minnie

As you can see from my profile, I have been around these parts, off and on, for a while. I don't confine myself to the F&F board, either, and have amassed a "situational" knowledge of the dynamics of addiction, along with a fair amount of reference information too.

One thing that always strikes me is the amount of postings on F&F about the partner, compared to those on any of the addiction forums. There is hardly ever a reference to a spouse or a partner over there and when there is, it is because the posters feel that the spouse doesn't understand their addiction/recovery or is nagging or such like.

I have a sneaky feeling that A) partners are looked down on for putting up with the behaviour and b) are chosen specifically because the spouse knows that they are unlikely to leave and therefore they effectively have free reign to do what they want.

Isn't it about time that the tyranny of other people's dysfunction ceases to play a part in the path of your life?





p.s. I watched an old re-run of Sex and the City tonight. You know, the "he's not that into you" one? Take heed......

minnie

Wow, an hour with no response. I either touched a nerve, or I was way off the mark.

As I said, I have been watching SATC re-runs. A lot of it is BS - how gay men think we should live. However, the one about the "not into you" thing was when the girls were giving all these reasons about why this guy didn't call Miranda. Berger said "he's just not that into you". Sometimes it really is that simple at heart, reagrdless of the sweet-talk. Us girls are great at analysing to the nth degree and then we fail to get what is staring us in the face.

LaTeeDa

I agree with your observation and actually posted about the very same thing months ago. I spent some time reading the addict/alcoholic forums for insight and was quite shocked at how few posts even mentioned husbands/wives/significant others. I wondered how much more effective recovery would be for the F&F crowd if we could manage to focus on ourselves as much as "they" do.

I also think it is interesting how much time and energy I spent trying to figure out why he did this or that, all the while missing the point that it didn't matter why so much as what.

Way off the mark? I don't think so...........

L

Astro

On the contrary minnie, there are times when I think she deserved sainthood for the BS she put up with. And while I might've subconsciously thought she'd never leave me, it doesn't surprise me now that she did, I sometimes wonder what took her so long.

Nah, you're right on the mark as always.

Sav

Yes, well, there's certainly truth in this, but the problem in that type of relationship is the "saints" learned this type of behavior usually growing up. It's the only form of "love" they understand. So it's natural they seek out these kinds of situations. They need a whole different kind of help to relearn how to act in a healthy relationship .

But I'd say it's also not always that simple. When you've got a real emotional attachment to someone, and years invested with/in them, it's hard to just simply "walk away". When is "enough is enough"?
The other problem is people who "whine" about there spouse's abuse of them forget that if they don't speak on the good things about them too, they'll paint a very one sided picture, and it's not surprising people would "look down on them" for being such "fools" and allowing what looks to them like "nothing but abuse". Maybe if they spoke of some of their spouses' good points, they'd get more sympathy...?

Mr. Christian

I could not agree with you more Minnie.

GlassPrisoner

Oh, those sneaky drunks !!

Minnie, you give us WAYYY too much credit. Choosing a partner based on your criteria would require thought, logic and reason. I was 20 years old for cryin out loud ! "Hmmmm, you know, I bet when I'm in my late 30s, and alcohol really starts kicking my ass, she'd be just the right kind woman to step all over".

Seriously though. I had no idea what my life would be like when I married my Ex. All I knew was that I loved her, and that it was her and I against the world. We were young, dumb, & full of *ahem* dreams. We raised two wonderful children together, and had a happy home until the **** hit the fan.

Besides, she left me for another man 3 years before I recovered. Obviously not the type you describe.

PurlBefore

HMMMM!
I believe A's don't post about their (theoretically) Significant Others is because they don't think about us unless:
1) We do something to frost their cakes - such as telling them to sober up
2) They want something from us - such as money or sex

I write this as I wait for mine to bless me with his presence and then wonder why I get upset that he missed dinner again and cannot even call to tell me he is alive.

