cherryberry

Hi, I am new here but have been looking around for a little while. I would like some opinions on giving an alcoholic an ultimatum. I have heard that it is the only thing that works (if you stick to your guns of course), or that it can't work for an alcoholic due to their inability to control themselves. I know there is a lot of debate on the second point, and personally I feel that the alcoholic (at least the one in my life, my husband) tends to hide behind the excuse of lack of self control because it's 1) an easy way to get away with things and 2) requires no effort to change.

I fully understand and accept that I cannot control or change my husband. But I struggle with the lack of joy in being forced to detach from my partner in life. Is it possible to have a marriage with an alcoholic when you know up front you cannot trust or rely on him? Hence the question of the ultimatum. I don't want to look back on all the years of my life as a daily struggle. But still, I love my husband and know what is possible of our relationship when alcohol is not drowning it.

Thoughts?

CE Girl

Hey CherryBerry,,Welcome to SR,,I'm glad your here

I can only speak for me, and I'm a codie not an A, but hell, you give me an ultimatum and I'll do just the opposite but then again, I'm a renagade injun

I tried the ultimatum thing. "You don't sober up and I'm gone". Trouble was, he would for a while, relapse and I'd still be there. Ummm,,ultimatum's don't work that way I guess. It kept happening,,,

For me, I had to realize one thing first:

I didn't cause it
I can't control it
I can't cure it

Only one person can. And my A was having NONE of it.

Making choices for myself was the only option left to me

Happy you posted. The really WISE sages of SR will be along shortly to give you some input

Stick around

Peace

free2be

Welcome cherryberry,
I really do not have any great words of wisdom...
I do know that this is something that you need to decide for yourself. Everyone is different. As I can only speak for myself, I stayed with AH for almost 20 years, hoping and praying things would go back to how they used to be. Things would for a short while and then it went back to the same old thing 10 fold. What I have learned here is that you only can control you. You have to take care of you. It may sound selfish. I still am having difficulty with it. However, it really is true.
Detaching from the disease, not the person is what I struggle with and trying to find the balance has been difficult.
I am sure the others, who I have found great strength and wisdom, will offer more and better guidence.

Take Care.

denny57

Wecome!

Detaching doesn't always lead to staying in the relationship. It's removing myself from another person's problems and seeing how I like my life. I lived on the idea of the potential of our marriage for YEARS.

I don't believe ultimatums work. Boundaries do. I had to decide what I wanted for my life and then go get it.

Keep posting - lots of great support and advice here.

cmc

Welcome to SR.
You have received some great replies.
In Alanon I learned that I cannot make somebody change, especially an alcoholic or addict. I can tell someone what "I" will do if they choose to act a certain way, which would be defined as setting a boundary. "If you do ____, then I will do ____." The boundary is meaningless if I do not plan to follow through with it, so I need to be sure I'm willing and able to do so.
I hope you will take some time to read the stickys at the top of the page. It's nice to meet you and I'm glad you decided to share with us here.

hadenoughnow

In my case I thought out and planned what would need to happen if my AH refused to seek help and work toward sobriety. I spoke with an attorney, close friends etc, stashed money, collected evidence. I believe strongly that you only have one shot to show that you mean business, empty threats put you at a disadvantage. Be prepared to go through with YOUR plans, do not let drama derail them. It will be easier to plan if you remember that a drunk is the mental equivalent of a one legged man in a ass kicking contest while they are using!

I approached it like I would a project at work, sounds cold but I am determined not to lose one more minute of MY life.

prodigal

Welcome. I'm glad you found us! In response to your question as to whether or not you can have a marriage with someone upon whom you cannot rely or trust, I'd have to answer an unequivocal NO. Reliability and trustworthiness are two of the foundations that make a marriage. Without it, you have something ... but in my opinion, it isn't a marriage. JMO, but without those ingredients, your recipe for a marriage will fall flat.

Admitting to lack of self-control is a way out of having to deal with an addiction; however, an addiction, by its very nature, is something in which one has an inability to exercise self-control despite the best intentions.

