Forgiveness?

Old 04-09-2007, 08:53 PM
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Question Forgiveness?

I haven't been here in a while, but I had some revalations and advice lately and I felt like this was the place I needed to be.

My idea of forgiveness is:
something happens
the person who screwed up apologizes after realizing they have done something wrong
the person who was wronged forgives them

But in my situation, my parents have no idea that they did or are doing anything wrong. They are both addicts, both justifying everything they do, and both in denial I guess. I have been in group therapy for a while (it was as a class requirement for my group counseling class and now it's over) and we talked about forgiveness and how I have not forgiven them yet. I don't know how I can forgive them though when there has been no apology or admittance of any wrongdoing. And why should I? To me, that seems almost like admitting defeat.

So I would really like someone to tell me why I am supposed to forgive them and how to even start. Anyone?
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Old 04-10-2007, 06:46 AM
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Mike had a wonderful thread on the difference between forgiveness and absolution. I'll see if I can find it as it sounds like you're getting the two confused.

edit: found it here (remove spaces to 'unbreak' the link)

http://w ww.soberrecovery.com/forums/adult-children-addicted-alcoholic-parents/113 599-forgiving-my-parents.html

It's very well written and I think will help you a lot.
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:40 AM
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I appreciate it Ginger, thanks. Unfortunately, even though I am getting rid of the spaces, every time I put that into my browser it just tkaes me back to the forums homepage. I'll keep trying to find it!
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:45 AM
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Never mind! I was missing a space! Duh!
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:49 AM
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My ideas of forgivness changed.

Throughout my recovery. I learned that I couldn't change anyone,
but I can change myself.

The person that I was angery at the most at the time was my ex-wife.
She was 1600 miles away . Yet I carried all of the hurt and pain inside
of me. Then an elder knock me on the head,oneday.
" you can sit here all day and all night feeling bad and feeling sorry for
yourself...she's probably going out with some other guy and going to bed
with him too"
It took me a little while for that to sink in.
It was my feelings, my hurt, my pain. And i'm the only person that's
feeling it. So..how I'm I going to change that ???
Oh yeah...I can only change myself.......
So I forgive her for all that wrongs that she had done me
I forgive her..for myself so I don't have to carry that pain inside of me
anymore. And ya know....I felt good to release all of that.

So I continued...I made a list of all the people in my life that had
harmed me in anyways. It brought up memories of pain, but it was
okay...it brought it up and out of me to be release. I let go of
it. I burnt that piece of paper..it was gone, gone out of my life.
I trun it over to god.

I wasn't too spiritual. But i was told to clean house. i didn't really
understood it. I actually went home and started cleaning my
house. I gather up all the trash that I didn't want and put it into
the trash can and left it on the curb for the trashman to take it away.
I didn't worry or wonder too much where or what the trashman
did with the trash. It was completely out of my life and i forgot
about it, those trash.

Will...it was like a ahha moment for me. I simply had to do the
same thing with my thoughts and emotions. Stinking thoughts
and stinking feelings. I went through my house (me) and rid
myself of those trash. I truned it over (for-give) gave it to
God (trashman). Beats the hell out of me what god did with it.
Will...I didn't know god too will...mmm. i didn't know the trashman
either.lol
Oh will...nice to be living in a clean house.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:33 AM
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Then a week later. mmm, i notices my house started
collecting dust again. Daily living just generate trash.
I'll take the trash can to the curb on tuesday or friday.

Will..ya know, maybe , just maybe the samething happens
to me on the inside. Cuz life ain't all rosie all the time and
sometime people step on my toes intentional or not.
So I clean house everyweek.

But as I got better and better at it. I met other people
that gave me more tools. So I apply those corny suggestions.

So..i take a shower at the end of the day to rid myself
of the daily grim and dirt off of my body so i don't carry that
into tomorrow. So I basically do this soul cleaning stuff
as I'm taking my shower. I go through my heart and mind
of all the daily crud of living and I wash it away. It gose
down the drain and into the sewer system somewhere
and i don't worry ot think about it anymore.

I do this oneday at a time. and I'm a pretty happy & light hearted
person.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:23 PM
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Here's the link without the spaces

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...y-parents.html

Mike
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:31 PM
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Thanks for this topic and for the linked post as well. I struggle with this so much.

"My idea of forgiveness is:
something happens
the person who screwed up apologizes after realizing they have done something wrong
the person who was wronged forgives them."

