Uncertain Me

Hi all --
Please bear with me, cause I think this sounds like I am on the wrong board, but I really need some insights, if possible.

I'm writing here because I have been married to an ACOA for 22+ years, involved for 28, and I need some guidance.

This past January, my husband walked out - tired and not wanting to keep going. He has never acknowledged his ACOA connection, although reading the list of ACOA characteristics and reading Beattie's book feels like he read the book and followed it to a tee, and his father was an alcoholic, mother enabler, and both emotionally shamed him. Part of our problem was his inability to ever speak up for his needs, my own attempts to "save" him (which I now recognize and know I can't), his passive aggressive avoidance of confrontation, and his constant need to please, even when I didn't want him to. He has always carried a deep lack of self-esteem, and though I know we loved each other, I don't think we ever knew quite how to allow each other in. We are both in separate counseling now (as are our 2 sons, 17 & 13, for help dealing with the separation), and while I don't think he has adopted the ACOA label, I know he is working on many of the issues that seem to be ACOA.

So why am I posting here? It's been 10 months and though we talk, he isn't interested in trying to recreate our relationship. He says he can't trust - me or anyone - and he doesn't want to try. Everyone around me says I should end this - and many refer to him as being selfish, cowardly, and childish. I know I can't fix him, and I know I can't protect him, but I also know that who he is is so much more than the ACOA characteristics. I'm being told to just call him on his behavior - tell him to "grow up" essentially - but I can't do that and not feel like I'm kicking him when he's down.

My questions are these: Does it make sense to believe in him anyway? Does it help - eventually - if he does achieve a level of recovery to have someone who believed in him still there? Or do I need to let him go and walk away?

I have loved him for more years than I haven't, and I hate to think that if I "give up" I might be abandoning him like his parents did. Still, I also recognize I might be addicted to his woundedness, so maybe I will help more by stopping loving him and hoping for reconciliation.

I hope this all makes sense. I really need some guidance and insight. (I know this sounds like I should be on DivorceBusting.com, but I tried there and no one could respond to the ACOA part of our relationship...)

Thanks

(I just found Confused Wife's post. I hope my post isn't too much of the same thing...)

Uncertain Me

I have just been reading the other threads in this catagory, and I have found a few posts that answer my questions fairly well. I can see that at least those who have posted would suggest I move on - that maybe our relationship was built on such unhealthy habits (by both of us) that I can't stay with it. At least one person mentioned the impact of guilt - and I know that's part of his/our problem. I HATE to let this go - 28 years commitment carries a lot of weight and pain in the losing - but maybe it's the most loving thing I can do.

Even though there are no direct posts, thank you for having this space. I have wondered if I was allowing him to push me away when he needed me to stay, but I see that maybe that's not the case.

The hardest part is that he loves and is committed to our sons, so we see each other and talk every day. But maybe I need to withdraw and let go - to stop hoping for quick miracles and potentially adding to his sense of guilt.

Anyway, thanks and I apologize for not reading further first...

Midnightfrost

Hmmm. . . . I chose to walk away from my dysfunctional relationship. We've been out of touch for about 3 yrs now. Recently we started talking again. Come to find out my ending the relationship was the catalyst for him to change. He realized that he couldn't continue on his destructive path and not lose the people he loved. In my case giving each other enough space to grow and change did us both a world of good. I don't think you need to stop loving him. But know that your giving yourself and him space and time, out of love, might be a good option. It's definitely not abandonment if he's asking for space and time. Doesn't sound like it could be if your both raising your sons. I know with my mother and my brother the more she pushed for reconciliation the more he pulled away. It seemed like forcing a relationship just put it all the further out of her reach. Any how hopefully you'll enjoy some time to focus more on yourself and healing your wounds. Lord knows you have to take care of the mother of your children so she can take all the better care of them. :comfort

Midnightfrost

Oh and welcome to the community!

