Need Advice on Boundaries

Old 02-18-2008, 05:48 PM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 303
Need Advice on Boundaries

A little background....my AH and I are trying to work on our problems. He has gone to one counseling appt., and says that he needs to go back. Good. I go to Alanon regularly, read the ODAT, and see a therapist regularly.

He continues to drink.

I have never set boundaries in our relationship (at least none that I have stuck with), and I think now is the time to do it, and mean it.

These are the boundaries I'd like to set.

- I feel my AH should not be under the influence when he is around the kids, especially if he is the only adult in charge (if I'm not home).
- Passing out, blacking out are unacceptable. I will file for a legal separation if this ever happens again.

Now, I know that he is no where near ready to quit his drinking, and I know I can't move him along in this. So, I accept the fact that he will continue drinking, and he has cut back/changed what he drinks. I realize this is not the solution, but for now, it is for us.

So my question is, how do I approach in letting him know my boundaries? Do I write them down, or verbalize them? And the wording? Do I say "I don't want you to be under the influence...." or "Being under the influence is unacceptable..."

I can't imagine that he'll be real happy about this no matter how I word it, but oh well.

Oh, and I also want to ask him to stop telling me things about me that he does not like, and does not feel. It's perplexing to me that the only thing I've said that bothers me about him, is his drinking (although there are many other things that go along with it).

He even said to me that he does not want to sleep in the same bed as me b/c he can't stand it if my toe even touches him. Also, says he does not want to give me a hug b/c he does not feel anything when he hugs me.

These type of comments are hurtful and I think I should stand up for myself and say "enough".

What a mess......

Thanks for any comments/suggestions.

Shivaya
Shivaya is offline  
Old 02-18-2008, 06:43 PM
  # 2 (permalink)  
I'm growing
 
Daisy30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Right where I need to be
Posts: 601
Okay, I am not good with boundries. My councelor suggested I read Codependent No More to help me understand them better( I have not go to the boundry section yet).

but I can tell you what I have done (and I am sure there are others who will have some better insight)

I do not tell him this is how it is ahead of time. When the situation arises I stand my ground and explain why. Only once, I do not argue or defend it.
There is no point in that because they already know the reason why.

Ex. The children can no longer ride in the car with him. The first time he wanted to take one of the kids somewhere I said "no". He said why? I said, "it is not safe". He did not question it anymore because he knew I was serious.

Unfortunately I do not think you are going to be able to get him to not drink when he is alone with the kids. You may find that you will have to take the kids with you or reschedule your outings to a time when you know he does not drink. I make mine in the morning so I know the kids will be safe

About him blaming you and saying hurtful things. I have found inorder to get it to stop I just stop engaging. He starts blaming me for something...I simply walk away and occupy my time elsewhere. Ever since I refuse to listen to what is not true it has really decreased in frequency. Also He is then forced to look at himself for his problems and not able to place the blame on me

Like I said I am just learning about boundries...this is just what I do
Daisy30 is offline  
Old 02-18-2008, 07:08 PM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Member
 
katyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sunny, AZ
Posts: 60
I'm not sure I'm the best person to respond, but I just want to say I'm working on the same things, too, and I wish you the best of luck!

Not being drunk around the kids sounds like a good start... a necessary step to ensure their safety. I think not passing out/blacking out may be difficult to enforce. What happens when he drinks away from the family? Can you be sure that he didn't pass out or black out? What if you suspect, but can't prove? What if he fesses up after the fact, will you follow through?

Just some thoughts, and warm wishes...
katyk is offline  
Old 02-18-2008, 07:24 PM
  # 4 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 902
I'm really sorry for your pain. I can relate to some of the horrible things he is saying to you because they have been said to me. Here is what my therapist told me about setting boundaries...

