Throwing it back

Old 10-23-2006, 10:56 AM
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Throwing it back

Hi, I could use some insight from those of you that have dealt with verbal abuse. I have just finished reading two books: The verbally Abusive Relationship by Pat Evans, and Why Does he do that? by Lundy Bankroft--this one really blew me away. I devoured them in a few days sneaking a read whenever I could. In the bathroom, at work, in the car, wherever my husband wasnt. Get this, he mentioned I was in the bathroom for a long time one day and said, "Oh were you trying to make yourself pretty for me?" I had to laugh, if he only knew. I started to underline paragraphs that pertained to my relationship and got only a few pages into the book before I realized that I was underlining something on every page so I stopped. Not a good sign! Bankrofts book was deeply disturbing to me and I feel it has helped de-mystify my husbands abusive behavior. I know now that it's pointless to try make sense or analyze what he says, why he says it, how could I have responded differently, etc because it's all designed to keep me off balance and make me crazy. Evan's book gives a number of comebacks to verbal abuse. Both books make it clear that very few abusers ever change
This leaves me with two alternatives, either live with it for the rest of my life with him, or leave him. I am not prepared to accept either alternative right now.

My question is for those of you that have responded to the abuse by saying: Stop that, Cut that out, stop talking to me like that, just a few of Evans suggestions, did it help or make things worse? I have just started to throw it back at him, and yes I am afraid of the retaliation that could occur. Up until now, I have just taken it. Any advise?
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:24 AM
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Whatever you do, DO NOT believe him when he says you're being too sensitive or that he's only joking or that somehow it's your fault.
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:34 AM
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I liked both books, too, especially Lundys. In my case, it made no difference and over the years I became less sure of myself to even give it back. I had started to believe the crap he told me I was.

If you're afraid, I wouldn't bother. If he doesn't see it as a problem and try to get help for himself, nothing will change.

I'm sorry I put up with it for so long, but I'm happy I'm finally away from it.

Take care.
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:38 AM
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Oh, Those are his favorites: It's just a joke, I'm too sensitive, taking him too seriously, don't you know me better than that, I'm not purposely trying to hurt you, you have no sense of humor, blah blah blah. I don't believe any of it now. I'm trying not to listen to his words as what he said really doesn't matter--they are all intended to control and manipulate me. I'm trying to come back at him before I allow him to suck me in. This is very hard for me as I haven't done this before. If someone throws a rock through your window, you react instinctively to protect yourself. You don't sit around and wonder what kind of rock it was, how much does it weigh, why did they throw it.
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Old 10-23-2006, 12:38 PM
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I use "do not talk to me like that" alot. So much so that my son who is only 4, uses it when anyone raises their voice. If his sister talks back to me, he even tells her to "not talk to mom like that!"

I don't know what good it is doing, most times I don't respond at all. Which just gives him a reason to yell more (like they need a reason). When AH starts a tantrum about me not listening to him, I politely tell him that I am not responding to ANYTHING he says in that tone, or to any "just a joke" remarks. This will usually send him off into another room, not speaking to me....as if it's my fault.

I would say that it is teaching my children that I stand up for myself, without yelling, and that I will not accept being treated like that. There are alot of advocates for leaving, which may work for them, but financially it is not an option for me. So if you have to stay, you have to find your way to cope. It seems like you are already "on to" him, and know that much, if not all, of what an A is saying, is quite the opposite of the truth. I find myself walking away from many of AH's "speeches" just shaking my head and sometimes smiling and thinking: if he only knew how ridiculous he sounds.

Someone suggested videotaping during his outbursts. (sorry I can't remember who's post to give credit to). This seems like a good idea to me, to let them see what they look like and sound like. I just haven't come across the best way to do this yet, but that is what I plan to do. When we were watching a video from son's birthday, my AH (of course he has already drank plenty on this occassion), asked if he really sounded that nasty. I flatly told him yes, that is how he talks to everyone, especially me, when he has been drinking. He never said a word about it after that. That wasn't even when he was being abusive, just his normal (drunk) voice.

I am dealing more with the memory lapses currently. He drinks, He doesn't remember and I have to re-live every conversation of the previous day. I am not sure how far your AH has progressed, but there is a chance that he doesn't even remember the abusive stuff said. The day after some of our arguements, my AH used to say that he "doesn't want to talk about it" "it's done" "straightened it all out before" blah blah blah. I have now realized that he says these things because he CAN'T REMEMBER what the arguement was about or anything that was said.

I've read books too, in front of AH even. He was very mad the first time he saw one laying around, but just as I am not trying to change him, he knows he cannot change my opinion of alcohol. He made one comment about why I would get such a book, and I told him he is welcome to read it and decide for himself. I also told him that it was for ME, not him, and informed him that when I get done reading this book, he would not be able to control me or manipulate me anymore. He didn't like that, but I can slowly (oh so slowly) see things are a little better. Less arguements, less drinking, less manipulating (almost none really, because it is not working!), less secretive behavior, less rude remarks. Basically he is minding his P's and Q's for now, and yes I do know that is only temporary, but it is tolerable for now.

