Alanon and compassion for the A and/or leaving the A?
Recovering Nicely
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
Alanon and compassion for the A and/or leaving the A?
I attend 3 or more Alanon meetings per week. My AH also has a Big Book and I have read the "To the Wives" section of it. Last week we had a speaker at one of my Alanon meetings, and she was describing how she is still w/her AH (he's in recovery now, although not very long into it) and how she always had compassion for him, loved the man but not the disease, would never leave him, etc. If you read ODAAT, it actually is more geared toward accepting the alcoholic and his/her disease, compassion, yet detaching. In Courage to Change, it is more geared toward changing your life. Anyway, I asked her after the meeting how she was able to maintain her compassion and love for her A while he was active, she could not even give me an answer. Isn't that what we are supposed to do at Alanon, speak to the speaker and get the tools we need to do these things if we love or want to stay in a marriage w/our A? She just looked at me with a blank stare and told me she just followed the Alanon program. Anyway, it seems so many of us here at FF at SR are in Alanon, and most of us have left the A in our lives. So, in essence, I know Alanon helps ME, and helps ME change MY life and MY way of thinking, but I'd like to know how in our preamble (at least at my meetings) they say "it is possible to find happiness whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not." It seems like we can't so we must leave. Or am I getting this all wrong? Your thoughts please.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
As much as I love Al-Anon, I don't believe in the statement "it is possible to find happiness whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not."
I simply disagree there. Look at some of the stories here. Having a raging drunk in your house seven days of the week, calling you names, peeing on the rug, peeing on your kids, alcohol-related medical problems draining your savings, alcohol expenditures making basic living expenses hard to meet, and making no effort at recovery....tell me where the happiness can possibly lie in that situation?
The fact that the speaker couldn't give you an answer says a lot to me.
Imho, Al-Anon is a wonderful program but not to be taken with blind faith. Our hearts know where our happiness lies, not the Big Book.
I simply disagree there. Look at some of the stories here. Having a raging drunk in your house seven days of the week, calling you names, peeing on the rug, peeing on your kids, alcohol-related medical problems draining your savings, alcohol expenditures making basic living expenses hard to meet, and making no effort at recovery....tell me where the happiness can possibly lie in that situation?
The fact that the speaker couldn't give you an answer says a lot to me.
Imho, Al-Anon is a wonderful program but not to be taken with blind faith. Our hearts know where our happiness lies, not the Big Book.
Becoming a Butterfly
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 904
The "To Wives" section of the Big Book was written by Bill W. and not by anyone's wife. I love me some Bill W., but I think he had little ability or right to tell wives anything. He'd never been the wife of a drunk before and he might be a bit biased.
http://anonpress.org/faq/files/read.asp?fID=56
The speaker might not know how she did it. It's like asking any couple how they managed to stay together for so long - they just did. Keep thinking tho, keep reading and talking. You will come to your own peaceful place.
http://anonpress.org/faq/files/read.asp?fID=56
The speaker might not know how she did it. It's like asking any couple how they managed to stay together for so long - they just did. Keep thinking tho, keep reading and talking. You will come to your own peaceful place.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 633
There is something she is getting out of the relationship that is keeping her in it. She perhaps knows why she stays but is afraid that her reason would sound ridiculous to someone else (her belief system? finances?). I could have given the same response as she did just 5 years ago, my AH and I were different people then, his behaviour was much more tolerable and I did not feel as though I was worth anything better. We all know that one of three things will happen.
He will recover or
She will leave or
He will die
He will recover or
She will leave or
He will die
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
I did find happiness whether the alcoholic is drinking or not - he is drinking and I am out of the relationship - happy.
QT, I can't speak for the woman you spoke with, but if someone asked me the same question, I'd give the same answer - I found myself and what I wanted by practicing the 12 steps of Al-Anon. For me that was leaving. For her, that was staying.
I can't measure myself by someone else's particular choices. I went into Al-Anon seeking serenity in my life and I found it.
