ACoA vs. Alanon
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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ACoA vs. Alanon
I have another issue that I wonder if anyone else has experienced.
I've always been sssooo comfortable with alanon meetings. And by comfortable I mean understood and safe, not that I was necessarily hearing exactly what I wanted to hear.
One thing I have never really understood though..... I've had quite a few instances where individuals at meetings have shrugged off my problems with my parents as being less than their much more serious issues with their spouses or children. I don't deny that those relationships are or should be more vital to our daily lives as adults. But I've dealt with alcoholic and abusive spouses (and the resulting divorces) and my child's own alcohol/drug abuse "research" and I'm able to do that. Meaning I can follow the program, state what I will and will not do, follow through and still be a functional adult. But my Dad can yell at me one time and I'm reduced to the mental state of a five year old hiding behind the couch. And it lasts a really long time.
Is that "normal" for us? To be able to deal with one and not the other?
I've always been sssooo comfortable with alanon meetings. And by comfortable I mean understood and safe, not that I was necessarily hearing exactly what I wanted to hear.
One thing I have never really understood though..... I've had quite a few instances where individuals at meetings have shrugged off my problems with my parents as being less than their much more serious issues with their spouses or children. I don't deny that those relationships are or should be more vital to our daily lives as adults. But I've dealt with alcoholic and abusive spouses (and the resulting divorces) and my child's own alcohol/drug abuse "research" and I'm able to do that. Meaning I can follow the program, state what I will and will not do, follow through and still be a functional adult. But my Dad can yell at me one time and I'm reduced to the mental state of a five year old hiding behind the couch. And it lasts a really long time.
Is that "normal" for us? To be able to deal with one and not the other?
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: where I need to be
Posts: 30
I've never gone to a meeting, so I haven't had that exact experience, but I have had the experience where my issues have not been seen as seriously. My parents are addicts, and honestly, it is a mild drug that they are addicted to. But the things they did and they way they acted were the ways that addicts would act. It took me a long, long time to be able to make peace with myself that I wasn't stupid for feeling the way I feel.
I sometimes still feel that way, like "I should be over this by now" becuase I live so far away from my parents and I have me own life. I am a fully grown and responsible adult, who doesn't need to count on her parents anymore. But it still affects me. When I have told people what my parents are, I have definitely gotten the "So what?" look or been told it isn't a big deal.
I've never had my own addiction or dealt with husbands or children with addictions. But I have gone through the experience of being treated like my problems weren't worthwhile. So you aren't alone.
I sometimes still feel that way, like "I should be over this by now" becuase I live so far away from my parents and I have me own life. I am a fully grown and responsible adult, who doesn't need to count on her parents anymore. But it still affects me. When I have told people what my parents are, I have definitely gotten the "So what?" look or been told it isn't a big deal.
I've never had my own addiction or dealt with husbands or children with addictions. But I have gone through the experience of being treated like my problems weren't worthwhile. So you aren't alone.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by Easeful
Is that "normal" for us? To be able to deal with one and not the other?
What worked for me was accepting the fact that my parents were people, same as anyone else. They just happened to be the people who paid the rent so I had a place to sleep for 18 years. Their house, their rules...Well now that I have my own house...it is my rules (boundaries). It says we are to leave and cleave.
Separate ourself from their life and live our own life.
I didn't make excuses for their behavior but I did try to seek reasons why they did some of the things they did. In part in was all they knew. In part it was the alcohol and how it can change some people. Once I found some of the reasons, it helped me realize...parent are human.
Cruelty-Free
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Body: South Florida Heart: Yosemite National Park
Posts: 914
I've attended regular Al-Anon meetings for years and continue to find immeasurable help in those rooms. We were fortunate to have an Al-Anon meeting with Adult Child Focus (not ACoA, which is a separate program in and of itself, in which I have no experience) in our area, and when I began attending that meeting in addition to the others, I began to heal on another level entirely.
Yes, I've got alcoholics/addicts (active, recovering, dry... you name it) in my adult life, but my formative years were spent in households saturated with the disease of alcoholism/addiction, and that's where the roots of my difficulties lay. I carried the traumas of those early experiences into all areas of my life and so, if I wanted to have anything resembling a healthy life, healing was necessary.
