The Love Illusion
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The Love Illusion
This is one of the most important passages I have read on SR in a very long time. It resonated with me hugely and I hope you don't mind that I started a new thread in its honour. Thank you goldenleaves.
This is an extract from an article taken from another forum I'm on (where it was reprinted from another site). It's not referring to alcoholics (so bits may sound a bit off track), but rather to a certain type of abuser (the other forum is a forum for abuse victims). I found it useful in helping think about my own feelings towards my stbx and WHY it was that I 'loved' him even though he treated me so badly. At first when I read it I thought it was being a bit harsh on ME, but then......
The following applies not only to romantic relationships; it applies across the board of all relationships including parent/child.
You can not truly love someone until they have revealed their characters to you. Why is this so? Because who we are is revealed by what we choose to do. Our characters are the sum total of the choices we've made.
Until you know someone's character you can not say in truth that you know or love who they are. This explains why so many marriages fall apart. People fall in love with their imagined version of the other person and don't become acquainted with that other person's character until enough time has passed for the consistency of their characters to be revealed. This is why short dating periods are often disastrous in the long-term.
We each have a will. How we exercise our will = the choices we make. The choices we make = our behaviors. The consistent behaviors a person exhibits is the truth of who they are. Behaviors are the revelation of character. Behaviors reveal what has been happening in the unseen realm of someone's thinking. When a person, like Cho of the Virginia Tech massacre, suddenly went on a murderous rampage, he was not acting out of character. He revealed what his character truly was. We have a sudden, horrific and stark revelation of what his thinking and small choices have added up to. What Cho did is who he is. Cho forced us all to see what an evil character had been developing quietly step by step and choice by choice while no one was really looking. We often hear people protest after being caught in some bad behavior that "it isn't like me to do this". No, it is like you. You chose to do what you did. You revealed who you are, not who you aren't, when you cheated on your husband or when you cooked the books at work.
If, after having a clear view of someone's personal character traits, you have respect, admiration and trust in that person then you can correctly state that you love this person.
Then there is the situation where you have gotten to know the personal characteristics of an individual, and you find that you can not say you love those characteristics. Yet you insist that you still love the person. Never mind that this person lies to you, cheats on you, slanders you to others, even physically abuses you...you tenaciously insist you hate their character traits but you love the person. It is this so-called "love" which justifies why you are still in this bad relationship. Whatever the reason for it (there can be many), this is describing someone who has created a fantasy around the objectionable character. They are not in love with the person...they are in love with the idea of who they've decided this person is in spite of the evidence to the contrary. This is not reality-based thinking. To insist a person is "good" despite what bad things they actually do is an exercise in your imagination only.
Perhaps you insist that you love what this person could be if they only tried. This, too, is a refusal to live in reality. Can we please dispense with this sloppy thinking? Can we stop trying to fool ourselves in order to justify staying in a destructive relationship? Can we call things by their right names? Go ahead and insist that you love the rotten character, but quit doing it to make yourself believe you are a better person for doing so. Stop white-washing their character in order to convince yourself you need to stay connected to them. If you are afraid of leaving the comfort of the known for the discomfort of the unknown world of life without this bad character, then admit that truth to yourself. But stop pretending you love something that is hateful. Remember that a key component of mental health is the mind which insists on living in reality i.e. the truth. You are not doing your mental health any favors by engaging in these mental games which allow you to stay in a bad place. If you don't love what a person does then you can't accurately state that you love the person himself.
It is okay to love a bad person, but only from a distance. Don't insist your love for a destructive person is justification enough for staying close to them. You risk all that is good and beautiful in life in order to love the unlovable. Maybe you think that means you are a better person because you can love and unlovable, but when your so-called love means the destruction of your own well-being, and the well-being of the innocents around you, then I insist you are not as good as you think you are.
Food for thought.
Originally Posted by goldenleaves 
This is an extract from an article taken from another forum I'm on (where it was reprinted from another site). It's not referring to alcoholics (so bits may sound a bit off track), but rather to a certain type of abuser (the other forum is a forum for abuse victims). I found it useful in helping think about my own feelings towards my stbx and WHY it was that I 'loved' him even though he treated me so badly. At first when I read it I thought it was being a bit harsh on ME, but then......
The following applies not only to romantic relationships; it applies across the board of all relationships including parent/child.
You can not truly love someone until they have revealed their characters to you. Why is this so? Because who we are is revealed by what we choose to do. Our characters are the sum total of the choices we've made.