QT, I can't speak for the woman you spoke with, but if someone asked me the same question, I'd give the same answer - I found myself and what I wanted by practicing the 12 steps of Al-Anon. For me that was leaving. For her, that was staying.
I can't measure myself by someone else's particular choices. I went into Al-Anon seeking serenity in my life and I found it.
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Originally Posted by GiveLove 
I simply disagree there. Look at some of the stories here. Having a raging drunk in your house seven days of the week, calling you names, peeing on the rug... ...alcohol expenditures making basic living expenses hard to meet, and making no effort at recovery....tell me where the happiness can possibly lie in that situation?
I know my abf loves me. I know I love my abf. I have learnt how to seperate him from alcoholism. I do not love him when he is drunk. Yet I have the confidence that 'it too shall pass' and he comes back to me. The times when he is with me are beginning to out do the times when he is 'gone'.
I focus on me. I have neglected me for 27 years, since the day I was born. I love my job. I love my friends, and I take a good deal of pride from my achievements, my daughter and the efforts (small as they may be) that abf is taking for himself.
I have learnt that he is doing what he is capable of doing in his recovery right now. Similarly, I am doing all that I can do in my recovery right now. We are both walking our path. He does not have to walk at the same speed as me. I can walk alone, and so can he. I have chosen to share my journey with him, and he with me. I do not give him time scales, I am patient with him because I can see that he is worth it. He is patient with me for the same reason.
Lily xxxxx
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 151
The statement: "It is possible to find happiness whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not" doesn't say anything about whether the A is living with you, used to live with you, work in the same building, or is your child living in another state. That's for a reason. AlAnon never gives directives about what a person should do about staying/leaving, divorce, etc. because everyone's situation is unique. The primary goal is getting the focus of one's life back on oneself, as living with alcoholism has the strong tendency to make the A the focus.
Some people find serenity by attening AlAnon and staying with their actively alcoholic person, others find it by leaving. Others are using the program to learn how to think about themselves for the first time ever, knowing that they may never want to leave OR hoping they find a way to leave. Everyone has a different agenda, but the program works for all of them which is the beauty of it. It's not like a weight-loss program where the obvious goal is losing weight. The "goal" is serenity, and that means different things to different people.
Some people find serenity by attening AlAnon and staying with their actively alcoholic person, others find it by leaving. Others are using the program to learn how to think about themselves for the first time ever, knowing that they may never want to leave OR hoping they find a way to leave. Everyone has a different agenda, but the program works for all of them which is the beauty of it. It's not like a weight-loss program where the obvious goal is losing weight. The "goal" is serenity, and that means different things to different people.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,812
It is possible... I have seen it.
It is called Detachment.
My personal view is that I dont want to be in a relationship that is "detached". I want to be interdependent with my partner... but in an Alcoholic relationship being interdependent is like a slow death.
Parents do it with their children all the time... they love the child but not the behavior of the child or their choices.... So you detach emotionally, financially and learn to set boundries that will allow for the relationship without the cost of your soul. I imagine it is very similiar with a spouse. Sometimes we are not ready to leave ... sometimes they are never ready... But that is their choice.... whatever the payoff is they still want/need it in their lives, so they stay and find alternative ways of living with and loving their Alcoholic.
I could not live with one, but I did manage to have a beautiful relationship with my Alcoholic mother... whether she was drinking or not... I set boundries for my sanity and I detached from her insanity.
It is called Detachment.
My personal view is that I dont want to be in a relationship that is "detached". I want to be interdependent with my partner... but in an Alcoholic relationship being interdependent is like a slow death.
Parents do it with their children all the time... they love the child but not the behavior of the child or their choices.... So you detach emotionally, financially and learn to set boundries that will allow for the relationship without the cost of your soul. I imagine it is very similiar with a spouse. Sometimes we are not ready to leave ... sometimes they are never ready... But that is their choice.... whatever the payoff is they still want/need it in their lives, so they stay and find alternative ways of living with and loving their Alcoholic.
