Tredding

Hi everyone,
I posted here about a year ago when i was trying to get up the courage to go to a f2f al-anon meeting. I have since been going to meetings twice a week for a year and two months and I am forever grateful for it.

At that time last year it was when I finally came to realize that my h was an alcoholic, i tried for years to "decide" if he was or not. He is not the drop down drunk kind, and it is even hard to tell when is is well under the influence, he is sneeky and toes that line to look "normal". He is not physically abusive, he does spew some verbal vomit around frequently and is very unhappy, depressed, and a negative ball of stress, even though he has countless blessings before him. he is a good provider and basically a good dad who likes to spend time with our boys(10 and 5). I disagree with alot of his parenting skills as the disease can make him say some unhealthy things from his alcoholic warped thinking to our kids.

Although i don't know if he really sees this or not, our marriage relationship is basically exstinct. I would say we are emotionally divorced. i do not feel anything for him in the way of romantic love, i care about him but do not feel love.. And although al-anon has helped so much in the way of working on myself so i no longer contribute to the pointless arguments and conflict in our home, my relationship with him has not improved as his drinking has just increased. I can't even BEGIN to imagine our relationship improving or being able to work on it untill he stops drinking, and I know I will not stay in this relationship if thats not an option.

He has never admitted he has a problem much less ever referred to himself as an alcoholic. He has never really tried to stop or sought help. Years ago we used to have huge fights over his drinking and I would express my anger and such about it, and occasionally he would appease me by saying he would only drink on the weekends, which of course never lasted. I was always pissed off about it back then because i felt it was a direct choice he made, the beer over me. And that he did it just to **** me off. Since we've had kids (10 years now) i don't really "do" these fights anymore or even bring it up that it still bothers me, because 1- i don't want to fight around the kids 2- It never changed anything in the past. 3- i am too exhausted to go that route anymore. So I really don't know what HE thinks...maybe that i have just accepted it or what but....

I don;t think he sees that our lack of a relationship(hes good at denial about all sorts of stuff, but he must know things aren't good), stems from the drinking(the disease). i have taken great steps on improving myself and maturing and trying to understand the disease and find compassion for him, and i understand that i have contributed to the demise of our relationship by my own past behaviors. But... i feel as though i am coming up out of the muck, so to speak, but i am leaving him behind in the muck and he is drowning. But I can only save me.

So all this 'growing' I have been doing in "secret". As i have NOT told him i attend al-anon, how unhappy i am (in direct words anyway) or how serious I feel this is and that I am basically taking steps to sever our marriage in the future, by becoming finacially independant for one and other such steps as getting stronger from al-anon. He is out of state for 4 days and all i feel is relief. (well ... and some guilt about feeling 'happier "and less stress without him)

I am trying to work at this marriage and give it my best shot for my kids and for us. But i have reached the point that without him being 'clued in', how do I progress from here? I feel I need to confront him about his drinking, my feelings, our future..etc. i don't feel i am being fair...as i grow further away from him...without him knowing where i am at...and just blindsiding him one day and walking out.

But heres the thing... i know the al-anon philosophy is not to harass them about their drinking..it doesn't work....or threats.... or altimatums. i don't know how to broach the subject without it sounding this way. I know threatening to leave him is NOT going to "cure" him, but doesn't he have the right to know, in case he feels like fighting for this marriage? I don't know how to begin this conversation as i KNOW it will become a fight.

The only thing i keep coming up with is writing a letter, but is that a cop-out? and the problem with letters is interpretation..you can't hear tone in a letter and he can "hear" the words how ever he choses and i am sure I'd probably just end up sounding like a bitch in his head, when my intention is compassion and fairness. I also know my H is a pretty sensitive guy undeneath it all(he IS a good guy with a good soul with a bad disease), and i am not out to crush him and cause him pain as i know this conversation i feel i need to have will do. How can it not?? Hi honey, i think you are an alcoholic, i don't really feel love for you anymore, i'm planning to leave as soon as i can afford it, and i am taking the boys with me. ugh. I do not want to destroy my husband ( I know I know, i am taking responsibility for his feelings, trying to control what i have no control over)

Any suggestions(gentle and compassionate ones) out there, on how i can compassionately go about having this conversation with him...I literally feel sick when i actually think of doing it. Keep in mind that anything i say will undoubtedly make him defensive, angry, irrational and he is a good debater. In the past when he has asked me to explain WHY his drinking is a problem (he doesn't beat me or anything he'll say) i can't even explain why it is....