Until you know someone's character you can not say in truth that you know or love who they are. This explains why so many marriages fall apart. People fall in love with their imagined version of the other person and don't become acquainted with that other person's character until enough time has passed for the consistency of their characters to be revealed. This is why short dating periods are often disastrous in the long-term.
We each have a will. How we exercise our will = the choices we make. The choices we make = our behaviors. The consistent behaviors a person exhibits is the truth of who they are. Behaviors are the revelation of character. Behaviors reveal what has been happening in the unseen realm of someone's thinking. When a person, like Cho of the Virginia Tech massacre, suddenly went on a murderous rampage, he was not acting out of character. He revealed what his character truly was. We have a sudden, horrific and stark revelation of what his thinking and small choices have added up to. What Cho did is who he is. Cho forced us all to see what an evil character had been developing quietly step by step and choice by choice while no one was really looking. We often hear people protest after being caught in some bad behavior that "it isn't like me to do this". No, it is like you. You chose to do what you did. You revealed who you are, not who you aren't, when you cheated on your husband or when you cooked the books at work.
If, after having a clear view of someone's personal character traits, you have respect, admiration and trust in that person then you can correctly state that you love this person.
Then there is the situation where you have gotten to know the personal characteristics of an individual, and you find that you can not say you love those characteristics. Yet you insist that you still love the person. Never mind that this person lies to you, cheats on you, slanders you to others, even physically abuses you...you tenaciously insist you hate their character traits but you love the person. It is this so-called "love" which justifies why you are still in this bad relationship. Whatever the reason for it (there can be many), this is describing someone who has created a fantasy around the objectionable character. They are not in love with the person...they are in love with the idea of who they've decided this person is in spite of the evidence to the contrary. This is not reality-based thinking. To insist a person is "good" despite what bad things they actually do is an exercise in your imagination only.
Perhaps you insist that you love what this person could be if they only tried. This, too, is a refusal to live in reality. Can we please dispense with this sloppy thinking? Can we stop trying to fool ourselves in order to justify staying in a destructive relationship? Can we call things by their right names? Go ahead and insist that you love the rotten character, but quit doing it to make yourself believe you are a better person for doing so. Stop white-washing their character in order to convince yourself you need to stay connected to them. If you are afraid of leaving the comfort of the known for the discomfort of the unknown world of life without this bad character, then admit that truth to yourself. But stop pretending you love something that is hateful. Remember that a key component of mental health is the mind which insists on living in reality i.e. the truth. You are not doing your mental health any favors by engaging in these mental games which allow you to stay in a bad place. If you don't love what a person does then you can't accurately state that you love the person himself.
It is okay to love a bad person, but only from a distance. Don't insist your love for a destructive person is justification enough for staying close to them. You risk all that is good and beautiful in life in order to love the unlovable. Maybe you think that means you are a better person because you can love and unlovable, but when your so-called love means the destruction of your own well-being, and the well-being of the innocents around you, then I insist you are not as good as you think you are.
Food for thought.
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Originally Posted by denny57
My definition of love has changed enormously.
Recently, I have been contemplating my side of this, also. I claimed to love my husband, yet most of the time I was nagging, b*tching, judging, shaming, and belittling him. How is that love? Somewhere in my twisted thinking, I thought I was going to get him to behave 'better' when all the while I was behaving shamefully. Quite a revelation.
L
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I just love this passage and I know that I will be chipping in with lots of stuff over the next few days.
I look back and wonder how I can ever have thought I knew what love was. What I labeled "love" was actually a mix of need, lust, dependency, arrogance, control, fear and so much more besides. But love? Certainly not as I now understand it.
I so wholeheartedly believe in this statement. And I believe that we need to see how someone celebrates a win, deals with a loss, organises their life, disagrees with a friend, treats their family, interacts with waiting staff or shop assistants, manages their finances, etc etc etc. I was only talking to Denny last night about a guy who is interested in me, but I couldn't not be more motivated into keeping him in the "brother's friend" category if I tried. Not only has he been involved with 2 unbelievably dysfunctional women (I know them, so stand by his assessment) seemingly without any self-reflection, but also prioritised a massive plasma TV set over having a working kitchen, despite having custody of his 2 sons every weekend. Yet, without exception, he is everyone's Mr Good Guy.
People show us who they are. We just need to be aware enough to notice.
I look back and wonder how I can ever have thought I knew what love was. What I labeled "love" was actually a mix of need, lust, dependency, arrogance, control, fear and so much more besides. But love? Certainly not as I now understand it.