I could not live with one, but I did manage to have a beautiful relationship with my Alcoholic mother... whether she was drinking or not... I set boundries for my sanity and I detached from her insanity.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 5,435
Originally Posted by Cynay
It is possible... I have seen it.
It is called Detachment.
My personal view is that I dont want to be in a relationship that is "detached". I want to be interdependent with my partner... but in an Alcoholic relationship being interdependent is like a slow death.
Parents do it with their children all the time... they love the child but not the behavior of the child or their choices.... So you detach emotionally, financially and learn to set boundries that will allow for the relationship without the cost of your soul. I imagine it is very similiar with a spouse. Sometimes we are not ready to leave ... sometimes they are never ready... But that is their choice.... whatever the payoff is they still want/need it in their lives, so they stay and find alternative ways of living with and loving their Alcoholic.
I could not live with one, but I did manage to have a beautiful relationship with my Alcoholic mother... whether she was drinking or not... I set boundries for my sanity and I detached from her insanity.
It is called Detachment.
My personal view is that I dont want to be in a relationship that is "detached". I want to be interdependent with my partner... but in an Alcoholic relationship being interdependent is like a slow death.
Parents do it with their children all the time... they love the child but not the behavior of the child or their choices.... So you detach emotionally, financially and learn to set boundries that will allow for the relationship without the cost of your soul. I imagine it is very similiar with a spouse. Sometimes we are not ready to leave ... sometimes they are never ready... But that is their choice.... whatever the payoff is they still want/need it in their lives, so they stay and find alternative ways of living with and loving their Alcoholic.
I could not live with one, but I did manage to have a beautiful relationship with my Alcoholic mother... whether she was drinking or not... I set boundries for my sanity and I detached from her insanity.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
yeah..sure, sure. It'll give me Hope...and faults hope too.
it's not AA or maybe it is AA becuase AA dosen't really want to break
up the family.
still in the me..me..me...I'm recoverying look at me. I'm doing good.
Until the next time.
Notice how the working of the 12 steps stops right at the 3th step.lol
yes..sure, sure..follow me, look at me now that i'm saint
She prays for me all the time
sure...he'll be gone just the same to AA as he did going to the bars.
For obvioulse reasons AA needs good AA soilders keep the meetings
open.
Then pretty soon as soon as you have hip up...you're not working
your codi program right.lol
I followed those gulidlines and wanted to belive.
blame the disease and not the alki....is like carnal sin for a codi.
It gets kind of blurrr into faults hope most of the time,
relapsed after relapsed.
She use to say that to me all the time after every relapsed.
Get well enough to go out and use again and again and again.
it dosen't happen overnite..3 months, 6 months
After the pinkcould fades. she'll slide back into her old behaviors...
gradually..then have WWIII about her going back to AA
Bascailly 3 years of that.
Sure...play by the rules and guildines.
mmm...the last time i check, that was the freaken problems.
Me playing by the rules and my agf not. Which is why i feel
like a nut job.
No it's not AA fualt..but it's like pulling teeth to get a recoverying
alcoholic to work the steps and continue to work it , apply it, live it.
it's posisble..my gf was sober for 5 years and yes it was pretty
much like AA said it was...But it's not curable..so they say.
So...i was still laying all my cards out...and leaving it in her
hands. Still dependent for her to do her part.
I get older, worn out...and she still can't complete 1 cycle
of the 12 steps.
lets just hope so and leave it in god's hand...
it's not AA or maybe it is AA becuase AA dosen't really want to break
up the family.
still in the me..me..me...I'm recoverying look at me. I'm doing good.
Until the next time.
Notice how the working of the 12 steps stops right at the 3th step.lol
yes..sure, sure..follow me, look at me now that i'm saint
She prays for me all the time
sure...he'll be gone just the same to AA as he did going to the bars.
For obvioulse reasons AA needs good AA soilders keep the meetings
open.
