how do you "prove" them a drunk in court?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NOR CAL
Posts: 70
how do you "prove" them a drunk in court?
Hello all
I've been on the fence for a long time, I really want out, I just trying to get everything in order.
My only concern is getting custody of the kids, which I assumed would be no problem, although I want to be sure.
My question is....do I need to prove he's a drunk, uncaring, unfit parent in court?
I've never documented anything, I feel like I need to collect receipts or something to prove it. It's his word against mine, and because he's in complete denial, he claims he's a great parent. Maybe it's not an issue, I don't know. Just the thought of all the legal stuff makes me still hang around, but lately a divorce is all I can think about. Any advice from you guys would be appreciated.
I've been on the fence for a long time, I really want out, I just trying to get everything in order.
My only concern is getting custody of the kids, which I assumed would be no problem, although I want to be sure.
My question is....do I need to prove he's a drunk, uncaring, unfit parent in court?
I've never documented anything, I feel like I need to collect receipts or something to prove it. It's his word against mine, and because he's in complete denial, he claims he's a great parent. Maybe it's not an issue, I don't know. Just the thought of all the legal stuff makes me still hang around, but lately a divorce is all I can think about. Any advice from you guys would be appreciated.
Occasional poor taste poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
My advice would be talk to a lawyer that knows the laws of your state. Don't use your lawyer as a therapist at $400/hr and talk about all your wows. Keep the conversation brief, business like and to the point. Go in with a list of questions written down. Do as much research on the domestic laws of your state on the internet prior to talking to a lawyer. There's a wealth of information out there and it's free.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 104
Do you have a lawyer yet?? I would think that would be the first order of business, that way he/she can properly inform you on what's best for your situation.
In Canada laws may be different, but custody usually goes to the mother, unless she can be proven unfit. That's how it worked in my case anyways.
I have a close male friend who had only visitation with his daughter. He was faced with a situation, where he believed his EX was unfit and neglectful. His lawyer told him to get a journal and document everything. Times when his daughter was crying when it was time to go home because her Mommy's new boyfriend was mean. When she would come to pick up her daughter wreaking of booze. Phone conversations with his daughter because Mommy wouldn't wake up (passed out cold) or she was left home alone ( she was only 9yrs old) It is always helpful to involve the police so there will be documentation of the incident and so on....
He eventually got primary custody of his daughter, his ex has supervised visitation.
Remember, it is about the well-being of the children. Get that legal advice quickly so you can start being prepared now. Many lawyers offer free consultations.
Have there been any incidents involving the police?? DUI'S, domestic violence, altercations with other's while your husband was drunk, drunk and disorderly etc. That might help your situation. Have there been any close friends or family members that have witnessed his bad behaviors?
I hope this helps. Your number one priority is protecting you are your children. Good luck in your journey!!
In Canada laws may be different, but custody usually goes to the mother, unless she can be proven unfit. That's how it worked in my case anyways.
I have a close male friend who had only visitation with his daughter. He was faced with a situation, where he believed his EX was unfit and neglectful. His lawyer told him to get a journal and document everything. Times when his daughter was crying when it was time to go home because her Mommy's new boyfriend was mean. When she would come to pick up her daughter wreaking of booze. Phone conversations with his daughter because Mommy wouldn't wake up (passed out cold) or she was left home alone ( she was only 9yrs old) It is always helpful to involve the police so there will be documentation of the incident and so on....
He eventually got primary custody of his daughter, his ex has supervised visitation.
Remember, it is about the well-being of the children. Get that legal advice quickly so you can start being prepared now. Many lawyers offer free consultations.
Have there been any incidents involving the police?? DUI'S, domestic violence, altercations with other's while your husband was drunk, drunk and disorderly etc. That might help your situation. Have there been any close friends or family members that have witnessed his bad behaviors?
I hope this helps. Your number one priority is protecting you are your children. Good luck in your journey!!
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Penny, being a "drunk" is not evidence in itself of being an unfit parent, at least as far as the courts are concerned. However, behaviours that are displayed, whether under the influence or not, are key to achieving what you want.
I remember when I was pursuing legal action against my ex - my lawyer wasn't interested in the fact that my ex had a drink problem, he was only interested in proven courses of action that he had taken (or lack of action where appropriate). In fact, that approach helped me enormously in sorting out the non legal stuff in my head because it forced me to look at his behaviour in more detail and see why I couldn't live with it anymore.
As has been said, document everything, research as much as you can, get everything in writing from him rather than just verbally, but write down and date every conversation you have with him relating to agreements/promises/etc and any abusive behaviour.
Think about the divorce as being a division of assets and visitation/custody. Leave the emotions out of that aspect of things, no matter how much he tries to make it emotional, and see a therapist for the emotional stuff. Divorce is a legal issue, the breakup of a relationship is something else entirely.