They are good to set, but I shouldn't threaten him with any action (leaving) unless I am ready to follow through with that (I wasn't then, but I finally did)

If you are spoken to in an emotionally abusive way (I think telling you he doesn't want to touch you and he doesn't feel anything when he does is abusive) then you should tell him that what he is saying to you is hurtful and not acceptable any longer. I told this to my xabf. He didn't like it, but I told him that if he spoke to me that way that I would walk away until he figured out how to talk to me in a respectful manner. Oh, and this is not just them trying to be "honest" about their feelings. It is them trying to hurt you as much as they hurt inside. I would be willing to bet he is repulsed by himself and just projecting that on you. Kind of a misery loves company scenario.

If he tells you that he knows you feel this way or that way, for example: "You're telling me I can't drink/use around the kids because you are angry that you can't control me," tell him that he can't "own" you (in other words, tell you how YOU feel" and that the reason you are placing this boundary on him is exactly how you stated, to protect your children. My xabf didn't like it either, but a few months of pointing out that he couldn't "own" me sank in and he stopped until I realized there was no end to his lying and left.

One more thing about your post. My xabf has been in therapy for a couple of years. I believe that the therapy is what got him to the point of admitting that he had a problem to begin with. Nevertheless, they often use therapy to "get to the heart of the real problem." It's a cop out. Mine tells me the real problem now is not the alcohol, but the years of depression that led him to drink, so he's focusing on the depression and not the alcoholism. I don't know what his therapist has told him, but he seems to be going along with it. Also, we went to couples therapy. No matter what I did, it was never enough for him. When I finally left, I realized a lot of the stuff he was bringing up as a "problem" in therapy was all a result of the insanity he created. There was a lot of manipulation even in the therapist's office. While it helped in some respects, I wonder how much it would have helped if he wasn't an active alcoholic and was capable of seeing the craziness of some of his complaints about me. They are some of the same complaints you had written about in previous posts.

Hope this helps. The more I read the more I feel I could just insert my xabf's name in many of these posts. Each story seems to be the same regardless of location, marital status or parental status. Alcoholism is a bigger beast than I once thought, and one I have come to realize I didn't know as much as I thought I did about.
NYC_Chick is offline  
Old 02-18-2008, 08:58 PM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dixie
Posts: 612
I think boundaries are very important, but enforcing them can also be very frustrating. The boundaries you wish to set are perfectly reasonable to us, but I'm not sure an active alcoholic will be able to honor them. Since he's not able to control his drinking, he can't possibly promise that he will stay sober around the kids, or that he won't pass out. Well... I guess he can promise, but I don't think he will be able to follow through. Perhaps a "blanket" boundary would serve you better than a specific boundary -- i.e., "I will not tolerate drinking or intoxication in this house or around our children." If he can't live up to this, what are you prepared to do? You have to have a consequence.

Whatever you decide, I would be inclined to write mine down and go over them with him at a time when he has not been drinking.
hope2bhappy is offline  
Old 02-18-2008, 09:48 PM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Member
 
LaTeeDa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Boundaries are about what you will and will not tolerate in your life. They have nothing to do with changing his behavior. That's what makes them to tough to enforce. You cannot "make" him do or stop doing something. You can only decide what you will do if and when something you cannot tolerate happens. So, if he drinks when he is alone with the kids, what will you do? That's the hard part. Whatever it is, you must be willing and able to do it, otherwise your boundary means nothing.

L
LaTeeDa is offline  
Old 02-18-2008, 10:10 PM
  # 7 (permalink)  
Member
 
denny57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by SHIVAYA View Post
Also, says he does not want to give me a hug b/c he does not feel anything when he hugs me.
I did not want to be on my death bed looking back at a hug-less life. All the boundaries for what he can and cannot do. All the boundaries circling around his drinking. I stopped saying he and started saying me - what did I want; what did I need; what life did I want to look back on - and would I be proud of that life or die a martyr?
denny57 is offline  
Old 02-18-2008, 10:46 PM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by NYC_Chick View Post
They are good to set, but I shouldn't threaten him with any action (leaving) unless I am ready to follow through with that

Oh, and this is not just them trying to be "honest" about their feelings. It is them trying to hurt you as much as they hurt inside.


" tell him that he can't "own" you (in other words, tell you how YOU feel" and that the reason you are placing this boundary on him is exactly how you stated, to protect your children.

They are some of the same complaints you had written about in previous posts.