I feel its a step i have to take, i can no longer live in "secret" but i know its will either be the beginning of something possibly possitive, or the beginning of the end and i will have to be prepared to ask him to move out(which would probably require a police escort-I can't imagine him leaving volunterily but i am NOT removing my boys from thier home). Am i strong enough for this?

But I do know the tremendous relief i feel not to have to see him tonight and feel that tention (cuz he's away) is a clear indication, that i have to express myself and let the chips fall where they may.

So, please, if anyone has been down this road and can share their experience or has some al-anon tools to share in this instance please do!

Thanks for listening!

TD

Sunflower

I really can't give you any personnal advice from my own experience because I am in another place. I can give you my opinion-I think you are right about a letter--NOT a good idea after this many years of marriage. I would say this needs to be done face to face--level with him be honest about how you feel and what you have been doing..It is not a debate and shouldn't turn into an argument unless you are too brutally honest.If he has ''no idea'' this will be a shock to him and you say you do not want to destroy him.What will you do if he says''lets work on this''??? What if he wants to save the marriage? Are you willing?
Sounds like he is a high functioning alcoholic--wow--and he is nice to you-doesn't hit you-supports you--etc....what about him don't you like? Just curious.

prodigal

Toby Rice Drews addresses this issue in her book, "Getting Them Sober." She discusses telling them calmly how you feel about their drinking, their behaviors associated with it, and do it when he hasn't been drinking. Rehearse what you want to say. Make notes. Tell him one time and one time only. Do not argue. Just ask him to let you speak your peace, then be done.

If he wants to start ranting and raving, get away from him. He'll "get it" on some level the first time you tell him how you feel.

I'd suggest you get a copy of "Getting Them Sober." It has good, straightforward advice on situations we must deal with when living with an active alcoholic.

You mentioned you no longer love your husband. Love isn't a feeling. Love is a choice. Feelings are fleeting. What we think is "love" is that tingly all-over feeling that is largely motivated by hormones. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love IS looooonnnngggg-suffering. Love holds no grudges. Love is slow to anger and quick to forgive.

It sounds as if you do love your husband and are being compassionate. However, there comes a time when they ain't gonna get sober, don't want to get sober, don't think they need to get sober, blah, blah, blah. That's when you have to decide if the quality of life for you and your children will be better with him or without him. Only you can make that decision.

Tredding

Hi SF,
Thanks for responding.

If my h said "lets work on this" and wants to save the marriage, I would literally jump up and down. And yes i am more than willing.....I haven't attended al-anon for over a year, read countless books, al-anon and marriage books, and analyzed my own shortcomings NOT to work out my marriage....

I have no doubt that my H would WANT to save our marriage, i do not know if he has the capacity to do what it takes, beginning with admitting he has a problem and seeking help for recovery. I had mentioned marriage counceling years ago and he basically said I was the one with the problem so i should see a shrink but he was fine. So I don't foresee a whole lot of "hey baby i want to work it out lets go to counceling" after I confront him. And i don't even know, if he miraculously agreed to recovery treatment and counceling, if i would "fall" back in love with him but i definately do not want to give up without giving it evey chance. I think to many people give up on their marriage because they are just bored and selfish, i don't want to feel that way, i want to say i tried...really tried.

Yes, my H is a high functioning alcoholic which makes it harder in some sense...Its harder to point the finger and single out the disease. As for "nice to me"...yes ther are many instances when he is genuinely nice to me, but as the years progress, they get fewer and fewer. No he doesn't hit me but can be verbally abusive and passive agressively sneakily psychologically hurtful. All symptoms of his disease.

As for what i don't like about him....I hate to sit here and take his inventory and start listing all his faults......Most of it (which I have come to realize in the last year) is your basic character defects of an alcoholic. Some of it is left over damage from his childhood backround, nothing too abusive or anything but just your basic scars we all end up with from childhood, no matter how well our parents tried, no ones parent are perfect(after all our parents are victims of THEIR childhood an on it goes).

So without spewing out all details of different incidents, its your basic non-growth, imaturity, negativity, irritable, irrational, argumentative, non-ambitious, some unhealthy parenting skills (IMO), unable to do anything that presents the slightest bit of uncomfotableness, stuck in a rut, its always someone elses fault, fear of change, making fun of others, not really liking anyone, feeling sorry for himself........he prides himself on NOT changing, he is the same as he was 20 years ago when I met him (with a more progressed disease), where as I am very different than i was 20 years ago and beleive in personal growth and the perpetual search for something "new".

I hope that makes sense. My H's drinking is his first love and you can't work on the other stuff with that in the way. His thinking is very warped.