DesertEyes

Hello there "Me", and welcome to SoberRecovery

You are most welcome to post here, and no, we don't expect anybody to just pop in fully educated and up to date on their reading assignments You go right ahead and post anything you want and don't worry about what other people have posted in the past. We keep this little corner of the internet totally stress-free, we have plenty of that in real life.

I've been in a few relationships with ACoA's, and they can be very challenging. As I see you have quite a bit of understanding about ACoA's already I'm going to recommend a more "advanced" book.

http://www.amazon.com/Struggle-Intim...4662902&sr=8-1

This is by Janet Geringer Woititz, who is one of the "guru's" of the ACoA movement. This is the older version of the book, which I personally think is better than the newer one. It brings together all the different concepts of ACoA and fits them all together into the puzzles of a relationship.

My ex-wife is also an ACoA, we met thru a sub-group of ACoA for people who were tortured as children. We had a wonderful marriage for most of 20yrs, but eventually her ACoA issues caught up with her, she turned to pain pills and married men, and our marriage died.

I completely understand about your husband much more than the ACoA part. He has great potential, as my ex-wife has. Watching someone you love self-destruct in this way is incredibly painful, especially when the solution appears so simple.

As far as guidance and insight, just take your time and browse around the vast amounts of material we have on this webiste. There's a _lot_ to read, so just go ahead and toss out questions as the pop up and we will all toss in our experience. And yes, you can ask anything, even if it's been asked a million times before. That's the whole reason we are here, to reach out to new arrivals and give them a place to work thru whatever is going down in their life.

I'm glad you decided to join us

Mike

Uncertain Me

Thanks, DesertEyes and MidnightFrost -
I am struggling with the pain of a dying relationship and I'm grateful for any insights. I know that space is necessary - at least I know it although I can't always feel it - but it's hard to let go when my life has been focused on him. I knew when we married - five years after we started dating - that he came from a tortured background. I think now that my own issues were easily ignored when I could worry about his needs. Yes, we both need the space, but this is painful space.

The part of this that's difficult is listening to others - my counselor included - who see his actions in cold distant judgment. Even if they are right - that I need to be able to get angry with him and to tell him how his actions are unfair or out of line - I have a terrible time doing that. But then I think that's exactly the problem - I keep wanting to protect him and make excuses for him when it's not mine to protect or excuse.

Why didn't anyone tell me that mid-life would be such a time of growing up? (We are both in our mid-40's)

Our eldest son is incredible and tells me that this isn't about him but about my husband and I finding whatever we need to be happy. Our younger son wishes and hopes we will get back together, but he freely hugs both of us and never chooses one over the other. With kids like these, I know I have to stay strong and find my own feet.

Thanks for being such a warm and inviting group.

Uncertain me

"Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is that little voice at the end of the day that says, 'I'll try again tomorrow.'"
-Mary Anne Radmacher

DesertEyes

yes, that is a very deep pain. As you browse around the various forums in this website you will find that many of us have lost relationships that were decades long. I found somedays that the pain was overwhelming, but I also found that with the help of the kind people here and in real life meetings of al-anon I was able to survive and overcome that pain.

well sure, this is the man you have loved all your life. Of course it's going to be difficult. I never have gotten angry at my ex, I have just slowly moved from shock to sadness and then acceptance. You are allowed to take as much time as you want, there is no schedule to recovering from something as intense as losing a marriage.

It sure is, isn't it?

You will, it just takes a little time. All of us are on similar paths in life, and we are all finding our way in our own time. It sounds to me like you are doing all the right things, and that you will find your way, one day at a time.

welcome again.

Mike

Uncertain Me

Mike --

Thanks for your generous and kind reply and welcome. I think this week is really bad because it started with one of those "it really is happening" discussions between my husband and I. It is so hard because he is so obviously in pain too; I just keep wanting to pretend that if he would just come back and we worked together, it would all be ok. I know, though, that with this genie out of its box - with his level of mistrust and acknowledgment of how much his parents' actions affected all of his life, and with my own awareness of how much I have lost myself to trying to save or love him "enough" - that we can't "just get back together."