I refer to those Adult Child Focus meetings as my "sledgehammer" meetings, 'cos that's what they felt like. In those rooms, I had no choice but to get right to the core issues, to dive deep. I also had to learn how to leave what I needed to leave in those rooms, rather than taking all that "stuff" out with me like a heavy bag to drag behind me.
Al-Anon's publication From Survival To Recovery: Growing Up In An Alcoholic Home was the book we used in those meetings, and it's a great source of wisdom, comfort and help.
One last piece, with regard to those who "shrug off" the adult child issues: in all these years, it's rare that I meet someone in Al-Anon recovery who does not come from an alcoholic upbringing... which leads me to wonder why there aren't more Adult Child Focus meetings...
...which in turn reminds me that denial is the foundation of the disease of alcoholism/addiction.
Yes, I've got alcoholics/addicts (active, recovering, dry... you name it) in my adult life, but my formative years were spent in households saturated with the disease of alcoholism/addiction, and that's where the roots of my difficulties lay. I carried the traumas of those early experiences into all areas of my life and so, if I wanted to have anything resembling a healthy life, healing was necessary.
I refer to those Adult Child Focus meetings as my "sledgehammer" meetings, 'cos that's what they felt like. In those rooms, I had no choice but to get right to the core issues, to dive deep. I also had to learn how to leave what I needed to leave in those rooms, rather than taking all that "stuff" out with me like a heavy bag to drag behind me.
Al-Anon's publication From Survival To Recovery: Growing Up In An Alcoholic Home was the book we used in those meetings, and it's a great source of wisdom, comfort and help.
One last piece, with regard to those who "shrug off" the adult child issues: in all these years, it's rare that I meet someone in Al-Anon recovery who does not come from an alcoholic upbringing... which leads me to wonder why there aren't more Adult Child Focus meetings...
...which in turn reminds me that denial is the foundation of the disease of alcoholism/addiction.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
I have found that people in a meeting of recovery are themselves recovering in their own pace. Some are very kind and understanding. Some not. The "nots" get scratched off my phone list. I will listen to their issues and their sharing, and contribute if appropriate, but they are not at a place where they can do the same for me.
As far as reacting to parent, yeah I felt that way too. As others have mentioned, I had a couple _decades_ of brain washing as a child, that stuff is very firmly rooted in my "emotional reflexes". It has gone away for me, I no longer have those reflexes. It took me a lot of "step work" and a lot of practice with authority figures that had some kind of "emotional resemblance" to my parents.
This program does work, and it works amazingly well. I am always grateful for it, and for all the wonderful people who make it happen.
Mike
As far as reacting to parent, yeah I felt that way too. As others have mentioned, I had a couple _decades_ of brain washing as a child, that stuff is very firmly rooted in my "emotional reflexes". It has gone away for me, I no longer have those reflexes. It took me a lot of "step work" and a lot of practice with authority figures that had some kind of "emotional resemblance" to my parents.
This program does work, and it works amazingly well. I am always grateful for it, and for all the wonderful people who make it happen.
Mike
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 1,086
I can't speak to the AlAnon groups, as I've never attended a meeting (did most of my recovery through individual therapy). I can say, as others have already said, that the most formative years of your life are spent with your parents.
Or, put another way, we grow up, literally, believing that our parents are 'normal', that our way of coping is 'functional', that the skewed world we lived in was the way things were supposed to be. In some cases, we grew up believing that everything was always our fault, or that we were failures or that we were completely useless. We were told that from the time we were too young to even understand it.
A person who grows up in a fairly healthy environment, but for whatever reason, gets sucked into the world of alcoholism isn't going to have those same knee jerk reactions as they weren't 'programmed' as we were.
I think people who don't see the Adult Child as having similar (if not worse) problems to someone living with an alcoholic writes it off because "You're not living in the situation right now". What they don't see is that we ARE living in the situation 'right now'...it's with us constantly, no matter who we are or are not living with.
Like Mike, I've gotten past most of my 'emotional reflexes'. But it was hard work, and it will be something I will be forever working on. My parents can no longer reduce me to tears, but that is only because of working hard at learning new tools, new coping mechanisms, and a whole new framework to view my life through.