If your marriage is drowning and collapsing under the flood of alcohol, it's up to your husband to decide for himself if he wants to seek recovery. If you decide to issue an ultimatum, be prepared to follow through on it.

Please keep posting and let us know more about you. I'd also suggest you give Al-anon a try.

steve11694

Accordin to books i have read by experts in addiction, an ultimatum should only be made if you are 100% solid in following through with it if the alcoholic does not do what you want. It also helps if the alcoholic knows damn well you are serious, because they tend to ignore reason and logic, threats and ultimatums.

leenymclaugh

Like the posts say, ultimatums only work if you follow through -- and that's what will end up happening because an alcoholic can only seek recovery when he or she is READY to surrender to the program of recovery. But they have to decide for themselves, they can't do it for any other reason. OH, they can quit drinking (my brother quit several years ago and is living now as a dry drunk -- I find him to still have the "isms", just not the alcohol. I've heard in my meetings that when you take the alcohol out of the alcoholic, you're still left with the "ick" meaning the mannerisms are still there, just not the alcohol.

Good luck, and if you can, check out some Al-Anon meetings -- they've helped me immensely!!!

Hugs,
Eileen

parentrecovers

nice to meet you, cherryberry. agreed - i have given my alcoholic daughter ultimatums and when i don't follow through - i cause her (and myself) more damage than i help.

you going to alanon?

blessings, k

cherryberry

Thanks everyone so far for your feedback. I really feel caught between a rock and a hard place. The reason I posted last night because it was the fourth time in the past few weeks that my AH pulled his disappearing act - he simply doesn't come home after work and will not answer or return my phone calls. I then usually get a call around 2:30 in the morning that he is too trashed to get home. At least this is a little better that it used to be, where he would never call and just not appear until sometime the next day, or drive himself 30-45 minutes home. After some counseling (back when I had insurance) a few years back, I decided not to chase him any more, and that if he is not going to show up, I will just go about my night without him. However this does affect our home life as we have two sons who want to know where daddy is and when he will be home. I usually call him on my way home from work, and if I can't get ahold of him, I pretty much know that it's one of "those nights," so I will take the kids for pizza or do something to try to distract from the fact that dad is missing. But what a terrible role model for family behavior - they will grow up and be husbands and fathers one day, will it be enough for me to tell them how a man should act?

There are other factors to my wanting to give an ultimatum, of course, the typical financial ruin that we are in after years of wasting money at the bar. His nastiness and lack of respect towards me, and lack of responsibility in most areas. My frustration about the give and take being me all giving and him all taking (although since I have stopped giving, he now blames me for his drinking, rationalizing that if I kept him happy he wouldn't need to go out).

The flip side of this is, as bad as it sounds, when he is in between binges, or stops and acknowledges his faults, he makes a genuine effort to make things better. He is a loving, caring individual who is great with kids, compassionate towards others, very smart, capable and talented. He is my best friend. It is with utmost sadness that I watch this side of him go into hiding more and more as alcoholism takes over his brain. He has admitted he cannot fight it alone, yet he continues to try to until he gives in and things get bad all over again. But despite this, he won't go to others for help. We own a small business (he is the only one there) and don't have health insurance so rehab seems impossible. We went to an AA meeting once but it so happened to be "birthday night" and the commotion of strangers really turned him off. He doesn't feel like he will have any peers there. I believe he is also clinically depressed and possible suffers from PTSD (from several horrible childhood experiences). Obviously I cannot diagnose him, but I grew up with a clinically depressed, functioning alcoholic father who now has heart disease and diabetes.

I get lost trying to decide whether to hang in there and support (but not enable) him, because he is sick and can't be blamed for his illnesses. I did agree to be with him through sickness and health. But what I can't get right with is his lack of seeking help. You would not forgive someone with any other disease for not seeking treatment when they have a family. The selfishness is overwhelming. So where do I draw the line?

SaTiT

It never worked for me..becuase i give in..

if anything i should have been giving myself the ultimatum..
if she didn't stopped...i should had made my leave or get out.
Ultimately ..that's what i ended up doing after years of
arguing about how manytimes she broke my heart.

