Cynay

Well I’m having an issue.... currently I am sponsor shopping so I don’t really have someone to take this issue too.... SO, with that said, you are all my sponsors on this, if you don’t mind.

Here is what I have been thinking lately……..

I’m currently single and dating. Two of the gentleman I’m dating are normies… One is a recovering Alcoholic that works a pretty amazing program. All of them are really great guys…. And of course the one I would be most attracted to is the Alcoholic… duh… the reason is because he “gets it” and there is much more depth to him…. He works a program so he is willing and able to dig deep. The Normies look at me like I’m nuts when I start talking to them about depth… example is “Inner Child”. Now I know there are normies out there that are willing to talk about stuff like that, but they will never “get it” just like I will never really “get it” with an Alcoholic.

But my issues are…. I want to be Normal. I want a normal life where the questions of Alcoholism are not a daily issue. I don’t want my life to revolve around AA/Al-anon functions, or my only friends being in the program… I don’t want to come in second to his recovery. I just want a normal relationship.

That being said, we know that an Alcoholic is always an Alcoholic right? That there sobriety depends on their working a program and paying attention everyday. If an Alcoholic does not work a program I have found they usually go back to “stinking thinking” and are more like a dry drunk…. Do you think a Codi does too??? Do we fall back into our unhealthy behavior? I know for me when I’m angry/hurt I can go back there in a heartbeat… Will it always be like this?

It has been pointed out that I will not be able to have a normal relationship/life because I’m not normal. I will always have to work on my recovery as well or I will fall back into the “stinking thinking” That I will never be normal. Just like an Alcoholic can never recover…. That I will never “recover” either. That in some way I will need to always work my program, maybe not to the extent I do today, but in someway.

I don’t know why I’m fighting this concept so much lately…. There is nothing going on in my life that warrants this thinking, but it is there none the less…I know that the term “normal” is perception but for this assume “normal” means without program.

What do you all think?

denny57

Cynay, are you hearing this in your meetings? This is thinking that some people in program where I am have, too. I reject it. I don't believe in co-dependancy as a disease "we" suffer from. I was co-dependent when I lived with an addict. I don't believe in "codieism."

My other issues that I bring from my past I continue to work on. I believe those issues were instrumental in my choosing the partner I did.

But no, I don't live in fear of falling back into "stinking thinking" or the rest of it. I know this is not a popular view with many people in my groups. Guess what? The 12 steps tell me that is none of my business - YAY!

I think your recovery shines because you are seeing your choices clearly. You're aware you're more attracted to the recovering A; means more digging into the whys.

I'm working on no longer sending myself those messages. Sometimes I will say something similar to what you have - and a very dear friend of mine in program will say - "where did that come from? It sounds like someone else wrote that script for you."

As always, take what you like and leave the rest.

((()))

deax

Doesn't it just suck when things get this confusing?

I dunno, I think we can always skip back into old behaviors if we don't remain mindful of our thoughts, feelings versus facts, and our actions. But I don't know how much I believe this 'never recover' stuff. I guess it depends on the person and a wide set of circumstances, but I think if you work hard to make certain positive changes in your life, there will come a day when the healthy responses become more normal and less work. After all, the point of working a program for codies is not to build your life around it, but to get healthier overall. With a healthy attitude, things look different and life takes a turn. Learning never ends- that's lifelong quest and we get better all the time. But part of being normal is also in how you define it, it's based on us. Maybe don't put so much stress on all this 'work,' don't let it define you and your identity. Put it to work in the outside world with non-recovery people, talk about other things; not everyone has to know what you're doing for you behind the scenes. Personally I share a lot less these days. Of course, a 'normie' doesn't have to and may not be able to "get it" on the same level, but if on the other hand a 'normie' is merely unwilling to be openminded and/or respectful toward the things that are important to you, then that's where you can put your recovery to work and say- you're not the one for me.

Did any of that make sense? LOL...
Hugs to you, Cynay.

FormerDoormat

"the reason is because he “gets it” and there is much more depth to him…."

I think that's the reason you'd LIKE to believe. The real reason you're attracted to him is because you feel the most comfortable with him. Why? Because you'd be right back in familiar territory - The Land of Oz. But you're not in Oz any more, Dorothy. You're in Kansas now.

Please ignore the man behind the curtain...

Cynay

You know you are right in Im comfortable .... but it is still different then that.

Sometimes when Im dating a normie and I want them to know me... I start to tell them about my childhood ...etc, they get really uncomfortable... actually most of them want to pretend it did not happen and dont want to talk about it.... They like their barbie doll. The others seem to drift away, one told me once goodbye, too much baggage.... This does not happen all the time, but enough.