I do beleive that somewhere underneath he knows all this and I think he does a lot of self-loathing and dislikes himself and that why he finds fault with everyone else. i think he feels stuck and can't tolerate the pain of really looking at himself and taking responsibility for his life and therefor drinks even more. i don't think he knows its a disease and that he isn't a bad person or a loser, just unfortunaely a victim of a bad insidious sneaky disease, so therfor he can't face it because facing it would be too painful, so he stuffs it and his behavior progressively worsens...he's an angry man and spends his life surpressing it..IMHO. He appears on the outside as an easy going chuckling, comedien.

I hope that cures your curiousity...LOL

My "sober husband" has (or had) a lot of good qualities, the 'diseased husband' is a terrible ball of stress, negativity and tention to live with, he is much nicer to the outside world than he is at home.

thanks for listening SF.
TD

Seeking Wisdom

There is so much about what you are going through that reminds me of a period in my life with my Ahusband. He at one time was a very functional alcoholic when our kids were young ... but he gradually got angier, drank more and became much less functional. With alcoholics like these, there can be a long period of trying to determine whether they just drink too much ... or if they have a serious problem. I wasted many years on this phase as he worked very hard trying to conceal how much he really drank. For a long time he drank openly, but it turned out he was hiding beer and sneaking it when he went out on errands. During this time period he would have glazed eyes and slurred speech after "just a few drinks". It also really bothered me he wouldn't try to stay sober around his kids and he wouldn't even go one night without drinking ... and I was always worrying if he could be trusted to drive his kids anywhere or even watch them for extended periods. When I eventually discovered he was lying and hiding beer in the garage on top of what he was drinking in the open, I finally knew for sure he was an alcoholic... I confronted him and told him he could no longer drink and live in our home ... it was not a healthy enviroment for our kids. Drinking however basically changes who they are and how they behave ... I used to describe him as being obnoxious when he drank. He would act so different, fuzzy headed, rambling and at times slurring his words. He rarely ever got to the point of being blantantly drunk ... but he became someone else, someone who I didn't respect...and someone that refused to put the well being of his family above his drinking.

My husband was not very sensitive so I always had to be straight forward with him to make a point. When you are ready, you may want to gradually let him know that you are unhappy with his drinking and gradually let him know how you do not intend to keep living this way as it is not a healthy relationship or enviroment for you or your kids. Marriage counseling can cause additional problems if they are not well trained in addiction ... we went to 2 different ones that made things worse not better as they did not know how to see through the bs of the alcoholic. Later when you feel the time is right and you are ready to follow through ... let him know you expect him to make changes for the benefit of family and if he can't start living a healthier sober life ... you will have to separate. When you have young kids it is especially tough to make these changes, as you want to be able to give them a good home with both a mom and a dad to support and raise them. There is a no win situation with young kids unless the alcoholic parent can get sober...either you try to coexist and are miserable and expose your kids to the insanity of addiction .. or you separate and try to struggle as a single parent household while still having to a maintain relationship because he is the father of your children .. and potentially have to share custody with someone you can't necessarily trust to be sober when supervising your kids. You can start in baby steps to let him know you are seriously unhappy and changes need to be made.

Tredding

Prodigal, thanks so much for your post. i will DEFINATELY get the book. I think I have seen it but using the al-anon philosophy of you can't "get themsober" I avoided getting the book because I thought it was all about doing the right thing to "cure" them. But its sounds as though thereis stuff in ther i can use.

As for the love stuff, i understand the philisophy there but i partly disagree, i would love to "choose" tol ove him again but when there is so much that "repells" you you can't get past it when you have gotten to a place where you just don't love him, but dilike him most of the time....could you force yourself to "choose" to love some co-worker at your job that repeated irritated you and disagreed with all your views? No, theer has to be other things too, I beleive there are layers of love, from the attraction flutters to intelligent choice of love, to energy and emotions and hormones, to mature selfless love. i beleiv e they all have to exist at SOME level to have real progressive growing changing love that endures years of being together.
Love is a feeling AND a choice, emotionally spiritually intellectually and pschologically and phisiologically.

i truley appreciate every word of your post Thanks!

