JessicaNAJ

G came by today to see the kids (with no hidden agenda like doing laundry either). I didn't mind. The kids missed their dad and I honestly felt like they needed to see him.

His behavior today was how it was a year and a half ago. He was calm..not edgy. He was able to conversate. And...he did not come over and sit on the couch watching TV the whole time (He did this the last time he came over to "see the kids" and I told him I didn't appreciate it.) He actually spent time with the kids. Played with them in the backyard for a while too. I know the kids enjoyed it.

I feel in my gut that he knows I'm at my wits end. Call me suspicious...but I think he's trying to look like "he's trying to pull it together" b/c he wants me to be pulled back in. But I'm too far along for that too happen.

I'm in a happy place...I plan to stay there.

ICU

His current actions might not have anything to do with trying to impress or reel you back in Jess.

Each time my ex got arrested, and after spending a night or two in jail, he too seemed somewhat subdued, serene, and 'seemed' to have changed a little. It unfortunately only lasted until a day or two after his final court date when he realized he wouldn't be sentenced to any more jail time. Then goodbye 'good behavior', hello 'unacceptable behavior'.

deax

Yeah, it's tricky. And ICU has a good point, R used to switch modes like that too after getting in trouble of various kinds. Who's to say how genuine it is...

Sure it might be a ploy to reel you back in. Or he might have actually wanted to be there today and see you and his kids. I think sometimes people have too much of a tendency to think every single move an addict makes has some secret manipulative agenda behind it. But they're people too, with their own feelings and their own good and bad days. So no one can know for sure what his motivations were. Just my opinion, of course...

But what matters and what you're already perfectly aware of is that it no longer matters how he "seems," or how he is today versus tonight versus tomorrow. What matters is how you feel, and what you need to stay in your 'happy place.'

denny57

Glad to hear you're in a happy place, Jess. And so glad to see you posting your incredible growth.

ASpouse

Every single move an addict makes does have a secret manipulative agenda to it! Haven't you realized that yet?

laurie6781

Deax as a recovering alcoholic who has BTDT I can attest that every move I made DID HAVE a secret manipulative agenda behind it! And every alkie/addict I know who is in recovery today will say the same thing.

Judy is correct.

The alkie and/or addict while practicing their affliction is an extremely Narcissitic person. No doubt about it.

Jessica you are doing great. Keep those barriers up and keep your eyes on you and your children. I am glad you are in a happy place!!!

Love and hugs,

deax

Thanks Judy and Laurie.... lemme see if I can clarify what I meant....

So I would be wrong in assuming that an alcoholic or drug addict never has moments when they really want to see their kids? Or moments where they really do regret things they’ve done, or really do hate their lives and want to change? I’m not by any means implying that they’re not always protecting and maintaining their addictions, but I never thought that they never had a genuine moment. If that’s the case, how does anyone ever hit bottom and reach a turning point? What I HAVE come to understand is that those moments and the best of intentions are negligible when there is no sustained action, that words and fleeting moments alone are not enough to be meaningful.

ASpouse

Yes, you would be wrong to make that assumption. Every action an alcoholic takes ultimately brings them right back to their addiction ..... booze!

For example: I drink because I love my kids and can't see them, I drink because I saw my kids today and I am happy so I am celebrating, I'm drinking because I'm so sorry I did such and such, I'm drinking because I'm so happy that such and such happened, I'm drinking because I know I have a problem and I just can't stop, I'm going to drink to prove to others that I don't have a problem, I'm not going to drink because everyone thinks I have a problem with drinking and I haven't drank for 7 days so I guess I'm OK so I'm going to have a drink.

You know what they say about the word "Assume" .... it makes an ass out of you and me!

So to repeat, YES you are making the wrong assumption.

It is my understanding and my experience that everything, every dam single thing an addict does always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS leads back to the one love of their life ..... their drug of choice, be it booze, drugs, sex, porn whatever the addiction is ..... their actions before recovery always lead them back to their addiction.

denny57

That's a beautiful post, Judy.