Bottom line is..i can only change myself and I can't change
anyone else...iT sucks..I know..especailly if you love someone
very much..but after 3 years of the chaos..i had gray hairs
all over my head..My divorce gave me a narley looking gray
streak just on the left side..which i thought looked sexy
after i accepted it...but man o man..that gray going all over
was a sign and a half. i thought I was strong..but alcoholism kicked
my butt...I felt like a 60 old man after..i was only 37 when it all started.
I still have a head full of hair...that's a miracle becuase i was pulling
my hair out every other day...

Seriousely..my health suffered amongs other wrackages

I'm sorry

loveRoy

Welcome to the board. You have found a safe place filled with wise people. I just want to add that in no way, shape, or form are you responsible for his drinking. If he wants to drink, he will use any excuse. Keep reading and keep posting. Again, welcome.

prodigal

Mind you, this is only my opinion, but I think you are enabling him by virtue of the fact that you are still there and putting up with more and more of his b.s. You're witnessing first-hand the progression of the disease.

You mentioned he doesn't want to go to others for help. So there is your answer. It's one excuse he can use to continue drinking. Again, if you have not given Al-anon a try, please do. I know you want what is best for your children, and having them grow up with a dad who pulls a vanishing act periodically, leaving them asking "Where's daddy?" isn't a good situation for them.

You AH is trashing you financially, using you as his whipping post when he blames you for his drinking (what a crock!), and the times he's on good behavior are going to become less and less as this disease progresses. It is entirely up to you as to whether you decide to leave or stay. If it was me, and I was watching my finances go down the tubes and being blamed for the boozing, I'd be making plans to remove myself from the situation.

cherryberry

I haven't been able to go to Al-Anon at this point because I don't have anyone to watch the kids (meetings are at 6:30 and 8:00 pm). I don't think it would be a good idea to bring them because I wouldn't be able to focus on myself if I am trying to watch after them. That's one reason I joined SR, so I could have some personal interaction. Right now I don't really have any friends besides co-workers, and my parents allow my AH to crash at their place when he's drunk even after many emotional conversations with my mom about what he is putting us through. I know I would not be able to stay with them if we left. They would not take my sister in when she was pregnant and left her addicted, abusive boyfriend (she came to live with me for awhile but went back to and married him).

I think I put up with it because I still have hope that one day the "good him" will stay. He had a drug addiction in his past that he was able to overcome and hasn't gone back to in almost 10 years, but alcohol seems to have such a tighter grip. He always goes away to do his drinking (except for having a few beers when grilling out) so the kids are not directly exposed to him being drunk. They usually make the assumption he is working late and are proud of their hard working dad. I don't correct this assumption because it seems much easier on them. So I don't really know what their level of suffering over this is (other than bad examples when he speaks disrespectfully). I know that my suffering can affect them, but I really think I do well at detaching from bad happenings so that I can engage myself with them. They don't see me distraught, in fact, now when he disappears, I take the opportunity to give myself some "me" time or make it a movie night with my older son - so it becomes a positive. But I am still angry with him later. I try to make it a point not to have a conversation until the anger goes away.

When I listen to the reasoning in my own arguments (to stay in or get out), they both seem to make sense in the moment they are happening. Stay in - he will eventually come around and the core of what we are built on will grow strong again. We will be a whole family, we will grow old together. Get out - this will never go away and will continue to eat at everyone forever. I feel confident that I can find day to day happiness either way. I thoroughly love life. But I also feel like jekyll and hyde. How can I have two opposite opinions that have the same weight? I think I am also afraid that I will make the wrong decision for my boys. They idolize their dad (not really understanding his pitfalls) and I don't think they would ever understand me taking us away from him, all their friends at school, the life we worked SO hard to give them. I don't want them to grow up resenting me. I wish I could have seen the future before kids came along. I never regret them for a minute, they are my angels and my joy.