I am working on just letting it go - let it go-----

Pick-a-name

While I think your point is very well-taken, I'd also like to remind us that one of the things learned in recovery by the A's is to become less SELF-focused and more other-focused. In active addiction (and codism) we are opposite ends of the spectrum on this.....both to an extreme that causes many problems for us. JMHO

Remember, "it's all about them!" and I think that takes some work to stop thinking and acting in that mode.

Barbara52

I wasn't able to decide to leave my AH until I decided to focus on me. It took a while to recover that feeling that I love me too much to put up with this crap any longer.

Its perhaps was a bit easier for me to reach this point because I've only been married to him for 4 years and 2 of those have been a little corner of hell. Yet it still took 2 yrs to recover that piece that had been hiding, that didn't want to play second fiddle to AH and wanted to take care of me in the way I deserve.

FormerDoormat

I think a fair assessment of our collective relationships is he's just not into you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you....

chero

I wonder if that is true?? You know I do think I was looked down upon by friends for standing by him all those years but it didn't occur to me that I was looked down upon by my AH.

I can't get over the fact that addicts in other forums don't talk about their spouse. That surprises me so much!

Astro, that makes me sad. I remember my AH telling me once about a client of his whose wife had left him after 50 years of marriage. He told my husband that he drank on the weekends and blah, blah, blah. My AH felt sorry for him.

But I know there are two sides to every story and who knows what that woman went through. If the man admits to being a weekend drunk who knows what he isn't admitting to.

I just thought I don't want to wake up and have been dealing with the same problems for 50 years! OMG!

I'm sometimes surprised it took me so long to leave.

minnie

When I started this thread, I had this joke in mind.

HER SIDE OF THE STORY
He was in an odd mood when I got to the bar, I thought it might have been my fault because I was a bit late but he didn`t say anything much about it.
The conversation was quite slow going so I thought we should go off somewhere more intimate so we could talk more privately. We went to this restaurant and he was STILL acting a bit funny. I tried to cheer him up and started to wonder whether it was me or something else. I asked him, and he said no. But I wasn`t really sure.
So anyway, in the cab on the way back to His house, I said that I love him and he just put His arm around me. I didn`t know what the hell that meant because you know he doesn`t say it back or anything. We finally got back to His place and I was wondering if he was going to dump me! So I tried to ask him about it but he just switched on the TV. Reluctantly, I said I was going to go to sleep. Then after about 10 minutes, he joined me and we had sex.
But, he still seemed really distracted, so afterwards I just wanted to leave but I just cried myself to sleep. I dunno, I just don`t know what he thinks anymore. I mean, do you think he`s met someone else??

HIS SIDE OF THE STORY
My team lost. Felt Kinda Tired. Got laid though.

Sometimes it is that simple.

I am not saying that we select our partners on a conscious level - far from it. Nor do I think we select on the basis of what might happen years in the future. However, I do believe that there is a "their horns fit the holes in my head" element, which works in a very subtle way. And yes, it takes a long time to unravel the reasoning behind that, if one is so inclined. We ARE often approaching the situation from opposite ends of the spectrum - in effect, everyone's attention is on the drinker, negatively or positively. In Transactional Analysis terms, this is known as "stroking" - and yes, SAV, it would be far more productive and healthy to focus on the genuine positives in one another, to each other. If we reward the behaviour we want more of, we often get surprising results. I know you were talking about posts on here, though - you just set off a train of thought for me. Posters often post about the positives on here, although many times those positives are really "givens" e.g. contributing financially, taking out the trash, remembering birthdays etc, or are examples of methods of manipulation.

Many times I have heard in open AA meetings that the drinker would not have put up with their behaviour if the roles were reversed. Some say it in a "my god, I am so lucky she stood by me", but others convey an attitude of "what's wrong with her?!!" Perhaps it is my own projection, though - I know I lose respect for people who act like a doormat towards me and let me run the show.