Forgiveness without the second part is where I am hung up. It's been implied that I am "unforgiving" because I cut three people out of my life who wronged me. I did this because they have no remorse, have never apologized, all three have turned around after wronging me and tried to make it appear as if I, in fact, wronged them. They also would do the very same things tomorrow if I let them. Their actions have caused me a good bit of embarassment. Part of me feels humiliated, and part of me knows my pride is hurt. I realized also, last night, that underneath all of this I am furious at myself for getting involved with these folks, for not listening to my gut instinct. I was in self-will run riot, and I am paying for it with lost pride. I still have anger at them, but that is a blanket emotion made up of all the minor ones I named above. All three are active addicts, and the codependent in me is right in the spotlight now. That is a gift from a higher power, that I am being FORCED by this pain to take seriously my codependency in a way I never have before. Really, this experience has been a gift.

In the case of parental stuff, all I can think of is if it is something that a person feels is necessary to their recovery, and they don't feel capable of it today, they can pray for it. If I have faith in a higher power, then I believe I will be given each day what is necessary to make it through that day sober. If hp wants me to acknowledge my legitimate emotions of anger, rage, violation, betrayal, before I move into forgiveness then maybe I need to direct my energies toward that. I can also pray for direction in just how to go about moving toward forgiveness. Right now I do not feel it is necessary to 'forgive' my parents for me to stay sober today. It is a one day at a time thing. I don't even know if I am at the stage yet of even being able to articulate what it is I feel about what it is they did. I do not feel it is necessary for me to forgive the people that sexually abused me as a child. I am not angry at them most of the time, but if anger comes up then I respect it and do not suppress it, I try to acknowledge and honor it as legitimate anger. If we are angry at people, then that is a feeling. It's unpleasant and destructive, so in my view it needs to be mitigated. One thing I did a few days that was helpful to me is I wrote letter to each of the three people that had wronged me recently, and I really let it all hang out. I cursed, I ranted, I raved, I hurled insults, etc. Of course I won't send them but I got those feelings OUT of my body. I have promised myself to do that as many times as necessary. I am finding those feelings are finite, and slowly, as I get them out, peace is coming in. That 'peace' may be forgiveness. But forgiveness is not a feeling, it is a state of mind.

What I feel when this topic has been discussed, not here, but elsewhere, is that I have somehow been asked to 'cover up' those unpleasant feelings with the 'appearance of forgiveness' or the comportment of such. Here is where I might be offensive, but there are certain people that I have talked to about the real violations of my childhood, that insist 'forgiveness' is the only way, that imply that there is something wrong if I have not forgiven, or appear not to have. What has to be stressed, I think, is that there are many people walking around out there who have not acknowledged childhood abuse. Some of them are just holding together with paper clips and glue, and any mention of things like parental failure or violation threatens them terribly, because they need to hold that stuff down for their own psychological survival. The twinges of resentment I feel when I am around folks like this are telling me that I just need to disregard these folks. It's like my feelings are being disrespected, and I instead need to honor those feelings. Sorry if I am not making sense. I guess for me it is all about my feelings, to me I feel if I work on the feelings I hold inside, express them however I can, the forgiveness that comes is between my hp and I. If I am angry about being violated, to say I need to forgive does not help me. What helps me if for my anger to be honored, even if I am the only one that does so. I can talk to myself, talk to my inner child, tell them that I honor the fact that they are angry and feel violated. My feelings matter, that is the point. When I was younger, I was treated as if my feelings did not matter. Things were done to me as a child that if done to an adult would end up in court, aside from the sexual abuse. No wonder so many of us are angry as adults, as few rights as children have. I think there is something kind of wrong with telling people 'you have to forgive' just because it makes someone uncomfortable if I am angry, but not telling them HOW to get into a state of serenity and peace with the past. I think the way is through praying for the feelings of anger to be removed, and actively working on getting that anger out of my body, even if I have to write 1000 pages, or go up on a mountain top and scream for hours. Or in some cases, like friends of mine have done, write a list of the things the person did, go in their presence, read it off to them, and leave with or without the acknowledgement that did commit the wrongs. Whatever works to get the real, legitimate feeling of anger out of the body. Sorry I rambled on and that this makes no sense, but it's where I am at. What I refuse to do today is feign a state of mind that is not authentic to me.

I also love what you said at the end, about not "admitting defeat". That means that you honor your feelings, and hold them to be valid. Damn straight. What I realize now is that when I put myself in the shoes of the people that abused me, I wouldn't want to be the way they are or do the things they have done. I thank God that I am not that way, I do not have to live with that on my karma. I have not done the things they have done. I have won. I am sober, and I am not actively wronging people in the ways that they did. They did not defeat me, and they never will; they only defeated themselves by committing such egregious wrongs. When I look at it this way I mostly feel only pity and sadness towards them, instead of anger, and it takes all the power away from it.
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Old 04-15-2007, 03:10 PM
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Wow Lanie, thank you for that wonderful post.