Each story seems to be the same regardless of location, marital status or parental status. Alcoholism is a bigger beast than I once thought, and one I have come to realize I didn't know as much as I thought I did about.
Thanks NYC Chick...yes, I am absolutely ready to follow through with a legal separation if I ever find him passed out/blacked out in our home again. I've put up with this for way too many years, and I will not tolerate it any more.

The "trying to be "honest" with his feelings" part, my AH, now that I've given him an "ultimatum" as he calls it, has finally started sharing his feelings with me (all of them negative!). He says he has been holding all these in for so many years, and drinking to keep them in. But now they are coming out, and he even says that I am "forcing" him to get them out. Wow! I new I had power but I didn't know I could force him to get his feelings out.

And I can relate to the "owning" part. My AH always tells me how I feel (always something negative towards him). But I always stand up for myself and tell him I am the only person that can say how I feel....

LaTeeDa, thank you for your insight. I do understand that boundaries are for the things that I am willing to accept/not accept, and that they are not meant to change any behaviors.

Denny57, I think you are becoming my hero. No kidding. You are right. Good advice. I should take out the "he" and replace them with "me". So here we go.....I will not tolerate my husband being under the influence around our children. Period. End of story.

Again, thank you all so much for your thoughts. I would be really lost if I'd never found this forum.

Shivaya
Shivaya is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 08:36 AM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
 
LaTeeDa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by SHIVAYA View Post
I will not tolerate my husband being under the influence around our children. Period. End of story.
So now you just have to decide what action you will take if (when) it happens.

L
LaTeeDa is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 08:48 AM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Progress Not Perfection
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: "Further up and further in!"---C.S. Lewis
Posts: 563
First and foremost....Congratulations on your decision and boundary. Some great advice there on your boundaries being for you, alone. I am imagining that...as an active A (and we know alcoholism only progresses)...he will not be able to meet that boundary....So I guess you are planning to leave/kick him out at some point. I am sure you will love the peace and quiet. Good for you taking care of yourself and kids.

"He even said to me that he does not want to sleep in the same bed as me b/c he can't stand it if my toe even touches him. Also, says he does not want to give me a hug b/c he does not feel anything when he hugs me."

No offense, but this doesn't sound like someone I would want to "work things out" with.
You can't work on your marriage alone. It takes two. Is he capable of working on the marriage as an active A? I'm just saying...the "idea" that he is "working with you on your relationship" might be a distraction to you right now.

"The "trying to be "honest" with his feelings" part, my AH, now that I've given him an "ultimatum" as he calls it, has finally started sharing his feelings with me (all of them negative!). He says he has been holding all these in for so many years, and drinking to keep them in. But now they are coming out, and he even says that I am "forcing" him to get them out. Wow! I new I had power but I didn't know I could force him to get his feelings out."

Did you have plan B and C ect. already in place, before you gave him the "ultimatum"? If not, focus on that first.

What he has spoken to you is the "quacking" of an alcoholic. I hope you see these words for the "smoke-screen" that they are. He is trying to make you and your "supposed" issues the focus and not his alcoholism. Pure BS. I would not give any validation to his words at this point. I wouldn't even think about each thing he said individually. Imagine him as a bottle of liquor or, a hospital patient with a hospital gown on...who has also been drugged. You wouldn't listen to a bottle or a sick person, drugged, at the hospital. No different, IMHO.
Growing is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 09:03 AM
  # 11 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by Growing View Post
"He even said to me that he does not want to sleep in the same bed as me b/c he can't stand it if my toe even touches him. Also, says he does not want to give me a hug b/c he does not feel anything when he hugs me."

No offense, but this doesn't sound like someone I would want to "work things out" with.
You can't work on your marriage alone. It takes two. Is he capable of working on the marriage as an active A? I'm just saying...the "idea" that he is "working with you on your relationship" might be a distraction to you right now.

Did you have plan B and C ect. already in place, before you gave him the "ultimatum"? If not, focus on that first.

