What methods of manipulation do you use?
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Keepin' my side of the litterbox clean
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What methods of manipulation do you use?
I learned a great deal from the discussion on emotional manipulation. It's particularly helpful to me when I see opinions from both the codie's side of the fence and the alcoholic's side. So what I'm putting out for discussion here is strictly for those of us non-A's/codies.
I started looking at my manipulative behaviors; some where overt, some were covert. But I know that regardless of whether or not I was aware I was manipulating, I always felt my compulsion to control was the prime motivator. "Let me explain you to you." "Let me do all the emotional work in this relationship and talk and talk and talk..." blah, blah, blah. "Let me say I'm sorry when I'm really not just so you'll 'like' me again and stop giving me the cold shoulder." Whew! I could go on and on, now that I think about it.
That compulsion to fix someone, that need to love them right out of their addiction, that need to see a broken child I could put back together. Never mind that I was a broken child who was in dire need of fixing. Hey, give me a project and I can do it. Somewhere along the line I lost sight that the first project had to be me ...
I started looking at my manipulative behaviors; some where overt, some were covert. But I know that regardless of whether or not I was aware I was manipulating, I always felt my compulsion to control was the prime motivator. "Let me explain you to you." "Let me do all the emotional work in this relationship and talk and talk and talk..." blah, blah, blah. "Let me say I'm sorry when I'm really not just so you'll 'like' me again and stop giving me the cold shoulder." Whew! I could go on and on, now that I think about it.
That compulsion to fix someone, that need to love them right out of their addiction, that need to see a broken child I could put back together. Never mind that I was a broken child who was in dire need of fixing. Hey, give me a project and I can do it. Somewhere along the line I lost sight that the first project had to be me ...
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: asia
Posts: 45
Umnnn... if he didn't get it by the 1500th time i had overtly asked, hinted, psychically willed, I pouted, reverted to the silent treatment, or let out a torrent of snide remarks. God I was sick! I still am but I feel a little less so because now I have awareness that it is a problem trying to control others... and especially so when I have so little hold on my own life. Awareness is priceless. They should do one of those mastercard commercials on it.
Becoming a Butterfly
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 904
One of my favorites was shame. I remember we had a project in our backyard that he said he was going to finish for about two years. Finally one day I went out there on purpose when I knew he'd see me and did about a half-hour's worth of heavy labor until he was so ashamed of himself that he came out and started working.
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In my little piece of heaven
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Sarcasm
"I'll just do it myself"
Talking negatively about him to other people where he could hear it.
I've made my amends - both to those people I harmed and to myself. My living amend is to NOT do that stuff anymore!!
"I'll just do it myself"
Talking negatively about him to other people where he could hear it.
I've made my amends - both to those people I harmed and to myself. My living amend is to NOT do that stuff anymore!!
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 34
I would say things like, "What would your son say if he knew you were drinking again? You'll alienate him for the rest of your life, blah, blah, blah...".
My AH has been estranged from his 17 yo son for over a year and have only seen each other 2 times - one being christmas. Needless to say, that ploy didn't work, he's still drinking.
My sponsor pointed out to me that I would say things that I thought would force him to acknowledge his drinking in a back handed way like "I don't want to see you so soon after a relapse". A relapse that he vehemently denies. Like if I made this condition, he would confess and get sober. Yeah, right.
I now have to stop and think "what is my motive for saying _______" before opening by big yap.
Karen
My AH has been estranged from his 17 yo son for over a year and have only seen each other 2 times - one being christmas. Needless to say, that ploy didn't work, he's still drinking.
My sponsor pointed out to me that I would say things that I thought would force him to acknowledge his drinking in a back handed way like "I don't want to see you so soon after a relapse". A relapse that he vehemently denies. Like if I made this condition, he would confess and get sober. Yeah, right.
I now have to stop and think "what is my motive for saying _______" before opening by big yap.