Originally Posted by lanie67 View Post
... something happens
the person who screwed up apologizes after realizing they have done something wrong
the person who was wronged forgives them."...
You know, there's a couple pieces missing from that idea of forgiveness. Here they way I would modify it to fit _my_ idea of forgiveness.

... something happens _by accident_
the person who screwed up apologizes after realizing they have done something wrong _and never does it again_
the person who was wronged forgives them." ...

If the "something" was _not_ an accident, then it's a wole different issue for me. Even if it is an accident and they _keep_ doing it, then it is also a different issue altogether.

Originally Posted by lanie67 View Post
... It's been implied that I am "unforgiving" because ...
I dunno, around here we work our _own_ inventory and don't go around "implying" to other people what is none of our business. Sounds to me like you are taking care of your emotions, your learning from the experience and becoming a better person because of it. As to those who are "implying", well it's good that they are getting practice taking other people's inventories cuz some day that will help them take their own

Originally Posted by lanie67 View Post
...I am finding those feelings are finite, and slowly, as I get them out, peace is coming in....
awesome, and well done

Originally Posted by lanie67 View Post
... I think, is that there are many people walking around out there who have not acknowledged childhood abuse. Some of them are just holding together with paper clips and glue, and any mention of things like parental failure or violation threatens them terribly, because they need to hold that stuff down for their own psychological survival.....
What you are expressing here is called "compassion". Compassion for those who hide their pain by pointing fingers at others.

Originally Posted by lanie67 View Post
...I am sober, and I am not actively wronging people in the ways that they did....
That says it all right there, Lanie. Me thinks you're doing just fine.

Mike
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Old 04-21-2007, 04:30 AM
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Definition of forgive, according to the dictionary is:
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :

It really should be called :"resentness"....to give up resenting, not to PARDON someone. Two completely different words.
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Old 04-21-2007, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BigGirlPanties View Post
Definition of forgive, according to the dictionary is:
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :

It really should be called :"resentness"....to give up resenting, not to PARDON someone. Two completely different words.

That is so true, it should be called "resentness", lol thanks for putting it so succinctly. I am trying to 'forgive' people who attacked my character but I'm finding I need to completely remove myself from their vicinity, which was probably the point hp was trying to get me to see from the very beginning. Thanks for putting that literal definition in here; I think my definition was a little bit different than this and I am glad that I was wrong.
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Old 04-22-2007, 01:33 PM
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My definition of forgiveness was obviously skewed as well, thanks for the post with the literal definition. Now how in the world do I get started giving up resentment and not feeling like I said before, that I am admitting defeat?
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Old 04-22-2007, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by katie6 View Post


I don't know how I can forgive them though when there has been no apology or admittance of any wrongdoing. And why should I? To me, that seems almost like admitting defeat.

So I would really like someone to tell me why I am supposed to forgive them and how to even start. Anyone?
In my case, forgiveness was not for them it was for me.
I had to let go of wanting them to change.
I had to stop waiting for them to apologize.
I had to stop wanting them to love me.
I got to grieve the loss of my childhood.
I got to commit to myself to learn how to love myself.
I did not have to approve, condone or pardon their behavior.
I don't even have to use the word "forgive."
I had to admit that I had been affected by their behavior,
but that recovery would be my job not theirs.
I had to admit that the way I felt about them was hurting me.
Don't get me wrong, I get to be as hurt or angry as I need to be.
But I had to realize the opportunity to heal was inside me.
I get to take the power back.
I get to be my own hero.

This is a gradual process, how far are you ready to go?
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Old 04-22-2007, 08:33 PM
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Sunlight,
This is really beautiful. Literally, I had tears in my eyes. You nailed it.

When you have gone through recovery, and you've "become your own hero" as sunlight says, and you've become stronger and wiser than you were when the abuse happened...then the concept of "admitting defeat" just doesn't even enter the equation any more. I mean...it's not about winning. It's about building a life that you love, REGARDLESS of someone's mistreatment of you five or ten or twenty years ago. You can't change them. You can only admit that what happened happened, and try your best to drop your resentments in the nearest trash can and get on with life.

Easier to do when you don't have to face the people who are still living in denial, that's for sure. I couldn't forgive my family until I had some time far away from them.