Sunflower

I understand I think where you are coming from...I know in my own marriage once it was over it was over--the alcohol killed my love for him completely and even if he wanted to work it out I would never had been willing.It reminds me of that song''trying to get the feeling again"" it just disappears-and if it has for you -you need to move forward--you deserve to move forward,,,,,

Tredding

SW,
OMG thank you for your post!! Okay your first paragraph descibes my sitch exactly word for word!!! My H hides it now and drinks his "3 beers" in plain sight as to look "okay". But i know he drinks in the car on the way home from work and hides 12 packs in the dirt basement where he 'disappears'to. I have increasing felt like "a bad mother" because I work 3 nights a week when i leave my kids alone with my H and i do not know how much under the influence he is and does frequently have to drive them somewhere and it is hard to tell how much he is under the influence he is, yet i am letting him drive my children. He really does toe that line not to look like an alcoholic, so I feel he wouldn't drive the kids if he was over the legal limit, but i could be stuck in denial here, i really have no way of knowing how much he has drunk and thinking about me leaving my kids with him and typing this outloud so to speak really makes me feel like a loser and a crummy mom and what the hell am i doing! I am working very hard at aquiring a job at the moment that will enable me to always be home when the kids are home.

you wrote "He rarely ever got to the point of being blantantly drunk ... but he became someone else, someone who I didn't respect...and someone that refused to put the well being of his family above his drinking."

EXACTLY!!! wow.

I think your advice is straight forward and articulated very well. Thanks!

I feel so strong when i read all these posts validating what i feel...yet when i face him...he makes me feel like i am insane.

SaTiT

I wouldn't recommending confronting him by youself.
It'll just be another argument and perhapse worst
and feeds right into the disease again.
it's not as if he dosn't know. He's not in a total blackout all the time.

Emotionally detach.
Refocus on yourself.
Heal and do what you can do for your children.

Nuudawn

You've already gotten such great advice here. I'm a recovering alcoholic who left a still drinking boyfriend. For me...I wanted to "get real...and grow up". I had hoped that he would too. He did not. I dont' want to be with anyone who is not "fully present" in the relationship. I want a "real relationship"..with two people working and growing together. An alcoholic is simply "not there" and cannot grow as long as they are drinking.

My father is a compulsive gambler (yep the addicted apple don't fall far from tree). My parents separated after 50 years of marriage. It was not a matter of my mother not loving my father anymore. She loved the man that once was...before his addiction ruled his every decision and very being. As her and I discuss my alcoholism rather frequently..she said to me...that's what it felt like for me with your father...I hit my bottom. I couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't feel that way anymore...the constant state of anxiety and walking on egg shells.

Perhaps like my Mom...you have bottomed.

Best to you in your journey.

Seeking Wisdom

Tredding

You sound like a fantastic mom .. you have been put in an extremely difficult situation you never asked for and it sounds like you are making very wise thoughtful decisions. You are taking active steps to move on with your life if it becomes necessary and take care of your kids. I think trying to raise kids with an alcoholic parent has got to be one of the most difficult things there is to do. Like so many of us with kids, we end up staying longer than we should because we need to support our children financially. I always said I could live in a tent ... but I never felt I could put my kids in that situation. I am the child of an alcoholic as well, I learned first hand what it was like to move around constantly and live in constant turmoil. I worked very hard to keep my kids in their home and asked my husband to live elsewhere, so my kids never had to feel the full impact and financial devastation that can go along with having an alcoholic parent ... but it was really a difficult thing to do.

My Ahusband was a functional alcoholic for several decades that could stay sober during the work day and exerted more control over his behavior. At first he adamantly refused to admit he had any drinking problem, then he declined further.. and he admitted finally he had a problem and said would not drink unless I said it was okay to have one glass of wine with supper - then for the next several years he drank only mouthwash trying to cover up his problem and further confuse and deceive me. After the mouthwash discovery .. he finally admitted he was an alcoholic and he was finally able to stop drinking for 2 years ..but when he relapsed, he really fell apart in a big way, he was meaner and angrier than ever before .. and that is when I found this forum. He kept declining and couldn't stay sober at any point during the day, not even for Christmas or his sons' birthdays. Alcohol in time destroyed his mind and body and then took his life.. and his kids no longer have a father. Sadly... my husband started out very much like yours is now.

newenglandgirl

Hey Tredding...I'm so glad you are here...yet so sorry that you are going through all of this.

You've gotten some great advice and feedback.

You sound like a very sharp and very sensitive woman. You have really done your homework. I know you want to do the right thing. It sounds like you are taking the right steps towards getting the kind of life you and your kids deserve. You already know that it is not doing your kids any good to be around an active alcoholic. It is a heartbreaking disease that slowly and progressively robs the soul, personality, and health of those have it.