Let us know how it's going.
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Old 10-23-2006, 01:15 PM
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I would think that telling someone to stop talking to me like that could be helpful..I like the idea of videoing them in action. Take good care of yorself

((((lizzy girl))))))
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Old 10-23-2006, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lizzy girl
My question is for those of you that have responded to the abuse by saying: Stop that, Cut that out, stop talking to me like that, just a few of Evans suggestions, did it help or make things worse? I have just started to throw it back at him, and yes I am afraid of the retaliation that could occur. Up until now, I have just taken it. Any advise?

I did do that from time to time (still do...well,just state the truth but not try to make him "believe it" anymore...that is better IMHO) "Results"? haha.....AH blamed me for not "being supportive",etc.,etc.and moved out. He recently divorced me. Did me telling him I would discuss things later when we could both talk in a respectful manner,etc REALLY have much if anything to do with that....I doubt it. Alcoholics like to blame their alcoholic bad behavior on others and he got angrier when I wouldn't take the blame. It helped me,though.

If I feared he might turn physical,etc I found it best not to say anything at all and just try to remove myself from the situation. In fact; I preferred to do that most of the time. It is pointless and a waste of MY energy to argue or discuss anything with a person who has been drinking. Chances are good he would not remember it anyhow...or at least remember it factually.

I do feel like he has a little more respect for me again now that I do not allow myself to be bullied by him,but that may be partly because he knows that the dynamics in our relationship have changed (partly because of the divorce). (Before anyone asks why we have any "relationship"...we have two children.)

Do what is best for you. Good luck.
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Old 10-23-2006, 02:35 PM
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there was absolutely NO response i could give to my xah's verbal abuse that would work.

the defining word in above sentence being "work"

my definition meant making him realize his behavior and to stop verbally abusing me. his intent was totally different.....he was an abusive person. period. and on top of that, an active alcoholic.

i could not cure him, change him, make him see the light, embarrass him enough, humiliate him enough, yell at him enough, pout at him enough, make him feel sorry for you enough to stop his verbal abuse, or his drinking.

all i accomplished was making myself very, very sick emotionally.

and it got worse, escalated, progressed.

take care of yourself.....put him in gods hands and take care of yourself first.

god bless
jeri
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Old 10-24-2006, 05:30 AM
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I hate to be a wet blanket but if they don't see a problem then saying anything to them really doesn't do anything. And it becomes exhausting for you to be listening to it and trying to throw it back at them.. They just find new things to say and new ways to twist it.

You'll end up with your self-esteem eroded.

Ngaire
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Old 10-24-2006, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ngaire
I hate to be a wet blanket but if they don't see a problem then saying anything to them really doesn't do anything. And it becomes exhausting for you to be listening to it and trying to throw it back at them.. They just find new things to say and new ways to twist it.

You'll end up with your self-esteem eroded.

Ngaire

Yup!

It "shouldn't" be that way,but with an active addict,that has been my experience,too.

I often thought it would be easier talking to a tree,rock,etc because at least what I said would not get twisted around somehow back onto me as something somehow being "my fault"..... One day I actually "heard" what I was saying and stopped trying to reason with my AH when he was in this mode. (I can still vent to a tree,etc if I feel the urge. )
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Old 10-24-2006, 05:56 AM
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HolyQow wrote:
I am dealing more with the memory lapses currently. He drinks, He doesn't remember and I have to re-live every conversation of the previous day. I am not sure how far your AH has progressed, but there is a chance that he doesn't even remember the abusive stuff said. The day after some of our arguements, my AH used to say that he "doesn't want to talk about it" "it's done" "straightened it all out before" blah blah blah. I have now realized that he says these things because he CAN'T REMEMBER what the arguement was about or anything that was said.


This is so true, i spend everyday reminding him of what it is that he sd the day , the week before. I just recently have gotten to the point where i look at him and with the straightest, most none emotional look and i say" Never mind it's not worth the breath i waste". It took me a long time to even think that verbal slamming was a form of abuse, i mean at least he did not hit me like my first husband. I have come to relize that in some ways the verbal is worse, most of the time no one but me knows. Which makes me look like i am a real bi?#h, because there always seems to be someone around when i lash back the next day when he is not drunk. I know this may sound sick but at least when i got hit there was a bruise or mark and people understood my source of pain.
Good news is that as i have gotten older most days i could care less what others think.