What a tangled web.

rock-hardplace

I'm exactly where you're at right now (see my ID - ha!). After, oh, 7 years of binge drinking (always lasting one night, at home, in the bathroom, always ending up with him passed out in his chair/on the couch/in bed), I've had it. Don't ask me why it took so long for me to get to this point. Probably because he's not abusive in any way and he's a good, smart guy when he's not drinking. He wasn't a daily drunk so I never thought he had a problem. So I lived for the highs and struggled my way through the binges.

Not anymore. It's getting progressively worse even though he's been going to 1 or 2 AA meetings a week for the past few months and seeing a therapist (well, he stopped seeing her 5 weeks ago, so that was a cue to me that he was still thinking he could quit on his own).

A couple weeks ago he disappeared for the night for the first time. I called him in the morning and woke him up, passed out in the truck after drinking 2 - 26ers (holy crap, batman!). I felt bad for him by then, because he had been to 7 meetings that week trying to fight the cravings. But then afterwards? He went to two meetings in 12 days. I started to think, wait a minute. You don't go from having a really bad week to being suddenly cured, but I left him alone - it's his problem and I've been letting him deal with it (I gave up being a codie a couple months ago). He lasted 12 days before binging last Thursday night. Skipped a day, then was passed out by 1pm Saturday - in front of both of us (we have a 3 year old). I snapped. The dam finally busted open. I took my daughter and went to my parents. I wasn't mad, not upset, not anything. I was done with the rollercoaster. I didn't even cry. I slept SO good that night, too.

I went back the following evening (this past Sunday) and gave him the ultimatum - rehab or get out. Of course, that went over well. He said he was doing everything he could, going to meetings even though he didn't like going to meetings. I said it obviously wasn't enough and that I was tired of the insanity. He said if it happened one more time, he'd check himself in somewhere. I asked 'why wait?' He said it was a big deal to miss work, etc. I mentioned out-patient but I wasn't getting anywhere and I wasn't trying to convince him anyway - just letting him know his options. I did find it crazy-sounding, this one more time thing. Why wait the week until he slips again? Anyhow, he refused to move out, so I said we would have to. I meant it. I still mean it.

I've been sleeping on the couch, not making his lunches, not calling him at work, etc. and completely keeping my distance from him until I figure out where we're going to go, but it doesn't frighten me anymore. I've checked into child and spousal support and rentals in the area. I've threatened before but never followed through because he would start going to therapy or going to meetings or just plain beg me to stay. But his current efforts are not enough, in my eyes. I seriously look at him now like a crazyperson, because that is what he is. And because of that, I'm not letting him turn my words around or get to me (he often says he wishes he was a perfect as me. Now I just agree with him!). He even tried to compare his disease to cancer and asked if I would leave him if he had cancer. I'm sticking to my guns and man, it feels good. He can't guilt me anymore. In a way, I've already left. Now I just have to physically, but that's coming soon, I think.

He sees his therapist tonight to find out what his options for rehab are. I think he's hoping for something a couple days a week. I'm hoping for outpatient or inpatient, but something substantial. If he comes home tonight with excuses, or that he's just going to keep trying AA, I'm committed to moving out while he 'experiments' with his recovery. I don't need to live like this and neither does my daughter. My daughter's preschool ended today so I have nothing holding us here anymore (which is why I came back on Sunday - that, and I had the truck that he needed for work). Sure, I don't WANT to leave my home, but if HE won't, then I have to. And I'll deal with it. I'll manage. I actually feel good about it. It's a freeing feeling, letting all the insanity go. Letting go of the potential and seeing what IS.

Don't mean to hijack your thread, just wanted you to know that there a lot of us out there who have been unsure of what direction to take. I waffled for years - left him for a few days a couple times but always went back. Only you know what you're prepared to do. Trust your gut - there's something to be said for women's intuition. I wish I had adhered to it years ago. If you're not sure, you don't have to make any decisions today. It took me a long time to get to this point.

I wish you all the best and sympathize with your struggles. I've been there, as have many of us. Some choose to stick it out, some choose to get out. It sucks having to make such a tough decision but what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

Good luck with whatever you choose!