ShawMac

I cant believe I found this!!I just experienced a massive relapse and am in the aftermath and recovery from it(it only lasted a few devastating days). Ive been involved with AA for abt. 10 yrs. It has secretely driven me crazy! No one has ever understood me. I think the 12 steps are fine and I believe in God but the CULTURE of AA is abhorrent to me and Ive finally faced up to my feelings abt this and dont intend to return after this relapse.To me AA is a RELIGION that my spirit just cant tolerate anymore.I have been a chronic relapser "going out" 2-3 tmes a year for a week -10 days and then sober up. Im doing that again now. NO one I talk to can seem to understand my my attitude towards AA. I think the "spirit" of the 12 steps has been corrupted by the people whove "religionized" AA kind of like the way institutionlized christianity has corrupted the spiritual teachings of Jesus.Does anyone understand what Im trying to say?

best

Putting it in that light I sure can but I don't see it in AA, I only see it in a few individuals. If a person says the same about their church I would tell them...
Be part of the solution and stay to fix things by example or find another church.
So as for AA I would say... stay and be part of the solution by example or..find other meetings.

As for the relapses... You have been in AA for a time... Can you think of anything you have learned over time that could help you see when and why you make a choice to relapse?

ShawMac

Hey Best, Thanx for the reply--Could be Im suffering from a bit of "crankiness"--I realize it IS individuals(and by the way Im certainly NOT blaming my relapses on AA or theindividuals) and of course nothing man engineered or maintained is perfect---Hmmm--I will indeed give your thoughts serious consideration--MAYBE the bad space Im in at the moment has exacerbated only some irritationsof mine. Maybe Im too much of an idealist.I DO wish I just didnt see so much too be disappointed in. I'll
consider cooling my jets momentarily. I do think the 12 steps are agreat spiritual blue-print! Peace Out Best.

best

When I realized that others are not as much a perfectionist as me and that we are all at different stages of growth (some beyond me some behind me) and then come to an understanding that it will take me time to catch up with those ahead of me so I must allow time for those behind me as well.

Frustrated at times and wish that I would hurry up and learn or that others would hurry up and learn but not disappointed any more because I find we are all just where we need be at the moment.
The slogans come to life every so often.... Live and let live.

ShawMac

Yes Best, I have Been in that frame of mind before--just seems to have fallen out of it lately. Life represents a process AND a continuum. Why does it seem that those who are most egotistical, most judgemental,most close-minded and most non-accepting are also the most vocal , prominant and loud?

best

and all seem to be alcoholics as well?

Maybe it is part of who we are till we learn better?
Your list almost covers my traits of the past. (as well as moments that still show up every so often)
I would need add in selfish and prideful as well.

I found many times that what pisses me off about others....
They remind me of who I am or who I was.

Jfanagle

I have relied and continue to rely on AA for my past almost 8 years of sobriety, yet the comments by ShawMac strike a very deep and sympathetic chord in me.

I have no idea if my random thoughts will be of any value to you Shaw Mac but it is often a challenge to go within myself at meetings and remember that the concepts, steps, and traditions are firmly grounded in truth. I also have to remind myself that most of the principles of AA are not original to the fellowship. They are simply the "distilled" truths that those who have gone before me and achieved a harmony with life and they have left these truths for me to use when trying to achieve the same peace in my life.

In the last several years I have winnowed out a handful of AA meetings and folks in those meetings with whom I find a kindred spirit. Most of the people that I meet in AA are not my "cup of tea" but my behavior toward them and some of their thoughts that I find foolish and silly, is the way that I measure my growth and hopefully my compassion.

It was my "all about me attitude" during my drinking days that kept me drunk. I am nothing more today than a little better than the day I quit in 1999. I hope to be better yet in the future. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING magic about AA, and just as there is nothing magic about the basketball that Michael Jordan used, the magic was in THE WAY HE USED IT.

That is one weird analogy, but it was the best I could come up with at this late hour. Whatever path you chose I pray it will be the right one for you.

Be good to yourself,
Jon

best

For any hour, I would say that hits the spot.

ShawMac

Thank You so much Jfnagle--your post alone will certainly see me thru the day--The basketball analogy is mind blowing!Sounds like something you had in your back pocket for years,yet apparrently just came up with it-maybe you should write a book of analogy's and such(I love anaalogy's and get alot out of them. God bless you

shockozulu

How are you doing today ShawMac?

ShawMac

Ugh frustrated!!!!!!(just typed a reply and the comp froze before I could send it!
Im doing terrible-coming out of a nasty relapse that has left me drained-physically and emotionally.As you can tell by the thread I have some philosophical problems with AA(not by the steps or spirituality per se ) which has over time increasingly come to feel like a RELIGION to me (with all the attendant flaws).I have posted on the other forums as well--what a great bunch of folks!!--Im in a small town locale and my phone list is kindve failing me. life on lifes terms has been so difficult of late---Im an unemployed geologist whos cleaning houses and hotels(tough with self esteem issues)Gotta crawl outta this and into the sunlight again.Thanx for the post Alera. Any messages of encouragement/advice are indeed welcome. God bless!

Taking5

I honestly don't know how you can call AA a religion.

Is it Catholic? Jewish? Protestant? Buddhist? Islamic?