Karen
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
sarcasm was my second language with my x. i always thought sarcasm as being quick witted and intelligent. until i read what the word means....it means tearing flesh.
i would use sarcastic arrows like i had pulled them from a pack on my back....sling them unashamedily into his sick soul and then feel real good.
but only for a few moments.
ummmm....other forms of manipulation was always, in a very quiet way, waving around in front of him, all my lifes accomplishments, financial standing, family ties, sea of close friends......like he was so f-ed up not to have these things, too.....and if he would only do what i said, he could be like me.
god, this is hard to put down in black and white.
there were so many forms of manipulation on my part.
which made me no different than him.....not one damn bit different. we just had different goals.
the real eye opener, also, was that this was me. not just with him. with others as well. i've made many amends.
the one thing i pray for is that some day, i will able to make amends to him. right now, i can only discuss the amends to him with god, for to make amends to him now, would cause him harm.
great thread, prod.
there's so much more i could address, but i think i've reached my limit of self-exploration at the moment. sometimes, it just feels real crummy to realize one may be just as big of an a$$ as the alcholic in their lives.
but this is where freedom rings!!!! let me see it, know it, claim it, and change it!!!!!
i would use sarcastic arrows like i had pulled them from a pack on my back....sling them unashamedily into his sick soul and then feel real good.
but only for a few moments.
ummmm....other forms of manipulation was always, in a very quiet way, waving around in front of him, all my lifes accomplishments, financial standing, family ties, sea of close friends......like he was so f-ed up not to have these things, too.....and if he would only do what i said, he could be like me.
god, this is hard to put down in black and white.
there were so many forms of manipulation on my part.
which made me no different than him.....not one damn bit different. we just had different goals.
the real eye opener, also, was that this was me. not just with him. with others as well. i've made many amends.
the one thing i pray for is that some day, i will able to make amends to him. right now, i can only discuss the amends to him with god, for to make amends to him now, would cause him harm.
great thread, prod.
there's so much more i could address, but i think i've reached my limit of self-exploration at the moment. sometimes, it just feels real crummy to realize one may be just as big of an a$$ as the alcholic in their lives.
but this is where freedom rings!!!! let me see it, know it, claim it, and change it!!!!!
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Join Date: Aug 2002
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We certainly aren't alone in this. Here's a reading from Courage to Change ODAT in Al-Anon II
We humans are wonderfully adaptable. We find creative solutions to impossible situations. One coping skill that some of us develop is manipulating other people in order to get what we want. Alcoholism can create such a threatening environment that manipulation seems necessary. Today, with the help of Al Anon, we are learning to do more than merely survive, and such manipulation becomes unnecessary and unacceptable. In Al Anon, we learn healthier ways to meet our own needs and to behave towards others.
Manipulation had been a normal part of my life for so long that I forgot how to have a discussion or make a straightforward request. If I wanted someone to do the dishes, I tried to make them feel guilty by telling them how much I had done for them, or I complained that they never did their part. It never occurred to me that I could simply and politely ask for what I wanted, or that I could accept my request being turned down! But I’m learning. A day at a time I’m learning.
Today’s Reminder:
Today I am creating a better way of living, free of guilt and deception.
“We choose to behave with personal integrity, not because it will make someone else feel better, but because it reflects a way of living that enriches and heals us.”….. In All Our Affairs.
We humans are wonderfully adaptable. We find creative solutions to impossible situations. One coping skill that some of us develop is manipulating other people in order to get what we want. Alcoholism can create such a threatening environment that manipulation seems necessary. Today, with the help of Al Anon, we are learning to do more than merely survive, and such manipulation becomes unnecessary and unacceptable. In Al Anon, we learn healthier ways to meet our own needs and to behave towards others.
Manipulation had been a normal part of my life for so long that I forgot how to have a discussion or make a straightforward request. If I wanted someone to do the dishes, I tried to make them feel guilty by telling them how much I had done for them, or I complained that they never did their part. It never occurred to me that I could simply and politely ask for what I wanted, or that I could accept my request being turned down! But I’m learning. A day at a time I’m learning.
Today’s Reminder:
Today I am creating a better way of living, free of guilt and deception.
“We choose to behave with personal integrity, not because it will make someone else feel better, but because it reflects a way of living that enriches and heals us.”….. In All Our Affairs.