I must apologise for missing out a "some" in my OP. I made a huge and unfair generalisation - not all drinkers fit that mould. Sometimes I forget that the representations on this board are self-selecting and probably do not reflect the realities of the majority. Also, my ponderings are not really about being involved with a problem drinker - accepting the unacceptable is not confined to substance abuse.

I know it's tough. And I know how hard it is to see the wood for the trees when you are right in the thick of it. I just want everyone to know that there is a different path out there - one with love, respect, support, fun, serenity and joy. I am in the hallway at the moment - the door behind me is closed and I can hear the laughter coming from another part of the building. I haven't yet worked out which door will lead me to it, but I want to share with you that it is there.

Live

Minnie, I read around too...and noticed the same thing as your originally posted a long time ago.

And, let's say, everyone coming here is trying to resolve their problems, the As are focusing on themselves and their sobriety and their partners are focusing on the As and their sobriety. ?

I see that alot.

fluffyflea

Minnie,

What you bring up is true.

Co-dependents and Alcoholics seem to fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. The way we can stop the tyranny is to get ourselves well.

Earthworm

LovesLife

Self-centeredness is a side effect of alcoholism. I don't think they can help it or even see it.

DesertEyes

Excellent thread, thank you all for your posts.

I am both an Alcoholic and an Alanoid. I belong in both sides but the disease is only one. I have the disease of "Me, Myself, and I". When I am active in my disease I think only of myself. I think of how I can manipulate others to get what I want.

As a "co-dependent" I try to manipulate others into doing things _my_ way. I ignore _their_ needs and figure out what makes them "tick" so I can control them. For some people that is nagging and harassing them until they do what I want just to shut me up.

As an "alcoholic" I try to manipulate others into doing things _my_ way. I ignore _their_ needs and figure out what makes them "tick" so I can control them. For some people that is just ignoring and avoiding them until they wind up doing it cuz they're desperate for my attention.

Either way it's the same disease, just different manifestations of it.

I try to make the world match my expectations of what it should be. The first 6 steps of recovery help open my mind and realize that is what I was doing.

When I am in recovery I try to make my expectations match the world as it is. The second 6 steps of recovery help me change _me_ so that I can do that.

Whenever I find myself focused on other people, places and things I know I am "in" my disease and I need to take action to stop that. Whenever I find myself focused on how _I_ can be a better person I know I am working my program and I need to do more of it.

Oh yeah, the alcohol. That's just a biological thing. I drink it, I get stupid, I do stupid things, I end up dead. The _real_ problem I have is _me_. Alcohol just adds fuel to a fire that is already out of control.

That's why I stay active in recovery every day. As long as I live I will always have the problem with me, cuz it's _me_.

Mike

CE Girl

Right on Desert. The common thread with most of us, is we have always had the "problem".

We tell the A to focus on themselves, and tell the codie the same thing

I agree, the focus on the other threads are I, me and my. The focus here is he/she, they and theirs. I would say the "common thread" though, is for the alcoholic its alcohol, and the codie its the alcoholic.

For the drug addict its the drug, the food abuser the food, the cigerette smoker the cigs, ect, ect, ect,

For the people who love those afflicted, its the PERSON that is the addiction.

So, yes, you can look around and never see other threads, emulate the F+F threads. Its all in the addiction. And it will be with ALL of us as a "problem" as long as we live.

Peace

Sav

Hehe...yeah, that's a problem that happens regardless of addiction. There always seems to be one member of a couple who analyzes every little nuance of the other person... and the other person just "takes it as it comes".

I'm the former, and I have to try to keep the reigns tight on it, or I drive my wife absolutley insane!

She trys to be aware of it and give more "input"... so we don't have those unplesant scenes were she walks in the door and I go;

"BLAH BLAH BLAH BAH BLAH...BLAH BLAH!!!"

And she's standing there, jaw dropping, thinking I just went insane!