That being said, tonight my husband, who is one of the most wonderful guys in the world (and doesn't use any substance stronger than caffeine), said a phrase my mother used to say to me repeatedly. He was using the phrase in reference to himself, but I still reacted to it on a gut level. I didn't become upset at my husband, but I did tell him (calmly) that I absolutely abhorred that phrase and told him why (well, demonstrated, actually). He knows that there are trigger phrases and actions for me still, and he is wonderfully understanding. I doubt he'll ever use that phrase around me again.
So here I am, living this wonderful "alcoholic free" life (if you don't count seeing my parents regularly), living in this relatively new paradigm of setting boundaries and maintaining them, and to the outside world, living in an emotionally healthy world. But I still have triggers. And I still have to work with myself daily to reframe those triggers, accept them for what they are, vocalize them when necessary, and move on. I am still "living with an alcoholic", they just aren't in the same house as I am physically. They're in the fibers of who I am. I will continue to work on getting them out, but it may not ever fully happen.
I hope this ramble makes sense. While I don't condone people brushing off your issues, I'm taking a guess at why they may not be CAPABLE of seeing that you are still living with your A, you just carry them around inside you instead of having a physical manifestation to focus on.
Or, put another way, we grow up, literally, believing that our parents are 'normal', that our way of coping is 'functional', that the skewed world we lived in was the way things were supposed to be. In some cases, we grew up believing that everything was always our fault, or that we were failures or that we were completely useless. We were told that from the time we were too young to even understand it.
A person who grows up in a fairly healthy environment, but for whatever reason, gets sucked into the world of alcoholism isn't going to have those same knee jerk reactions as they weren't 'programmed' as we were.
I think people who don't see the Adult Child as having similar (if not worse) problems to someone living with an alcoholic writes it off because "You're not living in the situation right now". What they don't see is that we ARE living in the situation 'right now'...it's with us constantly, no matter who we are or are not living with.
Like Mike, I've gotten past most of my 'emotional reflexes'. But it was hard work, and it will be something I will be forever working on. My parents can no longer reduce me to tears, but that is only because of working hard at learning new tools, new coping mechanisms, and a whole new framework to view my life through.
That being said, tonight my husband, who is one of the most wonderful guys in the world (and doesn't use any substance stronger than caffeine), said a phrase my mother used to say to me repeatedly. He was using the phrase in reference to himself, but I still reacted to it on a gut level. I didn't become upset at my husband, but I did tell him (calmly) that I absolutely abhorred that phrase and told him why (well, demonstrated, actually). He knows that there are trigger phrases and actions for me still, and he is wonderfully understanding. I doubt he'll ever use that phrase around me again.
So here I am, living this wonderful "alcoholic free" life (if you don't count seeing my parents regularly), living in this relatively new paradigm of setting boundaries and maintaining them, and to the outside world, living in an emotionally healthy world. But I still have triggers. And I still have to work with myself daily to reframe those triggers, accept them for what they are, vocalize them when necessary, and move on. I am still "living with an alcoholic", they just aren't in the same house as I am physically. They're in the fibers of who I am. I will continue to work on getting them out, but it may not ever fully happen.
I hope this ramble makes sense. While I don't condone people brushing off your issues, I'm taking a guess at why they may not be CAPABLE of seeing that you are still living with your A, you just carry them around inside you instead of having a physical manifestation to focus on.
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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I think people who don't see the Adult Child as having similar (if not worse) problems to someone living with an alcoholic writes it off because "You're not living in the situation right now". What they don't see is that we ARE living in the situation 'right now'...it's with us constantly, no matter who we are or are not living with.
I am still "living with an alcoholic", they just aren't in the same house as I am physically. They're in the fibers of who I am. I will continue to work on getting them out, but it may not ever fully happen.
i have attended a few ACOA meetings - they are few and far between here and think that they would really benefit me more than Al-Anon. i continue group counseling where we do discuss childhood issues so that helps.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Second star to the right....