Until you know someone's character you can not say in truth that you know or love who they are.
People show us who they are. We just need to be aware enough to notice.
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: OHIO
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All good responses to what we just read.....another good question would be is to ask ourselves if we would want a daughter to be in love with the men who just left us or the ones we just left......would we recommend them to a female loved one??? I know I can honestly say "NO" to this question. How about you ???? Like the good book says: By their fruits they shall be known...how is it that we sometimes forget the very basic of lessons that we were all taught as children...and the article was so right when it says that none of us were really living in reality....only what we wanted or tried to make what we wanted our reality to be. So .... in a sense we trapped ourselves..Hmmmm - we were all in trouble.....while we were with "them". And now we are coming out of the fog and can "see" them for who they really are and better yet we "see" ourselves again.
This is jsut what I needed to read tonight! Thanks so much!
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Buffalo NY
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If you don't love what a person does then you can't accurately state that you love the person himself.
I will be the first to admit I am (still) guilty of this dualality of love.
Thanks for reposting it here, minnie.
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: FL
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Thanks minnie.
It takes time and patience to wait before I should offer my trust and/or make myself vulnerable to some people. I also think that taking this to an extreme would leave me with very few or even no close friends because the fact remains that they like me are not perfect and part of a healthy mature relationship involves compromise, tolerance and adjustment. People can change but generally actions do speak wayyy louder than words. That goes for me as well as the person I'm relating to.
But for a codie like me, especially at first, I needed to swing way farther in the direction of learning to be more discerning. Now, I am more able to accept others with flaws and am able to decide whether to take the good with the bad or just stay away if I am affected in a bad way. If I have a friend who tends to be negative, I'm usually able to enjoy her company and appreciate her finer qualities- and keep a healthy boundary in place.
Re the romantic side of this: I've always told my kids-'You most likely won't marry someone who isn't already your friend, so choose your friends wisely.'
It's amusing to me how what is shared here actually promotes old fashioned courting and waiting to get to know somebody before even considering the next step. Love and infatuation are very powerful forces but I think it's more than worth the time and effort to discover who somebody really is.
I take this post as meaning that knowing a person's character is most important, not whether they can meet a particular set of standards.
I love what Forrest Gump said:
"I may not be a smart man, but I know what love is."
It's not that difficult but I can make it complicated if I want to jump the gun and disregard, forsake or even trade my own needs for somebody else who doesn't value me or what I have to offer. The bible verse about not throwing my pearls before swine comes to mind.
Yes, this one makes me think alot. Thanks again for sharing this with us.
It takes time and patience to wait before I should offer my trust and/or make myself vulnerable to some people. I also think that taking this to an extreme would leave me with very few or even no close friends because the fact remains that they like me are not perfect and part of a healthy mature relationship involves compromise, tolerance and adjustment. People can change but generally actions do speak wayyy louder than words. That goes for me as well as the person I'm relating to.
But for a codie like me, especially at first, I needed to swing way farther in the direction of learning to be more discerning. Now, I am more able to accept others with flaws and am able to decide whether to take the good with the bad or just stay away if I am affected in a bad way. If I have a friend who tends to be negative, I'm usually able to enjoy her company and appreciate her finer qualities- and keep a healthy boundary in place.
Re the romantic side of this: I've always told my kids-'You most likely won't marry someone who isn't already your friend, so choose your friends wisely.'
It's amusing to me how what is shared here actually promotes old fashioned courting and waiting to get to know somebody before even considering the next step. Love and infatuation are very powerful forces but I think it's more than worth the time and effort to discover who somebody really is.
I take this post as meaning that knowing a person's character is most important, not whether they can meet a particular set of standards.
I love what Forrest Gump said:
"I may not be a smart man, but I know what love is."
It's not that difficult but I can make it complicated if I want to jump the gun and disregard, forsake or even trade my own needs for somebody else who doesn't value me or what I have to offer. The bible verse about not throwing my pearls before swine comes to mind.
Yes, this one makes me think alot. Thanks again for sharing this with us.
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 30
This is great. i think it should be a sticky 
I have been battling with this concept for a long time, because I cant seem to reconcile the fact that I despise a lot of ABF's character traits and yet somehow continually allow myself to stay involved with him. Though I do find it difficult to tell him I love him.
I have been battling with this concept for a long time, because I cant seem to reconcile the fact that I despise a lot of ABF's character traits and yet somehow continually allow myself to stay involved with him. Though I do find it difficult to tell him I love him.