Of course I have to be pretty close to them before I will open up about that, mostly because of the experiences but if I were to actually have a deep "relationship" with someone I would want them to know about all that. Because Alcoholics in recovery are so open about their disease they are less likely to react to my "baggage" and usually "get it".

Phinneas

What is normal? Don't we (at least we ACOAs) spend our life *guessing* at normal? I sure do.

And, careful what you ask for. I know many alcoholics who are healthy and self-aware and many *normies* who are positively clueless.

Yes and yes, IMO. A codie can also be dry - angry, needy and spiritually unfit, yes? We have a daily repreive, not a cure.

Acceptance is the answer for me. Things really changed when I really accepted myself for what I truly am - addict, alcoholic, ACOA... these are no longer *bad* labels for me. They mean I get to work on my stuff and have amazing growth as a result.


Only you have the answers, Cynay. (That's the hard part, eh?) Keep the faith in yourself - in that little inner voice that *knows*.

denny57

I think that's a good point, Cynay. "Normie" by whose definition?

FormerDoormat

I think they have trouble getting it because they haven't traveled a similar path. That doesn't mean they can't get it in time. And while your man in recovery certainly gets it and likely shares a similar upbringing, his life is still centered around alcohol--or in his case--avoiding it.

Wouldn't you like to--just for once--be totally free of having to consider alcohol as a factor in your life? I know I would.

Cynay

Denny Im not hearing this in meetings... Just my thoughts while dating and noticing the difference between the two. The difference is pretty noticeable.


Just for this, think of Normie as not working a program... not Alcoholic just a normal Joe.

FD ... that is what Im talking about, it would be wonderful to share a glass of wine on a romantic date and not have to think about the disease.... But the problem is, I still have to think of Alcohol cuz of my disease... Because of my recovery I still think about my Mom, My daughters father, ex-boyfriends... because they are intertwined with my recovery... so even if my partner is normal... will I ever be?

appleblaster

I totally relate Cynay. Sometimes i'm so immersed in the recovery/al-anon/aa life that I long for the days when I wasn't so aware. Although I never want to go back to the insanity, I wonder why in the world do I ever have to deal with insanity in the first place???? Isn't it my right to just be okay in the world....or is that me being guilty of a sense of entitlement? Will I have to go to al-anon meetings for the rest of my life? I use the lingo, slogans and they are so helpful but sometimes I feel like a drone. If there was a planet Codependent I feel like that's where I live and breathe.

Maybe i'm feeling sorry for myself but sometimes I just don't want to deal with it. Perhaps that's what complacency is. I become overwhelmed easily these days as if I don't know which direction to turn. They all look good and i've seen proof of it working in people's lives. I guess if I feel this frustrated and confused the alcoholic feels that times one hundred.

sigh...i know....keep coming back..... hee hee.

kermit

Now I'm still pretty messed up, but here is my take. What is wrong with a life around AA/ Allanon? The people i have met there are way more "normal" to me then most, mostly because they are just like me! Normal is different for everyone.For my sister the laundry is wash folded and put away.. for me..well you all know I let it pille up. We all do different yet it is normal for us. If you connect with someone you connect, thats it. If you are comfortable in your surroundings,isn't that what we want? Who cares where that place is AA?Alannon or at the mall shopping.. ?
Maybe I'm off track..

denny57

I agree kermit, I think what I'm trying to say is I have met people who have done the work on themselves, but not because of involvement with an A or whatever. So there are "normies" out there who do "get" it because they've also done the work.

One of my very favorite people from program says it best for me: I come to Al-Anon so I can live, I don't live to come to Al-Anon.

appleblaster

kermit and denny thank you for reminding me. this is why i go to al-anon. this is why i keep researching and reading. i fight it and i whine when really its what the first step is all about.....accepting what is and surrendering. if i'm still fighting it, i surely have not accepted it. support comes in so many forms....thank you again for your insight. woot woot!

BigGirlPanties

Once a cucumber turns into a pickle, she can never be a cucumber again.

and just what is normal anyhow? Normal for me is a 12 step lifestyle. Its beats the misery and desperation I used to live.

It sounds like your forgetter has been tripped...like they say in AA...if your unsure this is what you want, then drop out for a short period of time and see it the new lifestyle works for you. If it doesnt, we'll still be there for ya.

prodigal

Just my opinion, but I think "normal" is a subjective term. I've met some great people during my life and had the privilege of working with some folks who didn't feel the need to bring their dysfunctional issues into the workplace (that's a rarity!), but that's not to say they didn't have issues. Everybody had issues, "normal" or not. Granted, some people have not had to live through the horrors of being exposed to alcoholism, but nobody I know has ever had a life that was out of a 60's family show.

