Publice Service Anouncement - Please Read
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Publice Service Anouncement - Please Read
Publice Service Anouncement - Please Read
The short version:
One of the symptoms of my "disease" of codependency is that I start to disrespect other people's pain by assuming an attitude of superiority and telling them what I think is best for them. I presume that because I was once in a similar situation as a newcomer I happen to know what is best for them. If I do this enough I become "enmeshed" with the newcomer, which is another word for codependency. I focus so much on fixing _them_ that I become oblivious to my own issues.
In al-anon we say that if I am pointing a finger at a newcomer, telling them what they should do in their lives, I have three times as many fingers pointing at me.
My sponsor has taught me that the best way to find out just how good my recovery really is doing is to simply count how many times I say "you should", "you ought to", or "you need to learn the same way I did". Every time I use the word "you", instead of the word "I" means that I need to do the 12 steps all over again. Starting with step one.
The long version:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ease-read.html
The Moderators' version:
If you are new to this website please take a moment to count the number of times a person says "you" in their posts. The more often they say "you", the more I disregard that post. The more often they share from their _personal_ experience by using the word "I", the more I pay attention to what they say.
Please accept my apologies for the recent rash of posts lacking in kindness and compassion. We are not here because we are well, we are here because we have deep pain in our lives and are working on bettering ourselves. Not everybody who posts is sharing wisdom, some of us are just lashing out in pain.
If you can, please show these angry people the kindness and compassion that they have been unable to show you. The primary purpose of SoberRecovery is to help the new people find the experience, strength and hope with which to overcome the hardships of life. To that end I ask you for tolerance, and liberal use of the "ignore" button that is provided for your convenience in your "user control panel".
Mike
Moderator, Friends and Family of Alcoholics forum.
The short version:
One of the symptoms of my "disease" of codependency is that I start to disrespect other people's pain by assuming an attitude of superiority and telling them what I think is best for them. I presume that because I was once in a similar situation as a newcomer I happen to know what is best for them. If I do this enough I become "enmeshed" with the newcomer, which is another word for codependency. I focus so much on fixing _them_ that I become oblivious to my own issues.
In al-anon we say that if I am pointing a finger at a newcomer, telling them what they should do in their lives, I have three times as many fingers pointing at me.
My sponsor has taught me that the best way to find out just how good my recovery really is doing is to simply count how many times I say "you should", "you ought to", or "you need to learn the same way I did". Every time I use the word "you", instead of the word "I" means that I need to do the 12 steps all over again. Starting with step one.
The long version:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ease-read.html
The Moderators' version:
If you are new to this website please take a moment to count the number of times a person says "you" in their posts. The more often they say "you", the more I disregard that post. The more often they share from their _personal_ experience by using the word "I", the more I pay attention to what they say.
Please accept my apologies for the recent rash of posts lacking in kindness and compassion. We are not here because we are well, we are here because we have deep pain in our lives and are working on bettering ourselves. Not everybody who posts is sharing wisdom, some of us are just lashing out in pain.
If you can, please show these angry people the kindness and compassion that they have been unable to show you. The primary purpose of SoberRecovery is to help the new people find the experience, strength and hope with which to overcome the hardships of life. To that end I ask you for tolerance, and liberal use of the "ignore" button that is provided for your convenience in your "user control panel".
Mike
Moderator, Friends and Family of Alcoholics forum.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Hey there Cats 
The "ignore" feature lets you make a list of people who's posts you don't ever want to see. That way you can "ignore" them and not have to deal with them. Just don't set it to ignore yourself, cuz I did that once and it can seriously confuse you
Mike
The "ignore" feature lets you make a list of people who's posts you don't ever want to see. That way you can "ignore" them and not have to deal with them. Just don't set it to ignore yourself, cuz I did that once and it can seriously confuse you
Mike
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by DesertEyes 
The more often they share from their _personal_ experience by using the word "I", the more I pay attention to what they say.