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Originally Posted by thelightdawns
This is great. i think it should be a sticky...
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...c-reading.html
Mike
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Join Date: May 2007
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Originally Posted by minnie
People show us who they are. We just need to be aware enough to notice.
I agree Minnie. I was a bit worried people might think I was having a shot at them as some of the passage is fairly blunt!! But, as I said I found it very helpful in my own self reflection about why the heck I let myself be consumed with my supposed love for my stbx for so long. I'm glad it's been useful!!!!!
Another thing they say over on my other forum is that people often tell us who they are and we should believe them..... eg. You might hear 'I just want to do what I want, whenever I want' from your A and you say to yourself 'If only I could do xyz he wouldn't say that or he wouldn't feel like that'. They are telling you who they are, what they want, and how they will behave despite what YOU do.... believe them.
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goldenleaves,
I think you need to be blunt when you're talking about things like this.
Think about what we see and hear all day long in TV, movies, books, music. The whole thing of "love at first sight" (even though you don't have a clue how that person will treat other people, treat you, act under pressure, handle a drink, take care of a loved one, pay their bills......) is forced down our throats every day as the ideal, the thing that we should all aspire toward.
I believe in "lust at first sight" and absolutely believe in "codependency at first sight". But like Keb Mo says, "I don't know what it is, but that's not love"
Bless you guys for posting this
Hugs,
GL, finally learning what love is
I think you need to be blunt when you're talking about things like this.
Think about what we see and hear all day long in TV, movies, books, music. The whole thing of "love at first sight" (even though you don't have a clue how that person will treat other people, treat you, act under pressure, handle a drink, take care of a loved one, pay their bills......) is forced down our throats every day as the ideal, the thing that we should all aspire toward.
I believe in "lust at first sight" and absolutely believe in "codependency at first sight". But like Keb Mo says, "I don't know what it is, but that's not love"
Bless you guys for posting this
Hugs,
GL, finally learning what love is
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 125
Illusive Love
WOW
What an article. That was so me. I hated what I kept seeing, the actions that were "not like him", and stubbornly continued to love the man I wanted him to be.
Actions are his words.
Now, I am single, and was missing a ghost, a man who does not exist, who is an figment of my imagination.
I am replacing those descriptive words of affection with truthful descriptives:
liar, rude, condescending, jealous, abusive, mean, overbearing, underachiever, jealous, uninterested in me.
What a great article.
Thanks for posting it so I could find it!
What an article. That was so me. I hated what I kept seeing, the actions that were "not like him", and stubbornly continued to love the man I wanted him to be.
Actions are his words.
Now, I am single, and was missing a ghost, a man who does not exist, who is an figment of my imagination.
I am replacing those descriptive words of affection with truthful descriptives:
liar, rude, condescending, jealous, abusive, mean, overbearing, underachiever, jealous, uninterested in me.
What a great article.
Thanks for posting it so I could find it!
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
Amen, Denny. So has mine.
Recently, I have been contemplating my side of this, also. I claimed to love my husband, yet most of the time I was nagging, b*tching, judging, shaming, and belittling him. How is that love? Somewhere in my twisted thinking, I thought I was going to get him to behave 'better' when all the while I was behaving shamefully. Quite a revelation.
L
Recently, I have been contemplating my side of this, also. I claimed to love my husband, yet most of the time I was nagging, b*tching, judging, shaming, and belittling him. How is that love? Somewhere in my twisted thinking, I thought I was going to get him to behave 'better' when all the while I was behaving shamefully. Quite a revelation.
L
???
[B]
We often hear people protest after being caught in some bad behavior that "it isn't like me to do this". No, it is like you. You chose to do what you did. You revealed who you are, not who you aren't, when you cheated on your husband or when you cooked the books at work.
Then there is the situation where you have gotten to know the personal characteristics of an individual, and you find that you can not say you love those characteristics. Yet you insist that you still love the person. Never mind that this person lies to you, cheats on you, slanders you to others, even physically abuses you...you tenaciously insist you hate their character traits but you love the person. It is this so-called "love" which justifies why you are still in this bad relationship. Whatever the reason for it (there can be many), this is describing someone who has created a fantasy around the objectionable character. They are not in love with the person...they are in love with the idea of who they've decided this person is in spite of the evidence to the contrary. This is not reality-based thinking. To insist a person is "good" despite what bad things they actually do is an exercise in your imagination only.