Becoming a Butterfly
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 904
I also used to try to control things with rules. He'd sneak beer in a 7-11 cup so I'd make this crazy rule, "No more Big Gulp cups in this house! EVER!"
Duh. I must have sounded demented sometimes
Duh. I must have sounded demented sometimes
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
"Look at everything I do around here." That was a big one for me. 90% of the time I didn't say it out loud. I sighed - a lot! A few years ago, when one of my nephews was about 6 or 7, he said, aunt denny, you sure sigh a lot. It really got me thinking.
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,812
Anything that worked.
I tend to be a student of human nature..... Im able to focus and watch people.... and really figure out who they are....
Once you know who a person is figuring out the form of manuplations to use on them is easy and I could usually manuplate the situation to what I wanted. It was only with growth and recovery that I finally figured out that when I force what I want to happen, it will not only fall apart but it will be alot more hurtful to everyone.
Every single day..... Gods will not my will.
I tend to be a student of human nature..... Im able to focus and watch people.... and really figure out who they are....
Once you know who a person is figuring out the form of manuplations to use on them is easy and I could usually manuplate the situation to what I wanted. It was only with growth and recovery that I finally figured out that when I force what I want to happen, it will not only fall apart but it will be alot more hurtful to everyone.
Every single day..... Gods will not my will.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Sarcasm, shame, anger. Really the same thing, just in different forms. I used them all. Then later, I realized that fear was the emotion under it all. Fear was motivating me to do and say all these awful things. As if piling my disappointment in him on top of his self-loathing would solve anything. When I realized that I didn't like myself anymore, that's when I had to do something different. He did get sober, but there was too much damage to the relationship to repair it. This is why it is so important to focus on ourselves, even though the automatic response is to focus on them. Not only does it not help anything, it can make things much worse.
L
L
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dixie
Posts: 612
Years ago, my AH was a traveling insurance salesman. This was probably the best job an A could have, because 1) his car was his office, 2) this was before cell phones were invented, so there was no accountability during the work day, 3) and he could just drink and drive all day long without being disturbed. I used to get up early in the morning and make him a big lunch and pack it in a cooler along with some cokes, etc. I thought if I could get him to eat something, then maybe he would not get so drunk.
Of course... it didn't work.
Of course... it didn't work.
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by prodigal 
I started looking at my manipulative behaviors; some where overt, some were covert. But I know that regardless of whether or not I was aware I was manipulating, I always felt my compulsion to control was the prime motivator. "Let me explain you to you." "Let me do all the emotional work in this relationship and talk and talk and talk..." blah, blah, blah. "Let me say I'm sorry when I'm really not just so you'll 'like' me again and stop giving me the cold shoulder." Whew! I could go on and on, now that I think about it.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 77
Oooooouch...
Told on him to other people I knew he was misleading. Depositing wisdom in his ears or ask hard questions. You know - anything to do with him, and not me.
And that's just today. Again, ow.
Did I journal today? Pray? Even read today's "Keep it Simple" entry? Nope.
Onward and upward...
Told on him to other people I knew he was misleading. Depositing wisdom in his ears or ask hard questions. You know - anything to do with him, and not me.
And that's just today. Again, ow.
Did I journal today? Pray? Even read today's "Keep it Simple" entry? Nope.
Onward and upward...
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Keepin' my side of the litterbox clean
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Yeah, I've had the burning desire to snitch to his latest boss and call him to give him names just so he could learn he's not the first one to be conned. AH's previous boss spoke with me, but I was not calling to give information, I just needed to find out why AH was in the basement crying and not going to work. AH just said, "Something is wrong." Well, I had to find out from a reliable source, and I certainly got an earful from the former boss. I didn't even need to ask questions, but the answers he gave me were quite revelation! This time I reasoned, "Why call his boss? AH will eventually trash this job too, so it's NONE OF MY BUSINESS."
Yeah, I fogot the all-too-familiar sarcasm. Man, did I have one evil tongue. And the martyrdom. "Look at ALL the work I do around here." "Well, I' ust have to pick up another one of your piles of dirty clothes strewn throughout the house." "Yeah, let me vacuum up the broken glass all over the floor." MAJOR SIGH.