The answer is none of the above and all of the above.

While AA certainly has religious roots, and the way it is practiced (Lords Prayer) is religious in nature, that does not make AA a religion. No one cares - or for the most part, even knows - what church you go to, if you believe in God or not, etc.

This part of your life is totally private. I have rarely heard it discussed openly in an AA meeting. If I found myself at a meeting that emphasized this (they do exist - Celebrate Recovery is a Christ based 12-step group) I would find another AA group.

If you don't want AA don't go. They certainly do not have a monopoly on recovery and admit as much in the big book. But don't let the 45 seconds worth of God or other capitalized letters you hear in the average AA meeting alienate you from a fellowship that has helped millions.

ShawMac

Wow dgillz!-I dont think ive been so misunderstood in my Life!-we're obviously on two very different pages(by the way I believe VERY much in God).I meant "religion"in a broader sense in that one can make a "religion"out of anything(stamp collecting,Elvis memorabilia,mountain climbing--anything)Once established---Rituals,Lingo,modes of thought,practises,certain literatures become entrenched and ridgidly applyed and people eventually cant see the forest for the trees.The 12 steps are the core of AA and everything else(mentioned above) is a "religion" of a group of people trying to live and practice the steps.In my small town I have seen people openly berated ,stabbed in the back,driven from the room in tears,ignored(all kinds of thins) for not saying things in the correct manner,working steps in"the wrong order",mentioning drugs as they share etc.All Im saying is that once a religion is established ,intolerance ,non acceptance,divisiveness and other behaviors inevitabally creap in and kind of corrupt the original spiritual intent meant .I just kindve have problems with religions (so to speak) and im seeing these aspects in myAA and its always bothered me--Wheres the live and let live?--the "take it easy" and such?Anywhooo.... I dont know if I explained my notion well or not--and I may hit ameeting before Monday(so obviously Im not ragingly livid)--Just something that bothers me and wondered if anyone else could relate(t'sall).As per the responses some people did and some didnt(And Im not a confrontational sort--plus being sick and all--Iwont bat this around here like a baseball) Peace Out Bro'

windysan

i found aa to not be very anonymous.

shawmac, the religious stuff gives me the heebie jeebies too.

i try to stay away from all things religious.

and i never could tell the difference between "spirituality" and religion. all sounds the same to me but i'm a dumb@ss.

ShawMac

Yea Windysan,I hear ya abt the anonymyity thing. Religions have always bothered me because they always seem to set up an "Us andThem" philosophy.Spirituality should be an"Us" philosophy. My statement of not goin back to AA at the start of this thread mellows as I go down the thread--I mean I gotta have SOMEWHERE ta go---aaaannnndddd.........its not a perfect world and I cant have EVERYTHING my way..But I am interested in other peoples so called secular programs!

Taking5

Shawmac,

If I had what you described I would leave AA in a heartbeat. I guess I should count my blessings.

I do disagree that stamp collecting cannot be a religion. Have you ever been a member of a church?

How close are you to a large city like Charlotte?

You can't blame the bible belt thing because no where in more bible belt than lower Alabama.

At any rate I hope you find what you are looking for. This board is a great help.

doorknob

I guess I'm a dumb a$$ too, because the only difference I see between the two is the removal of proper nouns. It still walks like a duck...

Jfanagle

I have found in my case, and that my friends is the only case I am certain about, that spirituality is an individual set of beliefs and mores. The religion that I was raised in and no longer participate in was very much a "group" set of values that those who wanted to be in THAT particular group chose to adhere to.

In my life I have found a need to place trust in and rely upon a higher power, but my power is by no means something that I am trying to sell, peddle or even interest anyone else in. It is totally internal. I could not conceive of, nor do I care to try and sort out the day to day battles without this source of enlightenment. However, it is mine alone and does not require any outside validation for me to rely on the direction that I get from this universal mind.

Here we go ShawMac, this source of strength is as necessary in MY life as water is to survive. If I had to define or portray MY concept of Spirituality v. Religion it would not be the missing proper nouns, although that is a good way to set the two apart from one another, at least on the face.

Spirituality to me is just WATER, a must to survive, but without any distinguishing characteristics. Religion can be water, but comes to the end user as Perrier, Fiji water, flavored and unflavored. Devotees usually chose the water for the taste and have very definite opinions about the value of one over another.

I believe that I have to have "something" to quench my thirst for direction and to replenish my resolve when sheer will power isn't enough, but even "tap water" will do the trick if I get it often enough and in sufficient quantities.

Just my opinion and certainly MY experience.

Jon

ShawMac

Thank you Jfnaglz, words and thoughts of such inspiration.cant reply now--gotta hit the hay and work tomorrow,Thank you dgillz look forward to hearing more words and thoughts-Peace and Love to both of you----Just had an AMAZING IOP wherein Ihad the most incredible spiritual/life discussion (3hrs worth) IM EXHAUSTED--must sleep
God Bless EveryOne

Zencat

Hi ShawMac, I think AA would still be a good fit for you.
Try some different meetings or hit some speaker meetings. Above all, stay active in recovery whatever you choose. Peace out.


The qusi-religous nature of AA is a BIG TURN-OFF for me as well. AA may work for some but it will NOT work for me. I seek liberation from more than just drugs and swill.