It is the nature of the disease that when confronted, alcoholics will deny and be defensive. That is to be expected. When I started to really come to terms with the fact that my husband's drinking was a huge problem, I would get into long mind-bending debates with him...I didn't understand back then that he was not the man I once knew...he had changed...that I was trying to have conversations with him as if he were normal, when he was incapable of processing information like a normal, clear-thinking person. I just want to warn you that after you confront him, and open the floor so to speak, that he will then most likely argue with you and try to convince you otherwise. Do not let what he says sway you. Stick to your guns. The issue is simple and don't forget it when all his b.s. starts to fly: his drinking is unacceptable. His behavior is unacceptable. Period. Nothing else to discuss.

Please keep reading and posting here! There's so much wisdom and support. I don't think I would have survived without SR. It's just so important (at least it was for me) to hear stories that parallel my own...and to know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. The trip is not easy. But the alternative is not an option.

newenglandgirl

You need to do the things that feel right to you. Wanting to confront him and give him the chance to clean up his act is totally acceptable.

Will he take that chance? I don't know. Will he say that he's going to change and then really do it? I don't know. Will he say that he's going to change and then proceed to sneak around and be toxic for years to come? I don't know. Read past posts here at SR...there are lots of people who have had to deal with these kind of scenarios.

Does he have the right to know? As hard as it may seem, try to concentrate on what YOU and the KIDS have a right to have. He has played around with your lives because of his dedication to the drink. What rights do you and the kids have? How dare he mess with the lives you were all supposed to lead.

You are not being unfair. HE is being unfair. What he does to you and the children is unfair. He doesn't even see how distant and unhappy you are. How his behavior has affected the kids. Or, rather, he does see it all, but he just doesn't care enough to do anything to remedy the situation. He is an addict; all he cares about is his drug.

Pick-a-name

Great books! (IMHO!) See http://www.GettingThemSober.com to read a few "preview" chapters.

Over_It

Hi Tredding,
I was in a situation very similar to yours. I reached my bottom, basically, and finally announced to him, "I am going to see a therapist/counselor. You're welcome to come too if you want." I took matters into my own hands and chose to do something for me. I was surprised that he went - I still suspect that it was because he didn't want me to be free to just "badmouth him" the entire time - as if I would have to make something up!

I still don't know how it's going to turn out for him - he gets out of rehab on Monday - but I know that I'm unwilling to return to that living hell. It was making me old, and I'm too young to be old!!!

Seeing the counselor (LMFT) together got the ball rolling for our situation. He was recommended to me by another therapist I knew of after I explained our situation, and the person we wound up with is absolutely the best possible match I can imagine for our situation.

Promise

From what I know, Getting Them Sober is not in conflict with Al-Anon. It encourages membership in alanon in almost every page. The title is deceiving, it is not about Getting Them Sober at all. The title was written to catch a codependent's eye.

Tredding

Thank you every one for your thoughtful responses. I do not have time right now to respond but hopefully will find time later......doin' the mom thing today..lol....two soccer games and a baseball practice, and gotta squeeze in the grocery shopping somewhere...... Thanks so much for the support you guys!!!!

Oh ya, AND i have to stop at the book store!!!!

Tredding

P- A- N,
thanks for that link...I had already found it after the book was suggested...LOL

parentrecovers

welcome, tredding - another grateful member of alanon here, nice to meet you! k

Tredding

Sorry i haven't gotten back to respond, I told you I'd respond later on saturday but unfortunately Saturday night my cousin died unexpectedly, he was only 46. My family is going through a rough time, and I am so sad about my cousin.............he was my mom's sister's son...............

There is so much disfunction on that side of the family (my mom is one of five, there are 10 of us cousins- or was)...you know ....alcoholism, codependants, the whole dynamic of the family disease............so all the ugliness creeps out and sucks you in...or me in anyway.....

There is just a lot of wierd stuff going on surrounding this tragity..........beginning with the behavior of his alcoholic wife which has caused my aunt and cousin(his sister) a lot of pain.........His sudden death and the behavior of all my extended family is so hard to grasp and understand........and my own dissapointment in myself for falling into the same ugly behaviors(namely gossiping)........along with the reality slap it gives you (omg what if it was my brother, husband, son... as I watch his mother, sister and wife grieve) as well as my mom and other aunts pain of watching their sister lose her son...........

And my own disappointment in my husbands behavior during these things.......

and then the guilt of remotely feeling sorry for myself as there are others suffering so much more......

It has all left me in a very unserene state of confusion and sadness......

Ultimately my heart breaks for his 11 year old daughter...

So anyway,,,maybe i can get back on track with the thread i started here when i am thinking more clearly.....

thanks