Hugs,
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:23 PM
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I am listening to this talk by Bob. E here at this linking and his thoughts in the first few minutes helpful, especially what he terms 'intellectual forgiveness'.
On the lower part of the page, scroll down til you see 'Bob E' and click on it, it plays in real player.
http://www.elmoware.com/dld_fram.htm
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:19 AM
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""to grant relief of payment"" big key. to grant relief of what cannot be given, to accept, to accept that my mother cant accept my pain whichis a part of me without addressing her own, that she would rather say cruel and hurtful things rather than allow the pain to surface. o lord help me to forgive? im at a stage beyond anger, feels like shock. feels like powerlessness. i do believe god can restore me to sanity evenif i have no idea how right now. i feel just as abandoned as my mother does twards me for living my own life and no logner being the devotional son that wants to do everything to make her hapy (including shutting down emotionally and sacrifcing and martyring) she feels abandoned by me. lord help me. i turn it over to the care of the higher power because the painful fact that i cant do a thing is true and there is enough love in the higher power, the self, the recovery rooms to nourish me, but somehow i feel colder. and though i know i will have things change, i feel like the cord has finally been cut and that i have landed in darkness but at least i have my feet on solid ground. i still feel unnourished, but thanks god for friends who let me feel cherished enough to matter, to have value, to have worth, even if my parents and family show spite and hateful jealousy at my liberation and peace of mind without them.
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunlight81 View Post
In my case, forgiveness was not for them it was for me.
I had to let go of wanting them to change.
I had to stop waiting for them to apologize.
I had to stop wanting them to love me.
I got to grieve the loss of my childhood.
I got to commit to myself to learn how to love myself.
I did not have to approve, condone or pardon their behavior.
I don't even have to use the word "forgive."
I had to admit that I had been affected by their behavior,
but that recovery would be my job not theirs.
I had to admit that the way I felt about them was hurting me.
Don't get me wrong, I get to be as hurt or angry as I need to be.
But I had to realize the opportunity to heal was inside me.
I get to take the power back.
I get to be my own hero.

This is a gradual process, how far are you ready to go?
I hit "thanks", but it would not let me hit it twice- I want to, though. This is very helpful and very tender. Very helpfull, indeed.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by katie6 View Post
My definition of forgiveness was obviously skewed as well, thanks for the post with the literal definition. Now how in the world do I get started giving up resentment and not feeling like I said before, that I am admitting defeat?

If I had to add up how many times I've forgotten the concept of praying for what I lack I would probably be embarassed, but I always forget that if I am in a place where I need something spiritually that I do not have I can always pray for it. There is kind of a joke about hedging do to that because 'you get what you pray for, i.e. 'if you pray for patience you might get a lot of long lines'. But I can pray for forgiveness, I can pray for the people whom I resent. For me sometimes I have to ask, why is this important, why is it important for me to forgive? For me the answer is because alcoholics and addicts drink and use 'at' people. Anger is a feeling we don't deal with so well. A friend of mine told me a long time ago that she only realized when she got into recovery that her motto her whole life had been "I'll show you, I'll hurt ME." Anger causes us to do self-destructive things, the worse of which is drinking and using. I think that we work with a higher power to clear the anger and pain from our past hurts out of our lives because loving higher power knows that these emotions are hurtful to us. So I feel that if I ask hp to help me forgive, and am willing to do the active work of clearning out the negative emotions (by writing, talking about it, etc) then even if I am not 'there' yet, I have done what I could for that day.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lanie67 View Post
A friend of mine told me a long time ago that she only realized when she got into recovery that her motto her whole life had been "I'll show you, I'll hurt ME."
lanie,

this is so much better than anything I could ever offer. Oh, wow, if only I'd heard that 20 years ago, I could've avoided so much pain!!! Thank you thank you thank you

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Old 05-04-2007, 12:21 AM
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in alanon we have a blueprints for progress book as part of step 4 that focuses on many traits in our personal inventory. one such topic is RESENTMENT that helps a lot. for me,basicallly, listing the things,people and places i still feel hurt and angry about, still feel victimised by it, listing it is the first part. awareness, acceptance, action. daily prayer, but also daily reflection, focusing on choosing what would be a loving thought, a loving feeling, how is this thought helping me, DOES IT FEEL GOOD to feel this way or just help me deny and stuff away pain that something hurtful happened to me. i found a lot of resentment for me came out of a sense of indignance, a feeling of injustice. sometimes suffering and unfairness happens but as king jareth says to sarah in the movie LABYRYNTH when she says "Its not fair" he replies, "i wonder what your basis of comparison is".....in any case, resentment is the poison i take hoping another will die and only i suffer from my own inner smouldering indignation. i think anger is a necessary part of healing and comes up now and again. but its about seeing me as a victim, it holds on to the injustice but also disempowers the self as you are still waiting on something outside of yourself to make you feel at peace. acceptance is the key and to learn from the experiences "bad" or "good" in our life to make us richer beings, closer to a full whole person. this is for me.
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