I am trying to give myself the same amount of patience I sometimes have for others, and to forgive myself for things I don't need to own but do. And somehow I am having to detach and let go of my oldest son as well, although for healthy and right reasons as he gets ready to go off to college.

I need a good day when I can just say "Come on, World, give me your best shot!" instead of these current ones feeling so spent.

Anyway, thanks again.
A

GiveLove

Hi Uncertain,

I wanted to welcome you too. Your post caught my eye because of your comments about your sons....gosh, what wonderful kids THEY turned out to be! You are deep in the hurt of long-term habits you must somehow break, and it's a lot of physical effort. I hope you're taking good care of yourself, and being tender with yourself. You can't change your husband's decision to not work on your relationship. You are not abandoning him...he's making a decision and you are being forced to live with it. This is not yours to control. This is your time to surrender to the growing that you're being forced to do, and look at all your internal maps and compasses to see how you can navigate your way to happiness without him.

I have no doubt that he'll still be in your life, so you can let go of that breath you took in when you read "without him" But things are changing, and they are not in your control, so I'm glad you are opening yourself to the help and support that you will need to rekindle the joy -- in life, in learning, in your wonderful boys -- that's yours and no one else's.

Stop in any time. There are a lot of ACoAs here (like me) who are happy to offer an insight, a hug, or a friendly voice any time.

Take care of yourself, okay?

GL

Uncertain Me

Thanks too, GiveLove; like the others, your words show what a wonderful community this is -

Yes, the boys have turned out marvelously. That is one thing that the counselor they have seen has said - no matter how much shame might have been part of my husband's life, somehow we have not passed that on to them. Maybe they are the generation that breaks the seven-generations chain! They are also the one thing my husband and I can agree on: although we might have messed up between us, we have always done right by them.

I am taking care of myself in most ways. I have returned to teaching - a definite love and the right path for me that I had left four years ago - and found an amazingly supportive group of colleagues. I have begun to write again - also a love that I abandoned years ago - and I am in counseling for my own pains and damages that I haven't let go but need to. I also have had some wonderful friends and family who I try to get together with and who keep me going. I know that there are even parts of this year's journey that have made me such a better person and that wouldn't have happened if H hadn't left. Still, all of that said, I find I can't let go of the pain easily and I still want to try to hold onto this marriage.

You are right, though, Give Love, that this is out of my control and I must try to let go of that too. I think that's what shows me that my relationship with H isn't just scewed by his ACOA characteristics, but also by my own need/obsession(?) to save and fix him. I am finding that a combination of prayer and Buddhist meditation helps release that inner-savior a bit.

I feel welcomed here. Thanks for your support!
A

Uncertain Me

I feel like I've made all of the wrong moves this past week and a half.

I am finding myself recognizing all of the ways I have protected my husband, tried to fix him, waited for him to face his father's emotional abandonment, and such. Do you think that means I can stop these responses? No! Even when I think I am aware of what I'm doing - making excuses for him, trying to reassure people that his leaving me wasn't because he's a bad person but because he needs to work on himself (yes, I know, that one's gotta go!!!), trying to make amends by apology, still not standing up to him because I keep thinking of that wounded boy who's been abandoned - even when I think I'm aware and going to stop, I find myself struggling with maintaining the same habits. Somewhere I keep thinking I can still fix this (I know, GiveLove, I keep telling myself I'm not in control. Somewhere my personal internal volume button is turned to mute!).

My husband isn't alcoholic or addictive, but I think we were both - are both - co-dependent. How do I move on, especially when I see him daily? How does he move on when he doesn't let go of our boys? I don't want him to abandon them, but if he can't stay away, and I can't stay away, how are we supposed to break our co-dependent habits? I keep trying not to take his anger completely personally. I keep trying not to make excuses for him but just let things be as they will be. I keep trying!...