I remember when I was pursuing legal action against my ex - my lawyer wasn't interested in the fact that my ex had a drink problem, he was only interested in proven courses of action that he had taken (or lack of action where appropriate). In fact, that approach helped me enormously in sorting out the non legal stuff in my head because it forced me to look at his behaviour in more detail and see why I couldn't live with it anymore.
As has been said, document everything, research as much as you can, get everything in writing from him rather than just verbally, but write down and date every conversation you have with him relating to agreements/promises/etc and any abusive behaviour.
Think about the divorce as being a division of assets and visitation/custody. Leave the emotions out of that aspect of things, no matter how much he tries to make it emotional, and see a therapist for the emotional stuff. Divorce is a legal issue, the breakup of a relationship is something else entirely.
Occasional poor taste poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
Originally Posted by wpgwoman 
In Canada laws may be different, but custody usually goes to the mother, unless she can be proven unfit.
It's hard to prove either parent unfit unless they hand over evidence. Your ex might shoot himself in the foot like parentrecovers... or he might fight you on everything and anything. Best to get legal advice.
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
Even though I have a few years of sobriety now, when I divorced in 1987 I was very much a practicing alcoholic. I drank everyday, very large amounts of whiskey, and it was a well known fact by just about everyone.
I had a business and was a visible member of the community, in other words a "functioning alcoholic. I had never had a DUI or were there any hard facts to support any alcohol related workplace problems, other than I was drunk now and then, but business went on. No police related incidents. I was definitely a drunk consuming at least a fifth of whiskey a day.
I sued for and got 50/50 custody and even my own attorney told me "even though you are an alcoholic, they can't prove it." The point of the story is that without proof of either abuse with police reports, DUI charges, or at least work related problems such as dismissal for drinking, disciplinary action for the same or something that a third party can substantiate, it is very likely that custody in California is difficult to deny a Father. Obviously you want to consult an attorney for your specifics.
I am happy to report that a few years after I was awarded custody I did get sober and have stayed that way the past 8 years, but my point is that coming from the other side, custody is a tough fight without "hard evidence", all the people in the world, family, friends and such just saying "he is a drunk" won't necessarily mean all that much.
Please understand that I don't think in retrospect that I should have won the custody battle, but I did and in the state of California.
Jon
I had a business and was a visible member of the community, in other words a "functioning alcoholic. I had never had a DUI or were there any hard facts to support any alcohol related workplace problems, other than I was drunk now and then, but business went on. No police related incidents. I was definitely a drunk consuming at least a fifth of whiskey a day.
I sued for and got 50/50 custody and even my own attorney told me "even though you are an alcoholic, they can't prove it." The point of the story is that without proof of either abuse with police reports, DUI charges, or at least work related problems such as dismissal for drinking, disciplinary action for the same or something that a third party can substantiate, it is very likely that custody in California is difficult to deny a Father. Obviously you want to consult an attorney for your specifics.
I am happy to report that a few years after I was awarded custody I did get sober and have stayed that way the past 8 years, but my point is that coming from the other side, custody is a tough fight without "hard evidence", all the people in the world, family, friends and such just saying "he is a drunk" won't necessarily mean all that much.
Please understand that I don't think in retrospect that I should have won the custody battle, but I did and in the state of California.
Jon
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
Originally Posted by Jfanagle
Even though I have a few years of sobriety now, when I divorced in 1987 I was very much a practicing alcoholic. I drank everyday, very large amounts of whiskey, and it was a well known fact by just about everyone.
I had a business and was a visible member of the community, in other words a "functioning alcoholic. I had never had a DUI or were there any hard facts to support any alcohol related workplace problems, other than I was drunk now and then, but business went on. No police related incidents. I was definitely a drunk consuming at least a fifth of whiskey a day.
I sued for and got 50/50 custody and even my own attorney told me "even though you are an alcoholic, they can't prove it." The point of the story is that without proof of either abuse with police reports, DUI charges, or at least work related problems such as dismissal for drinking, disciplinary action for the same or something that a third party can substantiate, it is very likely that custody in California is difficult to deny a Father. Obviously you want to consult an attorney for your specifics.
I am happy to report that a few years after I was awarded custody I did get sober and have stayed that way the past 8 years, but my point is that coming from the other side, custody is a tough fight without "hard evidence", all the people in the world, family, friends and such just saying "he is a drunk" won't necessarily mean all that much.
Please understand that I don't think in retrospect that I should have won the custody battle, but I did and in the state of California.
Jon
I had a business and was a visible member of the community, in other words a "functioning alcoholic. I had never had a DUI or were there any hard facts to support any alcohol related workplace problems, other than I was drunk now and then, but business went on. No police related incidents. I was definitely a drunk consuming at least a fifth of whiskey a day.