Then pretty soon as soon as you have hip up...you're not working
your codi program right.lol
I followed those gulidlines and wanted to belive.
blame the disease and not the alki....is like carnal sin for a codi.
It gets kind of blurrr into faults hope most of the time,
relapsed after relapsed.
She use to say that to me all the time after every relapsed.
Get well enough to go out and use again and again and again.
it dosen't happen overnite..3 months, 6 months
After the pinkcould fades. she'll slide back into her old behaviors...
gradually..then have WWIII about her going back to AA
Bascailly 3 years of that.
Sure...play by the rules and guildines.
mmm...the last time i check, that was the freaken problems.
Me playing by the rules and my agf not. Which is why i feel
like a nut job.
No it's not AA fualt..but it's like pulling teeth to get a recoverying
alcoholic to work the steps and continue to work it , apply it, live it.
it's posisble..my gf was sober for 5 years and yes it was pretty
much like AA said it was...But it's not curable..so they say.
So...i was still laying all my cards out...and leaving it in her
hands. Still dependent for her to do her part.
I get older, worn out...and she still can't complete 1 cycle
of the 12 steps.
lets just hope so and leave it in god's hand...
Living in a Pinkful Place
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 7,545
I believe that each person's journey is different, not everyone HAS to leave.
I heard a big, strong man shared that it broke his heart to watch his wife drink, her dr got in his face and said the alcohol is killing her, she'll be dead in less than 6 months if you don't stop this.
This man calmly told the dr, I'm powerless over her drinking, but you are talking about my wife. I take her to her appts, I make sure she is feed, clothed and has a place to live - that is what I feel is my resposibility as her husband. If she chooses to keep on drinking and dies, I will grieve for her when she's gone. But I nor you can make her stop til she's ready.
He said I choose to stay til the end with my wife - not everyone can, but I want to and with the help of my HP and my program, I am still going to be ok.
He's a very serene man.
That's just one of the stories of people living with active A's -
my suggestion is seeking your HP's will for your life - each of us have our own path to walk.
Wishing you Serenity & Joy,
Rita
I heard a big, strong man shared that it broke his heart to watch his wife drink, her dr got in his face and said the alcohol is killing her, she'll be dead in less than 6 months if you don't stop this.
This man calmly told the dr, I'm powerless over her drinking, but you are talking about my wife. I take her to her appts, I make sure she is feed, clothed and has a place to live - that is what I feel is my resposibility as her husband. If she chooses to keep on drinking and dies, I will grieve for her when she's gone. But I nor you can make her stop til she's ready.
He said I choose to stay til the end with my wife - not everyone can, but I want to and with the help of my HP and my program, I am still going to be ok.
He's a very serene man.
That's just one of the stories of people living with active A's -
my suggestion is seeking your HP's will for your life - each of us have our own path to walk.
Wishing you Serenity & Joy,
Rita
My Cape Is at The Cleaners
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Metropolis
Posts: 1,117
What I have found in the years that I’ve been in Alanon, is that it only works while both are in program.
Still it’s rough after that.
I have many friends who are couples but I say about 95% do not stay together down the road.
Those who stay with an active drinker pretty much call it quits after awhile they are in the program.
I think it’s because that fog clears in their heads and they get to see the light.
Now this is only what I have found, within 4yrs and countless stories in program.
Program is growth and as you grow you learn and are willing to accept better in your life.
Still it’s rough after that.
I have many friends who are couples but I say about 95% do not stay together down the road.
Those who stay with an active drinker pretty much call it quits after awhile they are in the program.
I think it’s because that fog clears in their heads and they get to see the light.
Now this is only what I have found, within 4yrs and countless stories in program.