Posts: 845
i think that there are differences between those who have and have not been raised in an alcoholic home as their are differences to living with active alcoholism and sobriety. yet in recovery, for me, it is about our similarities that we come together, it is our common and single purpose to deal with the effects of someone else's alcoholism, in a relative or friend. united by the traditions we stand. i seriously take the concepts and traditions to be just as important as the steps in keeping us united against the effects of alcoholism.
there are people i have encountered who want to downplay my experiences but i think that may have to do with THEM feeling unheard, invalidated, unimportant. i too used to think that i had suffered far more than most. for me, IT DOES NOT HELP ANYONE including myself to compare my damage factor and bigger victim status or compare my progress in recovery with others in a competitive manner. this only creates isolation, martyrdom and resentment. I can take what i like and leave the rest, people can think what they think, that doesn't define the truth of who i am and what i have experienced in my life.
it helps me to remember that recovery is a place full of sick people getting healthy, we are human not innately perfect.
as for going back to childhood mode, i have found everyone changes around their parents, its just more dire for children of unhealthy parents. i like to think of visiting my non-recovering family as visiting them on another planet. i have to put on my spacesuit(meetings and prayers for armour) and i have to breathe my own air and accept that they want to live on the moon even if its barren and the beautiful diverse earth is visible to them. and most importantly when i return to earth i need to decompress and shower and expect some motion sickness from the warped gravity. seeing it this way helps me to detach. detachment is the most important thing to learn on when dealing with family and esp. parents.
the importance of anything in our lives is a personal decision noone can really make for us or should they as we are free thinkers ultimately. we dont have acoa meetings in my city but i thank god and count my blessings that there is an alanon and other fellowships so that recovery is available to those who want it.
keep coming back and things keep getting better.
there are people i have encountered who want to downplay my experiences but i think that may have to do with THEM feeling unheard, invalidated, unimportant. i too used to think that i had suffered far more than most. for me, IT DOES NOT HELP ANYONE including myself to compare my damage factor and bigger victim status or compare my progress in recovery with others in a competitive manner. this only creates isolation, martyrdom and resentment. I can take what i like and leave the rest, people can think what they think, that doesn't define the truth of who i am and what i have experienced in my life.
it helps me to remember that recovery is a place full of sick people getting healthy, we are human not innately perfect.
as for going back to childhood mode, i have found everyone changes around their parents, its just more dire for children of unhealthy parents. i like to think of visiting my non-recovering family as visiting them on another planet. i have to put on my spacesuit(meetings and prayers for armour) and i have to breathe my own air and accept that they want to live on the moon even if its barren and the beautiful diverse earth is visible to them. and most importantly when i return to earth i need to decompress and shower and expect some motion sickness from the warped gravity. seeing it this way helps me to detach. detachment is the most important thing to learn on when dealing with family and esp. parents.
the importance of anything in our lives is a personal decision noone can really make for us or should they as we are free thinkers ultimately. we dont have acoa meetings in my city but i thank god and count my blessings that there is an alanon and other fellowships so that recovery is available to those who want it.
keep coming back and things keep getting better.
One Day At A Time
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: West Vancouver, BC
Posts: 405
I went to ACOA for a While in the Beginning
Hi Easeful - In the beginning of my recovery, probably about 10 yrs ago - I went to ACOA..at that time I found it very helpful..What it did for me was show me how growing upin an alcoholic home had affected ME..My focus at that time was on the AWFUL ALCOHOLIC...I found it very educational on learning that I was made "sick" just by being in that environment...
However many of the people there remained in the Problem - Blaming - rather than looking at themselves and getting into the solution...most of them still drank or had other unhealthy coping mechanisms and it wasn't as serious for most of them as I have found Alanon to be.
During that time I realized that I was an alcoholic in the making and finally went to AA where the focus was on Myself and what I could do to change myself and stay sobe..before I got to that point of no return...I was fortunate that the Alcoholic in my family had been in AA for several years and I was familiar with it..
It is only recently that I have begun Alanon again...I never finished working out those childhood issues and now that I have been sober 7 yrs I realize that they are still affecting me and I need to take action there too..I am grateful that the Alanon group I attend has many ACOA people there as well...Try another Alanon Group until you find one that you feel comfortable in....It works for me...
Good for you for taking ACTION !!!
Janni
However many of the people there remained in the Problem - Blaming - rather than looking at themselves and getting into the solution...most of them still drank or had other unhealthy coping mechanisms and it wasn't as serious for most of them as I have found Alanon to be.