L
get it, give it, grow in it
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calif coast
Posts: 3,167
Just the reminder I needed
My 23 y o son just moved back home in Aug. after 5 yrs. of drug addiction and estrangement. I had been in recovery with the help of Al-Anon. I must say it was one thng to work my program when he was away and another thing nowthat he is living with me. I am his mother, but he is a grown man chonologically. Today I will not "shlould" him at all and bite my tongue so as not to give advice. He knows what he needs to do to make his life work or not. I am so happy to have him back in my life and off of drugs
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 405
disagree a little
At the risk of getting crucified, I like getting "you based" advice. You DO have more experience and can often see further ahead and more objectively then I can because of your experience. I really wish someone would have told me I really should get out instead of placating me (even my then therapist). I would have at least thought about that and considered that seriously.
Like the new posters who often can't see that they are making excuses and can't evaluate their behavior objectively.
It is really helpful to hear "hey wait a minute, this is NOT normal and you should really think twice!"
Like the new posters who often can't see that they are making excuses and can't evaluate their behavior objectively.
It is really helpful to hear "hey wait a minute, this is NOT normal and you should really think twice!"
Forum Leader
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In my little piece of heaven
Posts: 2,870
GNS,
None of us really know another person's situations... that's why we do better when we share our experience, strength and hope. (ESH) When I first got to Al Anon, I didn't understand why others didn't just tell me what to do. I was nearly incapable of making a decision for myself! In time, I learned to listen to what others were sharing... in Al Anon they say "take what you like and leave the rest". Ultimately, I gained enough self confidence and new knowledge to make some important changes in my life. I learned that I was ready when I was ready, and not a moment sooner.
Hugs
Cats
None of us really know another person's situations... that's why we do better when we share our experience, strength and hope. (ESH) When I first got to Al Anon, I didn't understand why others didn't just tell me what to do. I was nearly incapable of making a decision for myself! In time, I learned to listen to what others were sharing... in Al Anon they say "take what you like and leave the rest". Ultimately, I gained enough self confidence and new knowledge to make some important changes in my life. I learned that I was ready when I was ready, and not a moment sooner.
Hugs
Cats
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
This is a discussion forum where opinions are often sought and everyone should be allowed to express themselves freely. As long as members comply with the forum rules and avoid using profanity or embark on personal attacks, I think they should be allowed to communicate in a way that feels the most comfortable and natural to them. To tell folks how to communicate or share their feelings or attempt to shame them or force them to communciate in a manner which is comfortable for others is an attempt to control or change them, and we all know how pointless and ineffective that is.
I'd like to also take this opportunity to point out that newcomers who tell forum members to "shove it up their a__" should not be tolerated. Perhaps this issue needs to be addressed.
I'd like to also take this opportunity to point out that newcomers who tell forum members to "shove it up their a__" should not be tolerated. Perhaps this issue needs to be addressed.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 14,246
Great thread, Mike!
Another thing that _I_ ( teehee ) do when I give directives to another person is begin to, in a way, take responsibility for that person- AND the decision that they may make because of my comments. That's a responsibility that I am not willing to take.
In the best case scenario of that, I have in effect 'given a fish' instead of showing someone how to catch their own.
In the worst case scenario, my advice could cause great harm- by encouraging somebody else to say or do something that is NOT a good or even safe thing for THEM to do.
Another thing that _I_ ( teehee ) do when I give directives to another person is begin to, in a way, take responsibility for that person- AND the decision that they may make because of my comments. That's a responsibility that I am not willing to take.
In the best case scenario of that, I have in effect 'given a fish' instead of showing someone how to catch their own.