I think revealing some of the things that have happened to you that have caused normies to back off may happen because they were not ready to hear it when you told them. Revealing the real deep emotional pain and "dirt" in our lives takes time. If a guy is so normal that he cannot lend a compassionate ear and appreciate the full picture of who you are, then I would question just how normal he really is! Will you ever be "normal"? I don't see you as being particularly abnormal. You've been traumatized, but you are aware of yourself, and self-awareness strikes me as a VERY normal, healthy quality to possess.

This brings to mind Joyce Meyer. Here was a woman who was sexually abused by her father, whose first husband left her abandoned in a motel room and stole her wedding band, if I remember correctly, to go out to buy drugs or booze. Her now-husband, Dave, is an upstanding, God-fearing man. And Dave certainly knew about the horrors of his wife's past. And he had to deal with a lot of her leftover pain and behaviors when they married. Yet today they have a 30-year-plus years successful marriage.

BigGirlPanties

normal is a term I used to think described a fantasty lifestyle that existed only in Hallmark cards.

The great house, handsome, sober hubby, few kids, lots of money etc...oh, and no problems, of course!

Normal is what I make it...for some its normal to wear no deordorant, never shave thier pits and sing hari-krishna all day long. Thats not "My" normal, LOL, but its theirs.

Astro

Gee, who would've thought I'd relate to this response from an alcoholic the most? For me going to meetings is normal, I just choose an AA meeting over PTA. Rather than going to a bar after work, I go have coffee with other alcoholics. If I go camping with my kids, I enjoy drinking green teas rather than the two cases of beer and fifth of bourbon that I used to bring with. There really isn't a single thing I did when I was drinking that I can't do in sobriety, so I don't consider being in the program as abnormal. All I really need is the conscious awareness that I can't drink again. Ever.

Thanks for sharing that, prodigal. This thread had me squirming a little bit because as an alcoholic I'd like to eventually live in Kansas rather than The Land Of Oz. I don't believe in the stereotypical alcoholic, but I can understand how some people react more strongly (I do appreciate the observation, Former Doormat) Yes, I will always be an alcoholic, but I know that I'm given a daily reprieve based on my spiritual condition, and I intend to keep it that way. I also have a healthy awareness of where I've been and don't want to be again.

How do people in recovery have a successful relationship? Do they attend meetings together or apart? Do they wake up in the morning and read the newspaper, or meditations? Do their conversations have to center on recovery, or can they discuss current events, their children, or something that's not related to their disease? I'm not sure, but what I do know is that when I do enter into a relationship with someone, I'll approach it much like I do my recovery. One day at a time, living in the moment, and knowing that I'm right where I'm supposed to be, "normal" or not.

My thanks to everyone who responded to this thread, and to Cynay for the topic. I'm still pretty early in my sobriety, and divorced not long ago, but I've been thinking I might be ready to try a relationship again. This thread has given me so much insight and more to think about. The opinions expressed are extremely varied and wildly different, just what I love most about Sober Recovery.

Scott

Cynay

Alright ... I think we are gettin to hooked up on the word Normal....

As I said, for this post think of Normal as not in a program.

See I do understand why an Alcoholic would want to stay in AA... They are addicted to Alcohol, I on the otherhand am addicted to the Alcoholic or the obsessive behavior.

If Im in a relationship with a non Alcoholic, could that relationship work without my working a program??? Maybe your right and I am now a pickle and cant go back, that I need to accept that my life will always have "program" in it....

This is not like PTA meetings, AA/Al-anon is more a lifestyle, If an Alcoholic walks away from their "program" the stand the chance of drinking again.... If a codi walks away from their "program" what happens? If my DOC is the Alcoholic and I have a relationship with a Non-Alcoholic with no program will I become sicker again???

Hurm, if my DOC is the Alcoholic, does that mean Im relasping if I date an Alcoholic?

Maybe Im just not making it clear.

denny57

I am not a pickle.

appleblaster

"Maybe your right and I am now a pickle and cant go back, that I need to accept that my life will always have "program" in it...."

That's exactly what I was trying to say but the words didn't come. I've laid low from the al-anon meetings at times for different reasons and i've always gone back. I always feel better when I go back....as if my "reset" button was pressed and now I can reboot for things to work properly. But it bothers me that this program has to exist in my life. I know it has to be there and i'm so grateful for it. Guess this is just a hangup of mine. I'm relitavely young in the program......only about 18 months so maybe this is a "normal" phase i'm going through.....accepting that i need a program......??