During that time I realized that I was an alcoholic in the making and finally went to AA where the focus was on Myself and what I could do to change myself and stay sobe..before I got to that point of no return...I was fortunate that the Alcoholic in my family had been in AA for several years and I was familiar with it..
It is only recently that I have begun Alanon again...I never finished working out those childhood issues and now that I have been sober 7 yrs I realize that they are still affecting me and I need to take action there too..I am grateful that the Alanon group I attend has many ACOA people there as well...Try another Alanon Group until you find one that you feel comfortable in....It works for me...
Good for you for taking ACTION !!!
Janni
In Recovery
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upper Midwest
Posts: 259
[QUOTE=Easeful] I've always been sssooo comfortable with alanon meetings. And by comfortable I mean understood and safe, not that I was necessarily hearing exactly what I wanted to hear.
I've had quite a few instances where individuals at meetings have shrugged off my problems with my parents as being less than their much more serious issues QUOTE]
Hi.
Great question! I can relate to what you are saying. I met a similar reaction when I expanded my recovery from ACOA to AA; one AA'er in particular (via email) kept questioning why it was so important for me to delve into my past, and that the focus should be on "now," and implied that I was spending too much time in the past.
My answer (repeatedly) was that when one's past is based on lies and self-loathing, it's like thousands of sheets of paper thrown in the garbage with all the wrong words written on them. I found value beyond description of digging through that "garbage" and editing every single sheet of paper, to match the truth (which was not always pretty). Without having done that, I don't believe I could ever have healed...a process I'm still working on. I believe I would have unconsciously kept seeking out the same patterns in my life over and over again.
One of my most used forms of denial is minimizing. I told myself the same thing that you've been hearing from others; "It wasn't so bad...others had it worse...I should be happy for how good it was" (I suspect I was repeating messages I'd heard from my parents as a child). After some recovery/program, I realized that the degree of abuse (as though there is some quantifiable scale) didn't matter; the fact that it affected me in a negative, self-damaging way was what mattered.
Maybe I didn't get beaten as much, or sold into prostitution, etc... but the EFFECT was the SAME...self hatred, self-destruction, self-recrimination, dysfunctional living, abusive relationships, and on and on.
One of my ACOA friends reminded me of something that has strongly influenced me. She said, "Don't compare your insides with someone else's outsides." What's going on on your insides is something that no one else should judge...only you know the true details of your own existence.
Take Care,
Kari
I've had quite a few instances where individuals at meetings have shrugged off my problems with my parents as being less than their much more serious issues QUOTE]
Hi.
Great question! I can relate to what you are saying. I met a similar reaction when I expanded my recovery from ACOA to AA; one AA'er in particular (via email) kept questioning why it was so important for me to delve into my past, and that the focus should be on "now," and implied that I was spending too much time in the past.
My answer (repeatedly) was that when one's past is based on lies and self-loathing, it's like thousands of sheets of paper thrown in the garbage with all the wrong words written on them. I found value beyond description of digging through that "garbage" and editing every single sheet of paper, to match the truth (which was not always pretty). Without having done that, I don't believe I could ever have healed...a process I'm still working on. I believe I would have unconsciously kept seeking out the same patterns in my life over and over again.
One of my most used forms of denial is minimizing. I told myself the same thing that you've been hearing from others; "It wasn't so bad...others had it worse...I should be happy for how good it was" (I suspect I was repeating messages I'd heard from my parents as a child). After some recovery/program, I realized that the degree of abuse (as though there is some quantifiable scale) didn't matter; the fact that it affected me in a negative, self-damaging way was what mattered.
Maybe I didn't get beaten as much, or sold into prostitution, etc... but the EFFECT was the SAME...self hatred, self-destruction, self-recrimination, dysfunctional living, abusive relationships, and on and on.
One of my ACOA friends reminded me of something that has strongly influenced me. She said, "Don't compare your insides with someone else's outsides." What's going on on your insides is something that no one else should judge...only you know the true details of your own existence.
Take Care,
Kari
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: where I need to be
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by TheGirlInside
[
Maybe I didn't get beaten as much, or sold into prostitution, etc... but the EFFECT was the SAME...self hatred, self-destruction, self-recrimination, dysfunctional living, abusive relationships, and on and on.