DesertEyes

Nobody on this forum can tell you what _all_ alcoholics or addicts do, feel or think. The only thing we can tell you is what our personal experience has been. People are very complicated creatures, adding a chemical dependency just makes the complications even more confusing.

What I have discovered about my "A" is that as long as I focused my efforts on trying to figure out if she was motivated or not motivated, having a moment of clarity or not, regretful or manipulative, etc etc etc, then I was _not_ focusing on the _behavior_ of my "A" and how it was affecting my life. For me, trying to "read her mind", was just a distraction from the _real_ issue, which was my enabling her.

My bottom happened when I realized that everything I had been doing was making my life _worse_ instead of better. That was not a "genuine moment", it was a moment of _fear_, of realizing that the aproaching light was _not_ the end of the tunnel but a freight train. A moment of realizing that the lies and manipulations i had been doing to _me_, and that I had foolishly believed, had gotten me in the tunnel in the first place.

That is exactly what I have learned.

Mike

deax

Right, Mike, I understand and agree with everything you said.

And this was basically what I thought I had said to Jessica- whether G is genuine or not in any given moment, which I don't believe anyone else can know for sure, she's doing what she needs to do in order to stay happy and peaceful, which is good.

ASpouse

That may be true Mike, but ask any alcoholic/addict and they will tell you exactly what I said.

You seem to have told deax exactly what she wanted to hear, which to my mind does not help in her recovery at all.

deax

Judy, I don't think it's a matter of what I WANT to hear. I understand what you're saying but sometimes I feel like addicts get de-humanized. I know words and moments of sincerity are not enough and they're definitely no longer enough for me in my situation- and they were for a long time. But I feel it woud be arrogant for me to assume to know what someone else's motivations are at all times, addict or not. What I need to work on every day is not spending all MY time trying to figure him out- and I'm aware of that and work toward it daily. And I feel I've defintely made some progress in that area. I don't think we're on such opposite sides of the fence here.

DesertEyes

My telling people what I heard other people say is called "hearsay". Which is why the "anon" programs strongly recommend that people attend open meetings of AA or NA, so they can hear it _directly_ from the horses mouth, and not interpreted by anybody.
With all due respect Judy, people here are adults and quite capable of decididing for themselves what will help them in their recovery or not. I am not a shrink that can read people's minds and have a vision of what they "want" to hear, or what will "help them" in their recovery.

Telling me what you think I should say or not say is called "cross-talk", and it is derailing the purpose of this thread. If you want to express your personal feelings about how people should share in this forum you are welcome to add new posts to Patty's thread on the subject.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ng-myself.html

Mike

ASpouse

Mike, you are so far off base here it's unbelievable, but since you are the Mod with the LOCK mechanism, I'll just say "Okie Dokie".

denny57

Jessica - sorry to derail the thread, but Mike - is this an Anon site or isn't it? My understanding is it is not, as not everyone here is in a 12-step program. Do we follow Anon traditions?

I think no cross-talk is impossible in a forum setting. Maybe a thread started by a mod explaining this.

Yours in confusion, Denny

So Confused

How True That It Is And How Hurtful To Learn

ASpouse

Oh and Jessica, good job with G ..... I'm sorry I neglected to say Good Job!

Patty, you are killing me with the Thanks!

pmaslan

I figure the "Thank you's " can't get me into any trouble
as my words may come across as cross talk and I sure don't
want to break any rules around here...All of a sudden there
seems to be a lot more of them.....

DesertEyes

Derailing a thread is disrespectful in _any_ online forum. It is also discouraged in group therapy settings and such. As far as SR it's listed in the rules here

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...gulations.html

See rule #8

A thread on the subject already exists, it is here

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ng-myself.html

Talking _about_ people is just plain rude.

Avoiding cross-talk is done simply by starting a new thread.

None of the above has anything to do with any 12 step group, although 12 step groups do follow similar principles.

Whadya think?

Mike