Crashnburn

...With spiritual, agnostic, pagan tendencies..
I'm an ordained humanist atheist who recognizes her belief in disbelief, & hangs out with atheists, agnostics, pagans, & humanists..A few witches too.
Getting off god was just as important to my survival as getting off drugs.
I wanted to leave a post in this fora to introduce myself, as I know how important it'll be in my continued recovery.
Nice to be here.

Autumn

Anything specific on your mind? I saw your post in the Newcomer's forum about having PTSD; there's a fantastic thread called a "sticky" in the Anxiety Disorders forum you might find very informative and useful. It was posted by Morning Glory, and is called "Emotional Trauma Memory Management". It's the first thread at the top of the page. There are others here who are diagnosed with PTSD also, so you will find lots of support.

Welcome to SR!

historyteach

Welcome Crashnburn to SR!!!
I hope to see you here often as we both grow in our recovery.

Shalom!

Bobbybanned

An ordained humanist atheist. That sounds so much more fascinating than a boring ol' atheist like myself. Though recently I have discovered I am probably a naturalistic atheist of sorts. But then again I am just a guy. I am also pleased to meet you.
If I may be so bold to ask, as I am curious, do you experience any inner-conflict
due to your belief in disbelief vs. your spititual, agnostic, pagan tendencies? Or is it that your disbelief is directed toward traditional beliefs in general? I'm just curious. I thought it may open a door for discussion if that is what you were interested in.

And as Autumn said (and historyteach)....
Welcome to SR.
Bobby

PS....Autumn (and historyteach) are too cool!

aloneagainor

Astute observation you make about beliefs. Beliefs one maintains as "fact" can be destructively constricting and restricting, suffocating the life out of the recovery pillar of open-mindedness. And I'll add harmful to honesty and willingness as well. Beliefs distort. Far better to remain open to the possibilities. And choose for yourself what you'll accept and reject as valid or invalid as it agrees with your own sense of reason. It takes more work than blind following of any religion or program, but I'd suggest it's also more REAL and enduring in the end. That is, to the engaged, thinking mind, it is...
Good to meet you.

historyteach

Not everyone who follows a program or a religion does so blindly, though.
Some put MUCH active effort, thought and heart into them.

Shalom!

Autumn

Thanks Bobby. You seem like a cool guy yourself.

aloneagainor

Engaging one's own reason to consciously determine their understanding, regardless of what text, program, religion, etc. they use to find it, is all about awareness and understanding, and that is the ideal. All sources/ resources open to consideration.

The "blind" that distorts is in adherence to beliefs. Beliefs are rigid, fixed, exclusive. And when beliefs are used as fundamental truths, that's dangerously unstable ground on which to walk.

Bobbybanned

This is very true.
Even though I am unable to agree with the actual following of a religion, I have come to appreciate some particular individuals for certain virtues I recognize and hold dear. For quite some time, I had turned my head simply because I didn't agree with the whole. I was missing out on things as a result. Since opening myself up (which I am constantly trying to increase) I have experienced somethings that I otherwise would have missed out on, and I discovered it didn't cost me anything. I've come to enjoy listening to opposing belief systems and the like, and have much respect for those who hold them, even though I do not agree.

Not that I am defending Aloneagainor, as it is not necessary as the point she was making is valid and speaks for itself. But the truth is that there was no suggestion of any particular person following any belief blindly. The point was direct. Not directed at another.

Historyteach, I do direct this comment to you as a friend. I thank you very much for directing me to secular connections as my life has been enriched due to the experience. (you had done so after I posted in the spirituality forum) I am very grateful for this.

historyteach

Alone;
I completely agree with the upper half of your post.
With respect, I disagree with the lower. Beliefs can be, and are often, evolutionary. That certainly has been my experience, anyway! And they evolve based on knowledge aquisition.
However, I would agree that *rigid* beliefs can be dangerous.

Bobby, I'm happy to have helped, and I'm very glad you're here and enjoying it. I think you add quite a bit, too! Thanks for those contributions you make.

Shalom!

aloneagainor

And that knowledge aquisition is...subjective based. Which is why I find beliefs constricting. They are subjective foundations disguised as reality.

Ngokpa

I'm a Buddhist myself, which is about being here. Nothing wrong with doubt; it has it's own truth. We can open ourselves to a bigger truth than our little dog and pony show, but we never quite get it right.

Thought I would share this with you. In Buddhism, "god" is more a figure of speech.

One day Mara, the Buddhist god of ignorance and evil, was traveling through the villages of India with his attendants. He saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up in wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara's attendants asked what that was and Mara replied, "A piece of truth." "Doesn't this bother you when someone finds a piece of the truth, O evil one?" his attendants asked. "No," Mara replied. "Right after this they usually make a belief out of it."

From Soul Food, by Jack Kornfield and Christina Feldman

historyteach

Good one, ngokpa!

