Don S

Third or fourth visit since late 2004, so I don't think so.

best

Troller or not...
A lot of great info has been posted for others to read.

Walk

I think the troller interpretation is accurtate. Why would someone have to refer to aspects of AA as "crap" when they are pretending to look for alternatives. Also, if you drink, widespread, how can you be beholden to allah or muhamed or whoever it is you are supposed to be worshiping? Doesn't your "book" explicitly prohibit drinking? Doesn't that make you an "infidel"?

slacker

I suggest we give the individual the benefit of the doubt.

The christian bible tells us drunkeness is a sin, and I think we have all comitted that one. Nobody is perfect, we have all engaged in behaviors that we know were wrong, whether it was our religion or otherwise that made us know it was wrong.

The "crap" label may be due to ignorance, or perhaps the individual is less articulate about expressing his/her concerns and criticisms for certain aspects of the program.

c'est la vie

So WSP, how are you doing today?

paulmh

Thanks for this thread, WSP. If you are a troll, seems like you got a stimulating exchange of views going, rather than getting anyone to blow their stack.

I was no less hostile to AA before I drank myself into a state of willingness. I like the idea however, quoted in the Orange Papers, that once a compulsively self-destructive individual takes themselves to that crisis point, and has to make a decision about whether they want to change or die, they are incredibly amenable to whatever programme they encounter, and are more likely to make it work for themselves becuase of the point they have reached, rather than any qualities of the programme itself. I'm immensely grateful that AA was the programme that I encountered when I reached my last crisis, the one I hope will prove to be my final one in drink. I no longer believe that it matters what I believe. It only matters whether I am able to take appropriate responsibility for myself, one day at a time. Something I never did before. The wisdom of the first 100 is utterly apparent to me now, because I was forced by defeat to become open to it - it's not through anything inherent in their words, but rather in the change that took place in me prior to reading them! But it's only recently that I have come to appreciate the wisdom of the phrase "alcoholics of our type". Those of us who get sober in AA are a self-selecting sample, the ones for whom it "works because we work it". Many others will never become "alcoholics of our type", because they'll run out of life, or other aspects of their character will keep them from the run past the last house on the street. Of course, they could get sober with the fellowship. Just as, conceivably, we could have stopped drinking before we became alcoholics. But we are the lucky ones, simply because we were so unlucky before. I drank myself into a state of reasonableness. For which I am grateful.

Doodlebug

Troll or not.... I've come away with some good information from this thread, and I want to thank all of you. I am not "anti AA" I don't know enough about it. I think I am just afraid of it... and I don't know why. But this thread has given me lots to think about and I want to thank you all for that.

As for the troller... if he is a troller, his intent backfired. Everyone here certainly conducted themselves perfectly... No flare-ups or fighting. I am a member of other message boards and I know the dirtywork trollers can accomplish. It didn't happen here. Kudos for all!!!

CarolD

Flames are not allowed. No name calling.

That includes personal or program bashing.

Thanks..

Baritone

It's understandable that people have preconceptions of what an AA meeting is like - I had a lot of those same preconceptions myself. Even if you don't think you would fit in AA, i'd recommend going to an open meeting just to listen - at least then you'd have a better idea of what AA is about and be better able to decide if you want it or not. (Most AA meetings these days are non-smoking.) I've been sober for 5 years and still think a lot of what i hear and read in AA is indeed crap, but i go to AA for what works for me and try to ignore the rest.

- Jim

El Gato

that I can agree with.

debsjsu

One of the misconceptions that I have heard repeatedly is that AA has rules that you have to do this or that.. This is absolutely not true... AA has suggestions that have been followed by others who have gotten sober and stayed sober.. It is how they did it and how they continue to do it. Not only do most of them have continued sobriety, they also have a way of life that is filled with a peace and serenity that they never knew they could have.. You hear countless stories of families reunited and you see people restored to health and sanity with your own eyes.. You actually get to witness miracles happening when you see the guy come into a meeting for the first time, beat down, with nothing left but the shirt on his back. Then a year later he has his life back, job, family, and is sober and chairing meetings. He no longer looks like the same man who walked into that first meeting.. It can't get no better than that.... That helps me remember where I came from and where I DO NOT want to go back to... Other programs may have the same experience I do not know b/c I am not familure with other programs. I got sober in AA b/c it was the only program in my area. I was living in my car (which had no gass, and I had no food) AA came to me. I did not go to them. The people came and pulled me out of my car and took me to a meeting. I was nasty they didn't care, they loved me till I could love myself. They took me to their homes and fed me and let me shower. Only b/c they wanted to see me get sober. They didn't want anything from me. So yes I am grateful for AA. It saved my life and gave my family their mother back... This is not to say that other programs do not do the same. I can only speak for AA b/c that is all I know. I however WILL NOT condem, demean, condesend or otherwise put down another program that has been successful in helping people to get sober. Becouse I love people and want everybody to get sober whatever way is necessary for them. I know I talk too much ... Sorry... Love to all Debs