In the worst case scenario, my advice could cause great harm- by encouraging somebody else to say or do something that is NOT a good or even safe thing for THEM to do.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: pa
Posts: 260
Mike,
Since I started posting here, I look forward to your comments each time I log on.You are in my opinon one of the BEST people on here. Every time you post I feel really good and want to follow the path of peace you have chosen. I know it was through alot of hard work that you became so wise. I only wish to have half the serenity you have and my life will be okay. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, I wish I could hug you right now!!!!!!!!!!!!! Andrea
Since I started posting here, I look forward to your comments each time I log on.You are in my opinon one of the BEST people on here. Every time you post I feel really good and want to follow the path of peace you have chosen. I know it was through alot of hard work that you became so wise. I only wish to have half the serenity you have and my life will be okay. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, I wish I could hug you right now!!!!!!!!!!!!! Andrea
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Some of the people I would have hit the ignore button on ages ago have taught me things about myself I will be forever grateful for. A huge part of my growth has been in learning it is ok to take what I like and leave the rest. It has taught me to think for myself and act for myself.
I understand the original post is from a moderator, but I have to say it bothers me it is written in the "we."
I understand the original post is from a moderator, but I have to say it bothers me it is written in the "we."
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,358
I like to think the best that I can do here is to 'give' what I would like to 'receive'...understanding, respect, and constructive support.
I don't want to be beat over the head, nor do I wish to be coddled. Somewhere in between is what I look for, on both ends.
I'm not here to argue or debate...rather just get the best of what I need, and give the best of what I have to offer.
Admittedly, I sometimes fail in both. But I recognize it much quicker now.
I don't want to be beat over the head, nor do I wish to be coddled. Somewhere in between is what I look for, on both ends.
I'm not here to argue or debate...rather just get the best of what I need, and give the best of what I have to offer.
Admittedly, I sometimes fail in both. But I recognize it much quicker now.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
So, , like , I have to talk about myself ?
Gee, that shouldn't be too hard !
I do try and give advice from the alkies point of view. And I do try to keep it in the first person.
I also try to limit my opinions (or at least qualify them as an opinion). Most of what I share is experience or straight out of the Big Book.
Gee, that shouldn't be too hard !
I do try and give advice from the alkies point of view. And I do try to keep it in the first person.
I also try to limit my opinions (or at least qualify them as an opinion). Most of what I share is experience or straight out of the Big Book.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
If I was never challenged, I would now be married to an alcoholic (and the rest), undoubtedly with kids in tow to a father who is not worthy of the name and my life would be a lot more complicated. That said, directness is always more powerful when accompanied by an "I" share.
There is a line that may be crossed and that is covered in the forum rules. It is a long time since I have seen that line crossed by respondents or OPs. If this is an al-anon board, with al-anon "suggestions" and traditions, then perhaps permission should be sought for it to be official. No crosstalk is a noble and worthwhile goal, however is impractical, especially when moderation is at arms length. I believe that I have a duty as part of our global village to give some guidance towards the "norm", as I understand it, because empathy doesn't always get us very far, without further dialogue. I am far from perfect and the questions I may ask of others are without doubt those I am asking, or have asked, of myself.
I have never put anyone on ignore, because I know that the posts that elicit the most angst in me are the ones to which I need to pay the most attention. Projection and transference are not merely terms in a dusty psychological textbook. As I said earlier, if someone tells me I have green hair when I have auburn , then it is water off a duck's back, because I know the truth. When someone tells me I have red hair, and I get angry and, lo and behold, I remember that my mother has red hair, I have to take a good look at what is triggering such rage. (This is perhaps a very girlie analogy, so apols to the blokes.)
As Denny says, using "we" is somewhat presumptive, though I appreciate the motivation for your post, Mike.
There is a line that may be crossed and that is covered in the forum rules. It is a long time since I have seen that line crossed by respondents or OPs. If this is an al-anon board, with al-anon "suggestions" and traditions, then perhaps permission should be sought for it to be official. No crosstalk is a noble and worthwhile goal, however is impractical, especially when moderation is at arms length. I believe that I have a duty as part of our global village to give some guidance towards the "norm", as I understand it, because empathy doesn't always get us very far, without further dialogue. I am far from perfect and the questions I may ask of others are without doubt those I am asking, or have asked, of myself.