Program is growth and as you grow you learn and are willing to accept better in your life.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: looking for the sun in cold MN
Posts: 775
I always questioned detachment. I get the idea- and for me, it would mean detaching from my Ah 90% of the time- what kind of relationship is that? Some people have no problem with detaching from their A and living their own life. Does that mean they are really happy? I don't know. I want to be able to live my own life and detach where necessary- I do it with my abusive, moody dad, my daughter when she's throwing a fit, co-workers with issues. . . but with my Ah it meant barely having any sort of meaningful relationship. Whether he was drinking or not he was incredibly difficult to live with. That's just not for me. I think "whether the alcoholic is drinking or not" can mean many things- living with the A or not. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 221
I still love my ex husband, despite all that he has done in his alcohol induced insanity. He has been sober for quite a while and is now living with another woman. Yep, I love him because he is a big part of my life, my baby's father, and... a part of me. But, I could not live with him. After a while, I stopped taking his binges personally, so I guess one could say that I detached. But. A big BUT. Living in the same household with a person who not only could not be held accountable for his actions, but who made my life infinitely more difficult was too much.
Some women live with what they call "functional" alcoholics. My ex husband lost his job and was unemployed for nearly two years, drinking ALL the time, spending the money that I was earning and that was meant for household finances and baby care. My life turned into living hell. No detachment in the world would have helped me stay rational and accepting of his disease. There was no serenity in that household. So I left.
As a counselor, I always tell my clients that I am simply there to coordinate resources. I do not presume to make decisions for anyone, because only the person knows himself or herself best. No book or person will, or should, dictate how to bring peace into your life--it's your responsibility to find your way. Read the stories, talk to others, gather the info, and make the very best decision for you.
Some women live with what they call "functional" alcoholics. My ex husband lost his job and was unemployed for nearly two years, drinking ALL the time, spending the money that I was earning and that was meant for household finances and baby care. My life turned into living hell. No detachment in the world would have helped me stay rational and accepting of his disease. There was no serenity in that household. So I left.
As a counselor, I always tell my clients that I am simply there to coordinate resources. I do not presume to make decisions for anyone, because only the person knows himself or herself best. No book or person will, or should, dictate how to bring peace into your life--it's your responsibility to find your way. Read the stories, talk to others, gather the info, and make the very best decision for you.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
For a long time I couldn't figure out how I could possibly accept him exactly as he was. Picture me stomping my feet and yelling NO! like a three-year-old. 
Then one day the light bulb came on. Accepting him did not have to mean living with him. Wow, what a concept! I don't know why I had such a hard time separating the two.
L
Then one day the light bulb came on. Accepting him did not have to mean living with him. Wow, what a concept! I don't know why I had such a hard time separating the two.
L
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
Then one day the light bulb came on. Accepting him did not have to mean living with him. Wow, what a concept! I
L
L
Power is not having to respond
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wabbit Hole
Posts: 1,923
I have to wonder if this speaker was physically abused, financially ruined and so stressed out that she couldn't function any more, or, if she had a decent alcoholic who drank, got drunk, and passed out-end of story.
There are some people who can make it through their spouses recovery. Then there are those of us who can't take it any longer and believe our lives would be better off without the alcoholic. It's up to each individual to decide since every relationship is so different.
I still had compassion on the x, but I refused to be treated like that another day. I like LaTeeDa's comment that compassion on someone doesn't mean you have to live in the chaos with them.
There are some people who can make it through their spouses recovery. Then there are those of us who can't take it any longer and believe our lives would be better off without the alcoholic. It's up to each individual to decide since every relationship is so different.
I still had compassion on the x, but I refused to be treated like that another day. I like LaTeeDa's comment that compassion on someone doesn't mean you have to live in the chaos with them.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,826
The story in the big book To The Wives is interesting but it is rather self-serving towards the recovering and non-recovering alcoholic and a tad condescending towards the spouses.
I don't know how people do it, I've never been able to stick it out with an active A. I've just ended up going and saving myself.
Ngaire
I don't know how people do it, I've never been able to stick it out with an active A. I've just ended up going and saving myself.
Ngaire
Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: WA Rainforest
Posts: 209
To The Wives was written by an alcoholic husband, in a time period when divorce was a scandal.
'Nuff said, far as I'm concerned.
Always consider the source, when some 'authority' is telling you to do something that puts you under another's power.