What he has spoken to you is the "quacking" of an alcoholic. I hope you see these words for the "smoke-screen" that they are. He is trying to make you and your "supposed" issues the focus and not his alcoholism. Pure BS. I would not give any validation to his words at this point. I wouldn't even think about each thing he said individually. Imagine him as a bottle of liquor or, a hospital patient with a hospital gown on...who has also been drugged. You wouldn't listen to a bottle or a sick person, drugged, at the hospital. No different, IMHO.
Thank you, Growing. I believe that he does not really feel the way he says he does. Because, as you called it, it's the "quacking" of an A. But, then I also wonder, maybe he really does feel this, and I am in denial that he could dislike me so much.

The thing is, I really like myself, inside and out. It probably sounds conceited, but I do. I can't understand how he could have so much dislike for me.....I have great friends/family, and they all like me, so why doesn't he?

Obviously, I still have a lot to work out in therapy, Alanon, etc.

Unfortunately, I do not have a plan B or C, this is something I will work on. Thank you for that advice.

And I think the imagining him as a patient in a hospital, drugged, will be a very good way to not give any thought to the things he says. I did read a post on here about what alcohol does to the entire body, and it's no wonder he does not think clearly, what with his brain cells swimming in beer and vodka....it's so sad....

Thanks again, everyone, for your very helpful suggestions.

Shivaya
Shivaya is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 09:35 AM
  # 12 (permalink)  
Member
 
denny57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by SHIVAYA View Post
The thing is, I really like myself, inside and out. It probably sounds conceited, but I do. I can't understand how he could have so much dislike for me.....I have great friends/family, and they all like me, so why doesn't he?
I went round and round with this one. Then it finally got through to me that I had to figure out why it mattered that he did like me. Why was it so important to me that I get him to see the good person I was. What issue(s) was I trying to resolve in myself? What need did it serve? And, yes, it's therapy and Al-Anon that continue to help me through this.

((()))
denny57 is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 09:39 AM
  # 13 (permalink)  
Member
 
miss communicat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 2,060
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa View Post
Boundaries are about what you will and will not tolerate in your life. They have nothing to do with changing his behavior. That's what makes them to tough to enforce. You cannot "make" him do or stop doing something. You can only decide what you will do if and when something you cannot tolerate happens. So, if he drinks when he is alone with the kids, what will you do? That's the hard part. Whatever it is, you must be willing and able to do it, otherwise your boundary means nothing.

L
exactly. boundaries are not a means by which we can control another person or how they behave.

once you are firm and clear within yourself of what you will or will not have in your life, it will be transmitted loud and clear through every pore of your being, including but not limted to the words you speak and the actions you take.

YOU becoming firm and clear within is not the same as becoming rigid. it is not the same as being cold. it is not the same as being unfeeling.

YOU becoming firm and clear within is developing the willingness to endure temporary disagreement or disapproval from those whom you are in relationship with, who may have crossed lines with you in the past. YOU becoming firm and clear within is not willing to endure abuse or intimidation or minimization from those whom you are in relationship with, who may have interpreted your mixede messages in the past as you condoning or co-authoring the cycle of codepenency. Prepare to be challenged. But know it will pass.

For me, I establish my inner clarity, pray and turn the situation AND the other person's response to me over to my Higher power. And theirs.

I wish you well.
miss communicat is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 09:42 AM
  # 14 (permalink)  
Member
 
miss communicat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 2,060
Originally Posted by denny57 View Post
I went round and round with this one. Then it finally got through to me that I had to figure out why it mattered that he did like me. Why was it so important to me that I get him to see the good person I was. What issue(s) was I trying to resolve in myself? What need did it serve? And, yes, it's therapy and Al-Anon that continue to help me through this.

((()))

this is the work, right here, that leads to having healthy "boundaries"
miss communicat is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 11:21 AM
  # 15 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by SHIVAYA View Post
I believe that he does not really feel the way he says he does.
Whether he does or he doesn't, are you OK that he acts like he is your teacher, almost giving you marks out of 10 in categories that he has decided measure your worth?

As far as boundaries are concerned, I know that it is quite tricky to understand the concept at first, but it does become easier with practice. And I had to start really small to "get it".