And somehow we are going to have Thanksgiving next week (!?!) and we are supposed to figure out how to do this without making the whole day absolutely painful for our sons(!?!?). The boys don't want to decide what they want on that day; they don't want to take that responsibility and I think maybe they don't need to. (they very consciously are trying to walk a neutral line between us, and we are trying to let them.) But I'm not sure what the right answer is - do I try to figure out how to have a dinner my husband is a part of or do I just let him be alone - even if he's also not sure what he wants? Can I just leave??? (I don't think that last one's an option)

Argh! I'm sorry. This hasn't been a good couple weeks.

DesertEyes

Hey there, Uncertain

You got lots of questions there. Where are you looking for the answers? You mentioned you had a counselor, are you getting answers there? How about al-anon? They're the experts at dealing with co-dependency issues? Have you been to any al-anon meets the last couple weeks? Your post sounds like you are in some kind of emotional "rut", repeating the same behaviors over and over again, expecting different result each time. What are you doing _different_ this time in order to get out of the rut?

You said your husband is not addictive, but then you say he is an ACoA. Those two statements are mutually exclusive. ACoA's are addicted to their past. When we are "active" in our addiction we keep reliving the emotions of the past, getting deeper and deeper into the past that no longer exists, and sacrificing the present we never experience.

What _actions_ are you taking today in order to get yourself out of that cycle of repeating useless emotions? Have you picked up that copy of "Struggle for Intimacy" I suggested?

Oh, and apologizing for hurting is not necesary here We allow feelings, unlike our "toxic families".

Mike (((( hugs )))))

GiveLove

Uncertain,

I just posted this link on another forum here, and I feel the urge to post it for you, since you are familiar with Buddhist meditation:

http://www.buddhanet.net/metta_in.htm

It's a meditation on sending love and acceptance....to yourself. It sounds as though you could use this practice.

Your habits have been developed over years and years and years. Forgive yourself that you cannot banish them all in just a few weeks! This is a journey, a series of small steps that you try hard to make all approximately in the right direction. The path to healing is rarely -- if ever -- a straight line. You will feel competent and centered, then you'll zig and zag a bit when you hit hard places, take a few steps back, a big leap forward, etc. etc etc. It's natural. It's maddening, but it's natural.

The holidays are a difficult time to make any major relationship changes, so I'm sorry you're going through this. Keep in mind though that they are artificial constructions....they are human creations, not a great tragedy if you must do them a bit differently at some points in your life. I spent a long-ago Thanksgiving in the company of fellow travelers overseas, eating fish and chips wrapped in newspaper and roller skating....all because I had separated from a dreadful spouse that year. It's not the end of the world to do something that's out of the ordinary. Can you and your boys go away and do something different and special? Or just you - to show yourself the gratitude you deserve? And by the way, the world is not going to collapse into dust if you just take yourself away for some well-deserved R&R. Though it may seem so...

I'm glad you're not putting your boys in the middle. If your husband does not want to be with you, please ponder whether you want to force him to. Isn't there a solution that suits both of you?

Hugs,
GL

Uncertain Me

Hey back, GiveL and DesertEyes -

You both are wise beyond years; I'm grateful for finding this spot. I'm not quite so lost today as I was with that last post, but I want to respond to some of your very good insights and thoughts.

Well, I'm searching a few places. My problem comes in getting out of my head and remembering to just be in the moment. I think I also didn't recognize many of these habits -- "think"? I know I didn't -- until my husband walked out. There has been a crazy growth curve going on this year. I don't think I ever saw how enmeshed I/we had becomed, and when he left, I fell flat. I'm not flat anymore, and I can now at least recognize I'm doing things that aren't healthy for me or my h.

And see, there's an example of seeing through new perspectives. I always thought that since my h didn't drink alcoholically like his father and others in his family - the one addiction we were "watching" for -- that he didn't have an addictive personality. Even when I read the Woititz book (thanks for the reminder!) and saw how some of what was happening fit, I didn't think of it in the way you point out. I haven't been to Al-Anon, mainly because I didn't think it applied; thinking of our situation like you describe prompts me to find a group.