One of my ACOA friends reminded me of something that has strongly influenced me. She said, "Don't compare your insides with someone else's outsides." What's going on on your insides is something that no one else should judge...only you know the true details of your own existence.
Maybe I didn't get beaten as much, or sold into prostitution, etc... but the EFFECT was the SAME...self hatred, self-destruction, self-recrimination, dysfunctional living, abusive relationships, and on and on.
One of my ACOA friends reminded me of something that has strongly influenced me. She said, "Don't compare your insides with someone else's outsides." What's going on on your insides is something that no one else should judge...only you know the true details of your own existence.
The thing that stuck out in my head was that this client told my professor (her counselor) that she was just so tired of wishing she was abused.
I totally understood that. My parents didn't beat me, I always had a roof over my head, clothes to wear, food to eat...I was physically taken care of. But that doesn't mean that their addiction didn't have an effect on me. I don't want to wish I had been abused anymore.
I like the last part of your statement...about judging isides vs others outsides. It really puts thing into perspective.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 928
I totally understood that. My parents didn't beat me, I always had a roof over my head, clothes to wear, food to eat...I was physically taken care of. But that doesn't mean that their addiction didn't have an effect on me. I don't want to wish I had been abused anymore.
Hey there Katie -
wanted to respond to your post..
One thing I have learned in my recovery journey is that my truth is exactly that ..it's MINE..
Just because my unrecovered ACOA mother didn't think my childhood was "that bad" does it mean that I agree with her..
My truth is it was "that bad"...
There are different types of abuse..Having an emotional unavailable parent or not getting the love that we need as a child..is a form of abuse.
just my $0.02
Hey there Katie -
wanted to respond to your post..
One thing I have learned in my recovery journey is that my truth is exactly that ..it's MINE..
Just because my unrecovered ACOA mother didn't think my childhood was "that bad" does it mean that I agree with her..
My truth is it was "that bad"...
There are different types of abuse..Having an emotional unavailable parent or not getting the love that we need as a child..is a form of abuse.
just my $0.02
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Excellent posts everybody, this is a wonderful thread.
What I have learned is very similar. The abuse is what is done to my _outsides_. My _insides_ is where I hurt. Everybody in recovery has a different story, but we all share the same pain. Pain cannot be measured, and so it cannot be compared. My pain is the same as anybody else's, regardless of our different histories. I may not be able to understand the details of their history, or the obstacles they face in life, but if I am honest and humble in my own recovery I will understand their pain.
That's what makes recovery possible, people reaching out and appreciating each other's _insides_, instead of their outsides.
Mike
What I have learned is very similar. The abuse is what is done to my _outsides_. My _insides_ is where I hurt. Everybody in recovery has a different story, but we all share the same pain. Pain cannot be measured, and so it cannot be compared. My pain is the same as anybody else's, regardless of our different histories. I may not be able to understand the details of their history, or the obstacles they face in life, but if I am honest and humble in my own recovery I will understand their pain.
That's what makes recovery possible, people reaching out and appreciating each other's _insides_, instead of their outsides.
Mike
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 1,086
Pain cannot be measured, and so it cannot be compared.
Seriously, I think our culture has so ingrained in us this competitive edge that many people attempting or in the process of recovery simply can't let go of that need to be 'better' at something than someone else.
So, in that desire to out-compete others, they have a driving NEED to prove that their pain is worse than anyone elses. Also, many ACoAs define themselves by their traumas - so to tell them that their trauma isn't any worse than anyone else's trauma is literally removing their identity.
I know someone whose identity is completely tied into the victim role. No matter what you do for this person, it will get spun into a negative. Buy them a gift, it will be all wrong or you will be trying to make them into something they're not, or you will be trying to control them by giving them a gift. Give them money outright and you will be telling them they're a failure. This person simply can not operate in life unless in the role of victim. There is nothing I can do about that person, so I don't try anymore. I used to try, but somewhere in my own recovery, I realized it was that person's issue, not mine, and it was not mine to control or cure or fix or even deal with. Detachment followed quickly after that. The person, about a month after I had pretty much detached, then told me that they wouldn't be my friend anymore. Darn.