kali ma

Very well put.

Stobert

Me too, but I don't drink it, because it'll kill me if I do. Maybe not today, probably not tomorrow, but someday it will. If I don't drink it, I'll still die someday, but it won't be from drinking scotch (or any other alcohol).

jmhs002

ditto to what Music said.
JMHS

AndrewBeen

I had problem with Step 1 wording too. I think it's unfortunate. If we were Powerless, then we would not have the Power to join AA. We would not even have the Power to do the steps. Wording of Step 1 creates a logical contradiction from the very beginning. A Gordian Knot that renders the other steps moot. It is a problem in wording.

But the gist is correct: we alcoholics when exposed to alcohol appear unable to control our drinking and maintain sanity in our lives. Powerless in that sense.

Look for what is valuable in the program. There is a lot of wisdom there from others that have walked this road.

BSPGirl

I had a serious problem with step #2. I was willing to admit I was powerless cuz in fact I kinda was back then but then letting some external higher 'thing' taking the control over, that was a big no for me. And yes I did give 12 steps a honest try. Did almost 90 in 90. It just didn't click. I rather empower myself. It was a relief to realize I really COULD gain back control.

My famous 2 cents.

c'est la vie

I know it's nearly impossible to make a change to something like the 12 steps of AA, but since EVERYONE seems to add a few words to clarify the first step then maybe a change is necessary. Of course we have the power to keep alcohol out of our system, to get help if needed, to rebuild our broken lives.

If this is the stumbling block keeping unknown thousands from getting help through AA, then for goodness sakes I hope someone wakes up and makes the change to step 1.

How about "We are powerless when under the influence of alcohol".

miss communicat

my 2 cents worth on the rewording of step #1:

I absolutely reject the concept of being powerless over alcohol. I walk past wine shops, bars, people drinking, without a thought or even teeny little pull in their direction all the time.

BUT

(and this is the clincher)

If I drink alcohol, I am then powerless over it. So, for me, I interpret the 1st step to be that I am "powerless over alcohol once it is in my system". AND, I use the 12 steps to keep it, and other toxic substances (including attitutdes and behaviours) out of my system.

And, I accept the help of a higher power and other "fellows" to do so. These are 2 gifts that AA offers me. It does not force me to belief what is untrue for me.

debsjsu

Stobert I didn't worry about alcohol killing me b/c when I was drinking in those last days I wished something would kill me. I worried more about having to live in the misery I was living in... Maybe you didn't progress to that stage yet... AndrewBeen Powerlessness in the first step dosn't mean what you are interperting it to mean... I could still wipe my own butt and drive my car. I could still go to a meeting if I chose to. I wasnt powerless over freewill. If you will read the Doctors Opinion it tells us what alcoholism is, Bills Story tells us what the symptoms are, and More About Alcoholism tells us what powerlessness is, I am not trying to push MY recovery on you or anyone else. Just offering information if you want to investagate and learn more about what you are talking about... These chapters can be found in the BIG BOOK ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS. They are not very long and you could read them all in about an hour or so.. QUOTE: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." HERBERT SPENCER What would it hurt to read it, if you don't agree at least then you can say that you read it and don't agree... Love to you Debs

Don S

On a quick reading, I had trouble with steps 1,2,3,6,7,11, and 12. 4 didn't seem like a bad idea. I was dubious about 9.
So I just went on down the road and found some ideas that were more in keeping with my world view.
There's no need to rewrite Step 1, or any of them, since there are alternative approaches. It just seems to me that if someone is clearly having trouble adapting to AA, or adapting AA to their world view, they should be encouraged to look into the alternatives. Many people have told me that AA can still be very useful for the fellowship and peer support.

I'm guessing Andrew has read the Big Book....