Yeah, I fogot the all-too-familiar sarcasm. Man, did I have one evil tongue. And the martyrdom. "Look at ALL the work I do around here." "Well, I' ust have to pick up another one of your piles of dirty clothes strewn throughout the house." "Yeah, let me vacuum up the broken glass all over the floor." MAJOR SIGH.
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,812
One of the hardest things I have had to re-learn is to keep my hands off and sit back and let things happen.
I was always of the mind to "fix" it, and of course to fix someone you have to change them because they are broken not me. Even if no one was "broken" and it was just life happening ..... if it was not how I thought life should be, I would have to "fix" it. That was the excuse I used alot for manuplation.
Sometimes you just have to let things go, they are not always good for you nor will they make you happy....
I try really hard today to just live my life and make decisions about my personal happiness. If there is an issue, I will bring up how I feel about it and then keep my hands off (well try too) .. if the issue is important and it does not change.... I either learn to accept it or I learn to walk away... and I have to remember that is all I can do is make the decisions I need to for me.
I was always of the mind to "fix" it, and of course to fix someone you have to change them because they are broken not me. Even if no one was "broken" and it was just life happening ..... if it was not how I thought life should be, I would have to "fix" it. That was the excuse I used alot for manuplation.
Sometimes you just have to let things go, they are not always good for you nor will they make you happy....
I try really hard today to just live my life and make decisions about my personal happiness. If there is an issue, I will bring up how I feel about it and then keep my hands off (well try too) .. if the issue is important and it does not change.... I either learn to accept it or I learn to walk away... and I have to remember that is all I can do is make the decisions I need to for me.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
there were so many virtual acts of manipulation that really didn't amount to a hill of beans....however, it was the INTENT that was there....it was a way of life, a way of thinking, a way of being....it was the way, baby.
that intent grew like a strange, alien mold in my mind and heart. it became who i was. every action was not honest any longer. it was always disguised in deceit.
again, i was no different than the alcoholic in my life....i just appeared more acceptable because i didn't get drunk along with my character traits.
i developed these traits early in childhood as a way to survive. as an adult i chose someone i could continue to use the familiarity with.
manipulations.....buying thick glasses so they wouldn't hold much liquid...buying big, chunky ice cubes, so as to displace the liquid....pouring part of the booze out and ice tea into the whiskey jug.....fixing high carb dinners in hope he would doze off to sleep.....telling him what a worthless person he was and how he had affected other peoples lives (groooaaannnn), making sure he understood no one wanted anything to do with him because of how he had hurt them (grooooooaaaannn).....
now this is going to sound like a very strange manipulation.....setting him up with checking and savings accounts, credit cards, good clothes, vehichle, insurance, nice jewelry, a job with a title, and a recliner. don't forget the recliner. god, i took away all his dignity in the name of love. thought i could set the stage for him, and he would take off on life. all i did was rob him of dignity, and feed my own ego.
this thread is good....but i'm going to need a session with my counselor again after i finish thinking all about it.
that intent grew like a strange, alien mold in my mind and heart. it became who i was. every action was not honest any longer. it was always disguised in deceit.
again, i was no different than the alcoholic in my life....i just appeared more acceptable because i didn't get drunk along with my character traits.
i developed these traits early in childhood as a way to survive. as an adult i chose someone i could continue to use the familiarity with.
manipulations.....buying thick glasses so they wouldn't hold much liquid...buying big, chunky ice cubes, so as to displace the liquid....pouring part of the booze out and ice tea into the whiskey jug.....fixing high carb dinners in hope he would doze off to sleep.....telling him what a worthless person he was and how he had affected other peoples lives (groooaaannnn), making sure he understood no one wanted anything to do with him because of how he had hurt them (grooooooaaaannn).....
now this is going to sound like a very strange manipulation.....setting him up with checking and savings accounts, credit cards, good clothes, vehichle, insurance, nice jewelry, a job with a title, and a recliner. don't forget the recliner. god, i took away all his dignity in the name of love. thought i could set the stage for him, and he would take off on life. all i did was rob him of dignity, and feed my own ego.
this thread is good....but i'm going to need a session with my counselor again after i finish thinking all about it.
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