Perhaps you insist that you love what this person could be if they only tried. This, too, is a refusal to live in reality. Can we please dispense with this sloppy thinking? Can we stop trying to fool ourselves in order to justify staying in a destructive relationship? Can we call things by their right names?
Go ahead and insist that you love the rotten character, but quit doing it to make yourself believe you are a better person for doing so. Stop white-washing their character in order to convince yourself you need to stay connected to them.
If you are afraid of leaving the comfort of the known for the discomfort of the unknown world of life without this bad character, then admit that truth to yourself.
stop pretending you love something that is hateful. Remember that a key component of mental health is the mind which insists on living in reality i.e. the truth.
You are not doing your mental health any favors by engaging in these mental games which allow you to stay in a bad place. If you don't love what a person does then you can't accurately state that you love the person himself.
Maybe you think that means you are a better person because you can love and unlovable, but when your so-called love means the destruction of your own well-being, and the well-being of the innocents around you, then I insist you are not as good as you think you are.
Then there is the situation where you have gotten to know the personal characteristics of an individual, and you find that you can not say you love those characteristics. Yet you insist that you still love the person. Never mind that this person lies to you, cheats on you, slanders you to others, even physically abuses you...you tenaciously insist you hate their character traits but you love the person. It is this so-called "love" which justifies why you are still in this bad relationship. Whatever the reason for it (there can be many), this is describing someone who has created a fantasy around the objectionable character. They are not in love with the person...they are in love with the idea of who they've decided this person is in spite of the evidence to the contrary. This is not reality-based thinking. To insist a person is "good" despite what bad things they actually do is an exercise in your imagination only.
Perhaps you insist that you love what this person could be if they only tried. This, too, is a refusal to live in reality. Can we please dispense with this sloppy thinking? Can we stop trying to fool ourselves in order to justify staying in a destructive relationship? Can we call things by their right names?
Go ahead and insist that you love the rotten character, but quit doing it to make yourself believe you are a better person for doing so. Stop white-washing their character in order to convince yourself you need to stay connected to them.
If you are afraid of leaving the comfort of the known for the discomfort of the unknown world of life without this bad character, then admit that truth to yourself.
stop pretending you love something that is hateful. Remember that a key component of mental health is the mind which insists on living in reality i.e. the truth.
You are not doing your mental health any favors by engaging in these mental games which allow you to stay in a bad place. If you don't love what a person does then you can't accurately state that you love the person himself.
Maybe you think that means you are a better person because you can love and unlovable, but when your so-called love means the destruction of your own well-being, and the well-being of the innocents around you, then I insist you are not as good as you think you are.
I failed to see her for who she was, because she was....well....my mother... a practicing/functioning alcoholic codependent with a mish-mash of symptoms that was neither fish nor fowl, but the worst of both, My friends were saying Andrew, don't give up your business and your whole life without getting something in writing. I was like "it's my mother, she'll 'watch my back', she'll never 'do me wrong'."
I couldn't have been more wrong, she was looking out "for her" from beginning to end, she lied to me from beginning to end.
If I "pulled her covers" she would dock my pay hundreds of dollars to let me know "who was in charge".
I ended up going down the path many of us have taken here, by the end, before I left I was, to paraphrase:
I claimed to love my mother, yet by the end I was nagging, b*tching, judging, and yelling. How is that love? Somewhere in my twisted thinking, I thought I was going to get her to behave 'better' when all the while that whole last year I was behaving shamefully.
I am still "muddled" about my emotions concerning this even though I have worked my steps around this.
How is someone supposed to stay healthy in such an unhealthy situation.
Well, I know now, the answer is, "you don't"
As far as I am concerned what she did to me was absolutely unforgivable, yet eventually my behavior in return was poor. The last words I spoke to her were "I will never speak to you again, Good Bye."
I am still comfortable with that decision.
So I have written out the amends I need to make to her, and it has moved from the "never" column to the "maybe" or "delayed" column.
More time is needed for me to forgive her, and I won't be forgiving her for her, but for me, so I don't have to carry this with me for the rest of my life.
I did have a part though, and it's a bitter pill, most of the time I'm pretty comfortable with saying "I was wrong" but this one I am still stuck saying and getting past "I was wronged"
Last edited by Ago; 06-20-2009 at 01:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
I claimed to love my husband, yet most of the time I was nagging, b*tching, judging, shaming, and belittling him. How is that love? Somewhere in my twisted thinking, I thought I was going to get him to behave 'better' when all the while I was behaving shamefully. Quite a revelation.
L
L
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