I have found loving-kindness meditation; it's great. My husband's paternal aunt - who has done so much work to release herself from the toxic past of her family - teaches Buddhist meditation in a women's prison. She sent me books (not h b/c he hasn't brought himself to be in contact with her) by Sharon Salzberg, Gil Fronsdal, and Pema Chodron. All three are great, especially Chodron with her books entitled When Things Fall Apart and The Places that Scare You. I read these - and others - but I am not very good at keeping a consistent meditation regime. Your post is a good reminder to keep trying to put one in place.


I love that! I don't have the monetary wherewithall to do such a thing this year, but perhaps in the coming year! My h doesn't necessarily not want to be with us - especially the boys - it's just he (and I, frankly) find incredibly uncomfortable the thought of the four of us and my parents sitting around a table trying to make small talk and ignoring that elephant in the room. I think, though, we have come up with an idea: eating at restaurants seems to be less stressful, so we are going to go to a restaurant with the boys on Wednesday evening and then let Thursday just "be."

Thanks again; your perspectives help give me new ways to consider what feels like dead ends!

UM -- maybe becoming less uncertain?

DesertEyes

That's a pretty good description of what I went thru with my ex. I think it's a type of "shock", and I can't imagine how anybody would _not_ experience it.

That makes perfect sense. He does not _drink_ alcoholically, but he does _think_ alcoholically. Of course you would not know that, you'd have to have lived thru it first to be able to see it. That's why we all wind up in al-anon or counseling.

Seems to me like you've got a great start on unraveling all the pieces of this mess your husband has made. These coming holidays may be rough, but you will manage to get thru them. Your off to a new start to a whole new life for you and your kids, a life with far more clarity and awareness. Just keep posting your thoughts here, no matter how confused or clear they may be. That's what all the rest of us do and together we get ourselves into a better life.

Mike

Uncertain Me

Thanks, Desert -
You are so generous with your thoughts. I'll keep trying to post and at least, I know there is a great community if I need it.

Upwards and onwards...
A

Uncertain Me

Hi all --

I just reread this thread and wanted to update what has happened with this holiday. I think it was healing... at least I hope so.

We - my husband, two sons and my parents - decided to have a "family" Thanksgiving tonight at a Mongolian restaurant (nothing says T-day like Mongolia!). It was also my mom's birthday, so all way round it turned out to be a nicely "distracted" meal. The boys were comfortable and my parents happy and my husband and I were able to talk easily. Afterwards, we traveled the 22 miles home together - my husband and I - alone in one of the three vehicles we ended up with at the restaurant, and I managed to not push when I approached a topic that he said he didn't want to talk about. He also opened up a little about what he's doing for himself in terms of physical exercise and finding some mental peace. It was civil and calm.

Tomorrow we will go separate ways and then my husband will take the boys to a local hockey game.

One holiday down!

And a big thankfulness to all of you who have written such supportive and insightful answers to my questions. I feel like I understand things better, and with understanding has come a bit of strength to give my husband space. I don't know where any of this is going -- does anyone? -- but I'm hopeful that at least I can keep learning to break my co-dependent needs.

Happy t-day everyone -
Me

DesertEyes

Good job, UM. You guys turned what could have been ugly into a _good_ holiday. I think you can give yourself a pat on the back for that

Mike

Uncertain Me

Thanks, Mike --

It was a good thing. Today is still difficult, I'm finding, and I wonder how my husband's doing, but I keep thinking that he needs or wants this distance...

We also had a friend die from a freakish accident on Monday, and his visitation is today with funeral tomorrow. I asked H if he wanted to go with me, but he isn't sure. He said he's been surprised at how upset he's getting. Sign of renewed contact with emotions? I told him that whatever he wanted was fine with me, so we'll see if he comes tomorrow or not.

May you all find something to be thankful for today!
UM

GingerM

Another big pat on the back from me! You did great in what could have been an emotional train wreck!