I sued for and got 50/50 custody and even my own attorney told me "even though you are an alcoholic, they can't prove it." The point of the story is that without proof of either abuse with police reports, DUI charges, or at least work related problems such as dismissal for drinking, disciplinary action for the same or something that a third party can substantiate, it is very likely that custody in California is difficult to deny a Father. Obviously you want to consult an attorney for your specifics.
I am happy to report that a few years after I was awarded custody I did get sober and have stayed that way the past 8 years, but my point is that coming from the other side, custody is a tough fight without "hard evidence", all the people in the world, family, friends and such just saying "he is a drunk" won't necessarily mean all that much.
Please understand that I don't think in retrospect that I should have won the custody battle, but I did and in the state of California.
Jon
Good luck and follow the advice of someone who knows the laws that are applicable to your individual case.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NOR CAL
Posts: 70
Well, thanks for the great advice. I searched the internet froom work today, got more info. Many have free consultations, so I'm going to take that step.
AH has a daughter who b/c of divorce lived with her mom out of state most of her life, and that has torn him up. And he loves his daughters very much, it's just when he picks up the bottle, that becomes his priority, and he doesn't look back. I know the thought of not waking up to kiss them each morning will hurt him tremendously, hopefully to the point of seeking recovery. I try to give him an ultimatum, but he just laughs, "where do I sign?" He thinks I'm bluffing. I need to follow through. I know when I actually retain a lawyer, then I won't turn back, so I'm a little nervous, and sad.
AH has a daughter who b/c of divorce lived with her mom out of state most of her life, and that has torn him up. And he loves his daughters very much, it's just when he picks up the bottle, that becomes his priority, and he doesn't look back. I know the thought of not waking up to kiss them each morning will hurt him tremendously, hopefully to the point of seeking recovery. I try to give him an ultimatum, but he just laughs, "where do I sign?" He thinks I'm bluffing. I need to follow through. I know when I actually retain a lawyer, then I won't turn back, so I'm a little nervous, and sad.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
Originally Posted by penneypoo
Well, thanks for the great advice. I searched the internet froom work today, got more info. Many have free consultations, so I'm going to take that step.
AH has a daughter who b/c of divorce lived with her mom out of state most of her life, and that has torn him up. And he loves his daughters very much, it's just when he picks up the bottle, that becomes his priority, and he doesn't look back. I know the thought of not waking up to kiss them each morning will hurt him tremendously, hopefully to the point of seeking recovery. I try to give him an ultimatum, but he just laughs, "where do I sign?" He thinks I'm bluffing. I need to follow through. I know when I actually retain a lawyer, then I won't turn back, so I'm a little nervous, and sad.
AH has a daughter who b/c of divorce lived with her mom out of state most of her life, and that has torn him up. And he loves his daughters very much, it's just when he picks up the bottle, that becomes his priority, and he doesn't look back. I know the thought of not waking up to kiss them each morning will hurt him tremendously, hopefully to the point of seeking recovery. I try to give him an ultimatum, but he just laughs, "where do I sign?" He thinks I'm bluffing. I need to follow through. I know when I actually retain a lawyer, then I won't turn back, so I'm a little nervous, and sad.
It is sad,all of it.
Mine loves the kids,too, but like you say; the bottle gets in the way of that.
Sorry you are in this position.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 596
My son drank pure vodka out of DH's vodka "hidden" in a water bottle twice. Once when son was about 2 and another time when he was about 6. I've documented just about every major drunk episode we've had for the past 10 years. I have tons of notes. Guess I always knew in the back of my mind that our marriage might not make it through his booze. He wouldn't fight me in court. I had an attorney tell me once she's never seen anyone take such meticulous notes. I've always known that if we split because of his drinking, I definitely don't want him alone with the kids. He's driven with the kids while he was drunk before, and been slammed drunk while I was gone shopping on several occasions. His promises mean nothing. I'll do whatever it takes to get physical custody of our kids should our day ever come. He'd give up any chance of custody before having his secret broken.
If he's ever given you reason to be concerned regarding the kids, try to remember when and what happened and write it down.
If he's ever given you reason to be concerned regarding the kids, try to remember when and what happened and write it down.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
Penny, you're in California ?
I'm not a lawyer, but I've been told judges here almost always rule status quo. That is, wherever the kids are now (and have been for a while) is where they stay.
If they're living with you now, and have been, then they'll stay with you. I've also heard that most judges lean towards the mother. (Even though I don't always agree with it).
But yeah, unless he has a criminal record due to boozing......
I'm not a lawyer, but I've been told judges here almost always rule status quo. That is, wherever the kids are now (and have been for a while) is where they stay.
If they're living with you now, and have been, then they'll stay with you. I've also heard that most judges lean towards the mother. (Even though I don't always agree with it).
But yeah, unless he has a criminal record due to boozing......
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