Again, with respect, I disagree. KNOWLEDGE aquisition. Subject to investigation and experimentation. Yes, even the scientific method.

For those who are leary of or disbelieving of this statement, I encourage you to investigate. You can get an intellectual history of Judaism called "Jewish People, Jewish Thought," and that will satisfy your curiosity about what constitutes rigor in investigation.

Seems that you may be making a *belief* about religion.
They're not all the same!

But, in the interrum, I will simple agree to disagree. :>)

Shalom!

aloneagainor

gets to the heart of the matter about the inherent problem in maintaining beliefs. Perspective on what is "fact" is subjective. Beliefs are not fact. Even what is commonly accepted as proven fact remains subject to change based on further evidence.

from Antony deMello's The Way to Love
"Look into yourself and examine your reactions to persons and situations, and you will be appalled to discover the prejudiced thinking behind your reactions. It is almost never the concrete reality of this person or that thing you are responding to. You are responding to ideologies, belief systems, economic, political, religious, psychological belief systems, to preconceived ideas and prejudices, whether positve or negative. Take them one at a time, each person and thing and situation and search for your bias separating the reality here before you from your programmed perceptions and your projections. And this exercise will afford you a revelation as divine as any that the Scriptures could provide you with."

Of course we're all free to agree to disagree, though I think continually remaining open to look at all sides of everything is the better option. Always with full respect, of course, that's understood.

windysan

I'm a Bishop of the Idiot Church. Does that count for something?

aloneagainor

I had to leave that Church behind too upon discovering cow pie heaven was only an illusion. And I was a self-ordained Minister to my flock, but they merely tolerated my ramblings and carried on about their hunt and peck business as a good passively loyal following will do.

Crashnburn

Wow, I opened a big can o' worms here...That's what I get for posting at 6AM!

To each their own....& Whatever gets you through the night..

For myself, personally, I had to stop magical thinking, & superstition for myself because it was a way of telling myself that it would work itself out without my participation. It allowed me to be lazy.

Everyone's experience of this world is different, what helps one will not help another.

Bobby, I can defend agnostics, but can't be one. My disbelief is now that strong. It's a personal choice, & I can defend it aptly on that level.
My faith does lie in nature, because eventually nature will be making one or more choices for all of us...Whether we like it or not.
....Onward.

Oh, & thanks Autumn.

equus

Hi there crash!!

Hope you stick around (next time bring blu-tack to stick the lid back on the worm tin!!).

It's good to have new blood in here....

paulmh

I don't get this thread at all.

Welcome, crashnburn! Your introduction certainly did make an impact!

A genuine state of scepticism is closer I think to a meditative state than to an intellectual one. Closer to a state of non-scrutiny than scrutiny. Learning to live with what we do not know is a challenge, and one that I think manifests itself in humility. If I assert that I know nothing, then start to rule out other people's beliefs as somehow inferior, then I'm contradictory. I'm assering that I know that other people are wrong. If I am truly open-minded I cannot make that assertion.

Ruling out the "beliefs" of others - you'll know I'd rather distinguish bentween "beleifs" and "prejudices" - is contrary to open-mindedness. I do it all the time! But I'm less bad at than I once was. There is an immense amount of wonderful, inspirational exposure to the human journey in all sorts of places - I don't just have to read Boethius to find philosophical consolation, but also St Thomas a Kempes. Or Primo Levi. To rule out traditions, beliefs, reservoirs of experience just becuase I think someone else's beliefs are too "rigid" is to deny my own scepticism. And I write that as someone who as only undertakn one pilgrimage in his life, to the birthplace of Diogenes of Sinope. Like so much else in my life, a waste of time. Scepticism is a healthy state of being, but not a healthy state of mind. Purpose is a healthy state of mind.

aloneagainor

Crash,
Your mention of worms called to mind a long forgotten favorite poem. I don't do poetry, mostly it sails right over my head, but this piece from e.e. Cummings sticks in mind:

Nobody loses all the time
i had an uncle named Sol who was a born failure and
nearly everybody said he should have gone into vaudeville
perhaps my Uncle Sol could sing McCann
He Was A Diver on Xmas Eve like Hell itself
which may or may not account for the fact that my Uncle

Sol indulged in that possibly most inexcusable of all
to use a highfalootin phrase luxuries that is or to wit
farming and be it needlessly added

my Uncle Sol's farm failed because of the chickens
ate the vegetables so my Uncle Sol had a chicken farm
til the skunks ate the chickens when

my Uncle Sol had a skunk farm but the skunks caught cold and died
and so my Uncle Sol imitated the skunks in a subtle manner

by drowning himself in the watertank
but somebody who'd given my Uncle Sol a Victor Victrola
and records while he lived presented to him
upon the auspicious occasion of his decease a scrumptious not to mention
splendiferous funeral with tall boys in black gloves and flowers and everything

I remember we all cried like the Missouri when my Uncle Sol's coffin lurched
because somebody pressed a button
and down went my Uncle Sol
and started a worm farm