Boundaries are a method of controlling for myself what I am exposed to in my life. They are not a method of controlling other people, though, or changing their behaviour. They are simply a tool to minimise any toxic input into my life.

In order for boundaries to be effective, they need to be expressed in the form of "I" and they need to have an attendent consequence. So, "My husband will not drink around my children" is not a boundary. "I will not allow my children to be around my husband when he is drinking. If he is drinking, I shall remove myself and the children from the home for the day/week/month etc" is a boundary. Does that make sense? If not, I think there are some sticky posts at the top of the forum that might help.

Boundaries come into play in all sorts of ways and don't even have to involve other people. "I will not eat battery farmed chicken. If I cannot verify the source, I will not eat it."

BTW, boundaries are vitally important if you are raising kids. They need boundaries and are wont to kick until they find them. I urge you to seek out some books like those by Cloud and Townsend or Anne Katherine - both give some really clear info on them. And I have found that alcoholics are very much like kids in that they will push and push until they find resistance. Probably better to have that resistance a little closer than a situation where it becomes a total dealbreaker (if problem drinking is not already it.)
karmakoma is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 11:32 AM
  # 16 (permalink)  
Member
 
denny57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by miss communicat View Post
Prepare to be challenged. But know it will pass.
I just wanted to pull this sentence out of the post - it is so very important.
denny57 is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 11:37 AM
  # 17 (permalink)  
Progress Not Perfection
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: "Further up and further in!"---C.S. Lewis
Posts: 563
Originally Posted by karmakoma View Post
In order for boundaries to be effective, they need to be expressed in the form of "I" and they need to have an attendent consequence. So, "My husband will not drink around my children" is not a boundary. "I will not allow my children to be around my husband when he is drinking. If he is drinking, I shall remove myself and the children from the home for the day/week/month etc" is a boundary....Boundaries come into play in all sorts of ways and don't even have to involve other people. "I will not eat battery farmed chicken. If I cannot verify the source, I will not eat it."
Thank you KK! This really clarified things for me....
Growing is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 02:40 PM
  # 18 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,335
-I think the two boundaries you mentioned are good but you must be willing to follow through on the consequences otherwise setting boundaries is pointless and may exasperate your problems. These were examples of my boundaries:

1. I will not allow someone to use drugs or be under the influence of drugs in my home. I will call the police.

2. I will not allow myself to be verbally or physically abused. I will ask that person to leave and if he/she doesn't I will call the police.

3. My home is not a flop house for burned out addicts or their friends. Refer to number 1.

4. If you disappear and do not call to let me know where you are, I will change the locks and you will not be allowed to come back.

I wrote my boundaries down and gave them to my ex so he knew exactly where I stood and he stood. It also gave me something to refer to when he stepped on my boundaries. The consequences were written down as well. It forced me to follow through.
hello-kitty is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 03:35 PM
  # 19 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 303
Wow, I have so much work to do, things to learn. I am actually out of town these week (kids have winter break), so were visiting with family. I can't wait to get back home to talk with my therapist.

I am quite overwhelmed at all I need to think through. I guess I'll just take one step at a time.

I suppose the reason I care whether or not he likes me is because he is my husband, the father of my children, and used to be my friend.

I am very confused today.....

Thanks again for your replies,

Shivaya
Shivaya is offline  
Old 02-19-2008, 04:29 PM
  # 20 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,335
I suppose the reason I care whether or not he likes me is because he is my husband, the father of my children, and used to be my friend.
I care too - not that he likes me, but enough that I will not watch himself abuse himself with drugs and alcohol. I care enough to tell the truth and follow through with logical consequences. I care enough to do the right thing even if he doesn't like it. I care enough not to support his drug and alcohol addiction or any part of that lifestyle. Actually, I don't just care. I love. I want to see him get better. I know that not enforcing boundaries only makes him sicker. I care enough to do something that is very difficult - draw boundaries and enforce them. And I am the only person in his life who has ever cared that much. He just uses everyone else. Me. He respects now.

(Not enough to stay clean of course, but enough not to violate my boundaries.)
hello-kitty is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:59 AM.