The Big Book isn't law, anyway. You do not have to do a single thing it says, if it doesn't work for you.
I am finding my happiness. That required cutting ex AH out of the picture. Does not matter one iota any more whether he's drinking or not.
Every alcoholic is different. As is every marriage. I myself do not see how anyone could stay with an active alkie for a husband, but people do! Maybe it's a shortcoming on my part that I couldn't, or maybe it's just that her AH is way more functional than mine is.
'Nuff said, far as I'm concerned.
Always consider the source, when some 'authority' is telling you to do something that puts you under another's power.
The Big Book isn't law, anyway. You do not have to do a single thing it says, if it doesn't work for you.
I am finding my happiness. That required cutting ex AH out of the picture. Does not matter one iota any more whether he's drinking or not.
Every alcoholic is different. As is every marriage. I myself do not see how anyone could stay with an active alkie for a husband, but people do! Maybe it's a shortcoming on my part that I couldn't, or maybe it's just that her AH is way more functional than mine is.
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
I hope you do not mind me posting here but after reading this thread I felt the desire to reply. I am a recovering alcoholic. I am in a relationship with a recovering alcoholic. I have only been to a couple of ALANON meetings and therefor am no expert. I have read and studied the Big Book quite a bit over the years.
I do believe that the chapter to the wives has some good suggestions but I take it with a grain of salt. It was written during a time when the man was considered the head of the house, the breadwinner, and the decision maker. The womans job was to stay home, keep house, cook, clean, and raise the kids. Divorce, pregnancy without being married, and many other things were considered wrong during that time period. The woman alcoholic was considered the exception. When people thought of alcoholics they thought of men. Things have changed considerably, some for the good some for the bad. If one reads the chapter while keeping in mind the time period then it is easier to put it all in context.
Personally, I believe each of us knows how much we are able to take. Sometimes boundaries and following through with those boundaries can be quite difficult but inside we know where they are. Although I would have been sad, angry, and hurt to have had someone leave me over my drinking I don't think it would have been enough to make me stop. I had to come to a point where my insides were so miserable that I was willing to admit defeat and go to any lengths to find recovery. I do believe that trying to support and encourage the recovering alcoholic is admirable and a wonderful thing to do I also believe that one has to take care of themselves as well.
Ultimately, the only person that honestly can decide whether or not to stay in a relationship with an alcoholic, recovering or not, is the individual in the relationship. Utilizing the chapter to wives as a general guideline is useful as long as one remembers the context of the time period it was written in.
Thank you for allowing me to post my thoughts on this subject. I admire the courage and strength it takes each of you to live with or around an alcoholic.
I do believe that the chapter to the wives has some good suggestions but I take it with a grain of salt. It was written during a time when the man was considered the head of the house, the breadwinner, and the decision maker. The womans job was to stay home, keep house, cook, clean, and raise the kids. Divorce, pregnancy without being married, and many other things were considered wrong during that time period. The woman alcoholic was considered the exception. When people thought of alcoholics they thought of men. Things have changed considerably, some for the good some for the bad. If one reads the chapter while keeping in mind the time period then it is easier to put it all in context.
Personally, I believe each of us knows how much we are able to take. Sometimes boundaries and following through with those boundaries can be quite difficult but inside we know where they are. Although I would have been sad, angry, and hurt to have had someone leave me over my drinking I don't think it would have been enough to make me stop. I had to come to a point where my insides were so miserable that I was willing to admit defeat and go to any lengths to find recovery. I do believe that trying to support and encourage the recovering alcoholic is admirable and a wonderful thing to do I also believe that one has to take care of themselves as well.
Ultimately, the only person that honestly can decide whether or not to stay in a relationship with an alcoholic, recovering or not, is the individual in the relationship. Utilizing the chapter to wives as a general guideline is useful as long as one remembers the context of the time period it was written in.
Thank you for allowing me to post my thoughts on this subject. I admire the courage and strength it takes each of you to live with or around an alcoholic.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