Both books are great reading and they made me feel like i could identify, and what a feeling that is ................. just identifying...........
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Old 10-24-2006, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by lizzy girl
My question is for those of you that have responded to the abuse by saying: Stop that, Cut that out, stop talking to me like that, just a few of Evans suggestions, did it help or make things worse? I have just started to throw it back at him, and yes I am afraid of the retaliation that could occur. Up until now, I have just taken it. Any advise?
In my experience, when AH was on one of his abusive rants, it didn't matter what I said or did. He was completely irrational. If I ignored him he would just follow me around screaming at me. If I continued to ignore him he would start throwing/ slamming things/breaking things. If I responded...he did about the same thing. Consider yourself 'lucky' with the "I was just kidding". I never got that. If anything he would just pretend he never said it. Complete denial of something that he said seconds before. Talk about thinking you are going crazy. No matter how I responded, he would twist everything around to make it my fault.

Lundy's book was very eye-opening to me. It made so much sense, and I too was highlighting. I always thought AH was abusive beacause of some deep seeded anger issue from his past. Lundy's book says that abusers don't abuse because they are angry, they are angry because they are abusers. What a revelation!!!!

Someone suggested videotaping during his outbursts. (sorry I can't remember who's post to give credit to). This seems like a good idea to me, to let them see what they look like and sound like. I just haven't come across the best way to do this yet, but that is what I plan to do. When we were watching a video from son's birthday, my AH (of course he has already drank plenty on this occassion), asked if he really sounded that nasty. I flatly told him yes, that is how he talks to everyone, especially me, when he has been drinking. He never said a word about it after that. That wasn't even when he was being abusive, just his normal (drunk) voice.
I tried this once. I videotaped AH at our home the night we had a party for family and friends. When we watched the tape the next day he got VERY ANGRY and would not watch it. I never did it again.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by lostnotfound
I tried this once. I videotaped AH at our home the night we had a party for family and friends. When we watched the tape the next day he got VERY ANGRY and would not watch it. I never did it again.

Flashback! The few times the kids or I have ever said anything (later) about what happened,what was said,etc...that was the reaction...RAGE! AH then said I was making it all up to make him feel badly and look bad...that he would never do or say anything like that,that I was trying to turn the kids against him by making them believe those things happened (the kids were the ones that mentioned it most times;and the "kids" were in their teens!). Mine never thought it was "a joke" or kidding...... He just vented anger and frustration,especially when he was not the center of attention and his "command was not being obeyed".....that is when these situations
occured in our house.

It really is not logical thinking so reason is not involved. Just damage control. At least in our home. That is why he is not in it.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:46 AM
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I've not read either book, but they sound really interesting, might have a look on amazon later.

In response to the question. I've found that if I allow myself to take the bait and get into an argument with him it worsens.

If I argue back then he's got something to retaliate against and he just doesn't shut up...goes on and on and on....

If I use the "I'm not speaking to you about anything when you're drunk" or "Don;t speak to me when you're drunk" then I get the "you never listen"..."you always think you're right"..."you're incapable of listening to anything"...."there's no talking to you"...."you're so high and mighty"....

And when they're drunk there is no reasoning with them, there's no logic in place, they don't realise that they sound completely idiotic, that they're unapproachable etc...they think WE are the fools.

I agree with Pick A Name, the easiest thing to do is to leave the room, go to bed, go for a drive...remove yourself from the situation. Why waste your energy in arguing with someone who is incapable of reason, logic, common sense....and who won't even remember it tomorrow.

You'll probably end up in tears because of the frustration and he'll still think everything he says is right....pointless exercise.
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:21 AM
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Sometimes I did say.."Really?" or even agreed with him (if I saw there WAS truth)....that sometimes threw him. Still; the less said,the less of YOUR time and energy wasted. JMO
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Old 10-24-2006, 12:00 PM
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Or there is Oh? or That's Interesting.

But regardless, they can rationalize the irrational and who has time for that. Just because someone is living and breathing doesn't mean we have to spend time with them.

Ngaire
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Old 10-24-2006, 12:12 PM
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when mine was raging at me, i used to fantasize duct-taping him to a chair, stuffing a dirty, filthy, rotten sock in his mouth, and just sittin back and watch him struggle to scream at me, with the veins sticking out in his forhead and his eyes bulging out. "MIFFITT GWEEDER THIFF, U FANKKNN FFFPHT"

i reckon that makes me sick, huh?

jeri
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:29 PM
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I read my copy of Patricia Evans book last night on the verbally abusive relationship.

I was getting alot of what she describes,covertly at first than overtly.

They seem to get angrier and angrier especially as I was giving back Alanon/A.A answers and those seemed to be feeding the rage.

Ngaire
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Old 10-25-2006, 02:41 PM
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I get that!!! Rage, I haven't got my own opinions, only what I read on this BS board, lol..

Funny how everyones stories are so similar!
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Old 10-25-2006, 07:04 PM
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Similar stories. I just blows me away! REALLY! Do they take a class? Word for word! 'you're too sensitive, I was only kidding/joking, etc'. I really didn't even know he was trying to control me. How do they know to do that?
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