*shrug*
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Originally Posted by GingerM
... Nuh-uhhh, my pain is worse than your pain!
Originally Posted by GingerM
... they have a driving NEED to prove that their pain is worse than anyone elses. ...
I'm grateful the "games" I was involved in prior to recovery were tame and easy to shake off. I never got sucked into those "one up-manship" games.
You're right in that we can't "fix" other people's issues. I used to try too, but I've learned that if I truly want to help I can do it best as an example.
Mike
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 1,086
Very interesting analogy Mike. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what the 'payoff' is for those playing the 'game' (especially for those 'losing' the 'game'). It might shed a lot of light on a few things I'm still struggling with.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Heya Ginger,
Check out this book
Games People Play: The basic handbook of transactional analysis. (Paperback)
by Eric Md Berne ISBN: 0345410033
If you google "transactional analysis" you'll find zillions of websites, will keep you busy for ever
The fundamental premise is that in a "game" _all_ the participants are getting some kind of benefit. The classic example is the alcholic "elephant in the living room". In this game an alkie and a codie invest a huge amount of effort into pretending that the alkie's behavior is "normal" and not causing any harm to anybody. It is hugely obvious to everybody else that there is a problem so huge it would be like having an elephant in the living room.
The alkie get the obvious benefit of being able to drink without consequences. The codie is responsible for "both" the alkie and the codie, "cleaning up" all the damage caused by the alkie.
The codie gets a non-obvious benefit. In my case, I was raised in a brutally abusive alcoholic family, I swore to myself as a child that I would never grow up to be like my parents. So I grew up believing that as long as I had a happy marriage I was succesful in being a responsible, respectable adult. If I admited to myself that my wife was having affairs with other married men, that she had developed an addiction to pain pills, I would loose that "happy marriage". The "happy marriage" had become an essential part of my self-image without which I had not standard with which to gauge my worth as a man.
By tolerating and covering up for my wife's behavior I was protecting _my_ self image. Without a marriage to define me I had nothing. The pain of her addiction was less than the pain of believing that I had become like my biological parents. Until I figured it all out thru al-anon.
The "victim" game has similar payoffs for both players. The "victim" uses their "injury" as a justification for not taking steps to better themselves or their condition. Life is hard, and getting ahead takes work, if you have some valid excuse to not work hard on yourself then you don't have to feel guilty, or responsible, for what becomes of you. You also can "accidentaly" wind up with a small cadre of codies to give you food, money, jobs, housing, etc.
The other player in the "victim" game is the rescuer. Rescuer can get a variety of different payoffs from rescuing a victim, but they all come down to the perceived superiority of the rescuer over the victim. Some people have very low self esteem, but if they surround themselves with people with even _lower_ self esteem then they don't feel so bad. These are the "professional rescuers" who open up a shelter for the homeless in their garage.
Another type of rescuer with low self-esteem is looking for gratitude from the victim as a way of bolstering that self-esteem.
There's also the "rescuer of slaves" who _marries_ the victim in order to have a compliant spouse to look after the household.
Another one is the "Arrogant professor" who goes around instructing victims on how to solve their problems with an arrogant, intellectual attitude. The professor uses their intelligence to demonstrate to him/her self how much smarter they are than the victim, that bolsters their self esteem. Their tone is one of "If you were as smart as I am you would understand what I'm telling you and you would agree with me".
The "guilty rescuer" is one who feels guilty over all kinds of things. When a victim refuses the kindness of this rescuer the guilt overboils, the rescuer's low self esteem feels rejected and so trys again and again. Each time the rescuer is rejected they feel greater guilt, and get sucked into a ever deepening cycle.
In all the "victim" type games the rescuer is attempting to compensate for low self esteem. Each rescuer has some kind of personal "belief structure" to that self esteem, such as my believing that a "happy marriage" was an indicator of my worth as a husband. It is those incorrect "connections" in a belief structure that lead a rescuer to get entangled in a dysfunctional "game". If you can lay out the belief structure, and compare it to a healthy structure then the causes of the "game" become clear.
Am I making sense?