I have never put anyone on ignore, because I know that the posts that elicit the most angst in me are the ones to which I need to pay the most attention. Projection and transference are not merely terms in a dusty psychological textbook. As I said earlier, if someone tells me I have green hair when I have auburn , then it is water off a duck's back, because I know the truth. When someone tells me I have red hair, and I get angry and, lo and behold, I remember that my mother has red hair, I have to take a good look at what is triggering such rage. (This is perhaps a very girlie analogy, so apols to the blokes.)
As Denny says, using "we" is somewhat presumptive, though I appreciate the motivation for your post, Mike.
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 10,681
I get a little frustrated when I see newcomers with 5 or 10 posts and see a lot of members telling them to take action.
I really like the progress of the 3 A's.
Awareness, Acceptance, and then Action.
When I came to the forums I knew nothing about addiction. I spent a lot of time here learning the truth about addiction and codependency and then accepting that truth. Only then could I take action. Pernell, Smoke, and JT took a lot of time with me explaining all this. This process for me was very painful and I could only accept it a little at a time and take the risk of change a little at a time. It took me about a year before I saw real progress. If someone had told me to throw my son out to the curb when I first got here I wouldn't have been able to receive that.
I think there is a tendency to forget that a newcomer coming in doesn't have awareness and becoming aware and learning how to accept the truth takes time. Taking risks to change after that also takes time and sometimes the attempts at change fail.
I try not to tell anyone what they should do because I don't have to live with the consequences of their actions and decisions. They do. When I read the actions that others ahead of me took it helped me know that if they are living with the consequences of those actions so can I. Even the actions of those who have lost loved ones here helps me know that I can live with that consequence if it happens to me. I've borrowed strength from others many times when I didn't have any myself.
When someone shares that they are happy and life is so much better I want to know how they did that and how they got there.
Watching and listening to the actions you have taken and your experience helps me more than anything you could tell me to do. It leaves little reason for me to become defensive and block the message. Pernell always told me the hard truth about addiction, but he never told me what I should do. I just knew what I had to do after learning and accepting the truth. I never felt shamed by my inability to act immediately. I never felt shame for making the wrong decision. They just kept repeating the truth about addiction and codependency and that made all the difference for me.
This is just my experience and I know we are all different.
I really like the progress of the 3 A's.
Awareness, Acceptance, and then Action.
When I came to the forums I knew nothing about addiction. I spent a lot of time here learning the truth about addiction and codependency and then accepting that truth. Only then could I take action. Pernell, Smoke, and JT took a lot of time with me explaining all this. This process for me was very painful and I could only accept it a little at a time and take the risk of change a little at a time. It took me about a year before I saw real progress. If someone had told me to throw my son out to the curb when I first got here I wouldn't have been able to receive that.
I think there is a tendency to forget that a newcomer coming in doesn't have awareness and becoming aware and learning how to accept the truth takes time. Taking risks to change after that also takes time and sometimes the attempts at change fail.
I try not to tell anyone what they should do because I don't have to live with the consequences of their actions and decisions. They do. When I read the actions that others ahead of me took it helped me know that if they are living with the consequences of those actions so can I. Even the actions of those who have lost loved ones here helps me know that I can live with that consequence if it happens to me. I've borrowed strength from others many times when I didn't have any myself.
When someone shares that they are happy and life is so much better I want to know how they did that and how they got there.
Watching and listening to the actions you have taken and your experience helps me more than anything you could tell me to do. It leaves little reason for me to become defensive and block the message. Pernell always told me the hard truth about addiction, but he never told me what I should do. I just knew what I had to do after learning and accepting the truth. I never felt shamed by my inability to act immediately. I never felt shame for making the wrong decision. They just kept repeating the truth about addiction and codependency and that made all the difference for me.
This is just my experience and I know we are all different.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,358
Off topic to a degree, but still similar enough....
When I was talked to by the police and the domestic violence unit tied in with the police department they were 'very, very careful' as to what they told me, and, what they 'didn't tell me'.
They gave me suggestions to consider and hints along the way. But I was adamant in my position to 'stay' with my ex. 'We would work this out and see it through'...both his violence, and his alcoholism. I could see the look in their eyes....they thought they knew better...I thought 'I' knew better!
But what I didn't realize was, they very wisely and carefully planted a seed, and in time, as I was ready, it began to root and grow. As it turns out, they were 100% right! One of these days I'm going to find the ones that did the 'seed' planting and thank them.
Now, had they been brutally honest with me during my time of deep denial and everlasting devotion to my ex, I would have worked that much harder to prove them wrong...just to spite the nose on my very own face. Sick? Yup, you betcha! But I 'WAS' sick at the time.
I know I've made my share of mistakes in responses here. And, I might make them again in the future. But my motto that I try to live by is to plant a seed in someone's mind. What they choose to do with it, or when, if ever, is entirely up to them.
The only time I will take a harder, more direct stance is when physical abuse is involved. Still, I have a plan to address that too!
Note: I didn't find SR until 'after' my ex and I ended. I think that's a good thing for me because otherwise, had I been told to leave him, I would have left here without ever looking back. That's just me, and my experience(s).
When I was talked to by the police and the domestic violence unit tied in with the police department they were 'very, very careful' as to what they told me, and, what they 'didn't tell me'.
They gave me suggestions to consider and hints along the way. But I was adamant in my position to 'stay' with my ex. 'We would work this out and see it through'...both his violence, and his alcoholism. I could see the look in their eyes....they thought they knew better...I thought 'I' knew better!
But what I didn't realize was, they very wisely and carefully planted a seed, and in time, as I was ready, it began to root and grow. As it turns out, they were 100% right! One of these days I'm going to find the ones that did the 'seed' planting and thank them.
Now, had they been brutally honest with me during my time of deep denial and everlasting devotion to my ex, I would have worked that much harder to prove them wrong...just to spite the nose on my very own face. Sick? Yup, you betcha! But I 'WAS' sick at the time.
I know I've made my share of mistakes in responses here. And, I might make them again in the future. But my motto that I try to live by is to plant a seed in someone's mind. What they choose to do with it, or when, if ever, is entirely up to them.
The only time I will take a harder, more direct stance is when physical abuse is involved. Still, I have a plan to address that too!
Note: I didn't find SR until 'after' my ex and I ended. I think that's a good thing for me because otherwise, had I been told to leave him, I would have left here without ever looking back. That's just me, and my experience(s).
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Thanx everybody for your comments. I will take them all into consideration.
The policy remains as: "do not jump down anybodys' throat".
The strong suggestion to avoid doing that remains: "speak only in the first person".
Folks who stray from the first person are straying close to violating the policy.
Folks who are not comfortable with the policy are welcome to explore the thousands upon thousands of other forums on the web, all of which have different rules and policies.
Folks who can't handle any rules at all are welcome to go to the usenet forums where there are _no_ rules and plenty of throat jumping:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.r...lated?lnk=rghm
We can now return to the business of helping those in greater pain than ourselves.
Mike
The policy remains as: "do not jump down anybodys' throat".
The strong suggestion to avoid doing that remains: "speak only in the first person".
Folks who stray from the first person are straying close to violating the policy.
Folks who are not comfortable with the policy are welcome to explore the thousands upon thousands of other forums on the web, all of which have different rules and policies.
Folks who can't handle any rules at all are welcome to go to the usenet forums where there are _no_ rules and plenty of throat jumping:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.r...lated?lnk=rghm
We can now return to the business of helping those in greater pain than ourselves.
Mike
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