Mike
Check out this book
Games People Play: The basic handbook of transactional analysis. (Paperback)
by Eric Md Berne ISBN: 0345410033
If you google "transactional analysis" you'll find zillions of websites, will keep you busy for ever
The fundamental premise is that in a "game" _all_ the participants are getting some kind of benefit. The classic example is the alcholic "elephant in the living room". In this game an alkie and a codie invest a huge amount of effort into pretending that the alkie's behavior is "normal" and not causing any harm to anybody. It is hugely obvious to everybody else that there is a problem so huge it would be like having an elephant in the living room.
The alkie get the obvious benefit of being able to drink without consequences. The codie is responsible for "both" the alkie and the codie, "cleaning up" all the damage caused by the alkie.
The codie gets a non-obvious benefit. In my case, I was raised in a brutally abusive alcoholic family, I swore to myself as a child that I would never grow up to be like my parents. So I grew up believing that as long as I had a happy marriage I was succesful in being a responsible, respectable adult. If I admited to myself that my wife was having affairs with other married men, that she had developed an addiction to pain pills, I would loose that "happy marriage". The "happy marriage" had become an essential part of my self-image without which I had not standard with which to gauge my worth as a man.
By tolerating and covering up for my wife's behavior I was protecting _my_ self image. Without a marriage to define me I had nothing. The pain of her addiction was less than the pain of believing that I had become like my biological parents. Until I figured it all out thru al-anon.
The "victim" game has similar payoffs for both players. The "victim" uses their "injury" as a justification for not taking steps to better themselves or their condition. Life is hard, and getting ahead takes work, if you have some valid excuse to not work hard on yourself then you don't have to feel guilty, or responsible, for what becomes of you. You also can "accidentaly" wind up with a small cadre of codies to give you food, money, jobs, housing, etc.
The other player in the "victim" game is the rescuer. Rescuer can get a variety of different payoffs from rescuing a victim, but they all come down to the perceived superiority of the rescuer over the victim. Some people have very low self esteem, but if they surround themselves with people with even _lower_ self esteem then they don't feel so bad. These are the "professional rescuers" who open up a shelter for the homeless in their garage.
Another type of rescuer with low self-esteem is looking for gratitude from the victim as a way of bolstering that self-esteem.
There's also the "rescuer of slaves" who _marries_ the victim in order to have a compliant spouse to look after the household.
Another one is the "Arrogant professor" who goes around instructing victims on how to solve their problems with an arrogant, intellectual attitude. The professor uses their intelligence to demonstrate to him/her self how much smarter they are than the victim, that bolsters their self esteem. Their tone is one of "If you were as smart as I am you would understand what I'm telling you and you would agree with me".
The "guilty rescuer" is one who feels guilty over all kinds of things. When a victim refuses the kindness of this rescuer the guilt overboils, the rescuer's low self esteem feels rejected and so trys again and again. Each time the rescuer is rejected they feel greater guilt, and get sucked into a ever deepening cycle.
In all the "victim" type games the rescuer is attempting to compensate for low self esteem. Each rescuer has some kind of personal "belief structure" to that self esteem, such as my believing that a "happy marriage" was an indicator of my worth as a husband. It is those incorrect "connections" in a belief structure that lead a rescuer to get entangled in a dysfunctional "game". If you can lay out the belief structure, and compare it to a healthy structure then the causes of the "game" become clear.
Am I making sense?
Mike
In Recovery
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upper Midwest
Posts: 259
Mike, that's great!
You remind me of a friend in AA, in that he has a way of saying what I'm trying to say, but he says it much more effectively and succinctly.
Yeah, I recognize myself in the role of "victim" and my soon-to-be exH as the "rescuer," making sure that I was kept in that victim role. Once I started recovery, and no longer wanted to play the game, he became abusive and evil.
Talk about people not wanting to give up their payoffs (not to blame...)
THanks!
Kari
You remind me of a friend in AA, in that he has a way of saying what I'm trying to say, but he says it much more effectively and succinctly.
Yeah, I recognize myself in the role of "victim" and my soon-to-be exH as the "rescuer," making sure that I was kept in that victim role. Once I started recovery, and no longer wanted to play the game, he became abusive and evil.
Talk about people not wanting to give up their payoffs (not to blame...)
THanks!
Kari
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