ok friends, heres the deal...
Don't get undies in a bunch
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Originally Posted by leviathon
In contrast, there is my older brother. He is an aethiest. He lives a humble, honest and moral life. He does no harm to others and puts his family and community first. Despite his lack of belief in a "god" when he dies, do you think he will be denied admission to "heaven", assuming there is one, because he did not recite scripture and my grandfather would? Again, I think not.
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somwhere over the rainbow
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Originally Posted by Peter
"Faith" is the basic unchangable ingredient of any religion. Everything else is just paint and window dressings.
Peter, in terms of the "truth" that led you to a world of hurt, I don't know about your truth, but for me it was only when I strayed from the "truth" of my beliefs, the very foundation of my spirituality, that I fell into addiction. When I lost the focus on what was really important to me and was instead tempted by power and money, that is where and when that I fell into addiction. My "truth" has never been such that I was led to addiction, rather it was my loss of focus on my "truth" that I fell into addiction. It was my disregard for my own spirituality and my connection with my higher power that caused me to fall into my addiction.
My fundamental "truth", or as I prefer to call it my spirituality, although neglected, remained the same and is once again there for me now that I have cleansed myself of the imbalance caused by my pursuit of my selfish goals and desires. The pursuit of self interest at the expense of all else was after all, IMO the thing that took me away from my spirituality. IMO I fell because I lost contact with my spirituality and I lost sight of my higher power because of my pursuit of self interest and self aggrandizement over everything else. It was only in those moments of weakness created by selfishness that I succumbed to addiction.
Levi
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It is interesting, when I strayed from my truth, I got sober. My truth was drinking and doing whatever it took in keeping the drinks flowing. When I was finally ready for change and was willing, I went looking outside of my comfort zone. I was ready to reach out for help, and in doing so I discovered the real truth. Not my hazy interpretation of the truth. Very insightful posts. Thanks...
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That is the wonderful thing about these forums, we all travelled a different path to reach sobriety. For me it was the realization that it was my deviation from my spirituality and my higher power that led me to fall that helped me to regain my life and to return to sanity.
Levi.
Levi.
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Best, the problem with your assessment is that you believe in a "God" where I don't. I have no "god" to ask it of.
From my perspective, the truth lies within and it is my connection to my higher power, the connection to the life force that runs through all living things and provides all that is needed, that allows me to answer that question for myself, as I do not believe in an all knowing or all powerful "God".
I am not saying that I am right, I am just saying how your answer does not work for me.
I firmly believe in AA's view that there is no right "God" or "Higher Power" that you have to find in order to attain sobriety; rather, it is your understanding of a "higher power" as you are able to understand it and your connection with that higher power that is important. For me, that is as I've described above. It works for me. It is different for each one of us. I trust that each will find his/her higher power and establish his/her beliefs in that higher power and govern themselves accordingly.
Levi.
From my perspective, the truth lies within and it is my connection to my higher power, the connection to the life force that runs through all living things and provides all that is needed, that allows me to answer that question for myself, as I do not believe in an all knowing or all powerful "God".
I am not saying that I am right, I am just saying how your answer does not work for me.
I firmly believe in AA's view that there is no right "God" or "Higher Power" that you have to find in order to attain sobriety; rather, it is your understanding of a "higher power" as you are able to understand it and your connection with that higher power that is important. For me, that is as I've described above. It works for me. It is different for each one of us. I trust that each will find his/her higher power and establish his/her beliefs in that higher power and govern themselves accordingly.
Levi.
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
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My alcoholism led me into belief of my HP. Every since I surrendered to the fact I was powerless over alcohol, my life has been a continuous chain of amazing events. There in no denying that I am clearly being led in the right direction. There is a feeling of comfort and security in knowing that I am not alone and each day I can ask for guidance and strength.
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Muze, actually I found my "higher power" the same way. When I was in my early twenties I was using all kinds of things. Then an event happened (an impaired) that caused me to stop and get off the insanity wagon that I was on.
I firmly believe that everything happens for a reason as this impaired happened for a reason. I needed a wake up call and I wasn't listening to the ones that previously presented themselves... i.e. being fired from a job, relationship difficulties, increasing drug and alcohol use. IMO, it is our ability to understand that reason that allows us to change and grow. I do not believe in chance miracles or chance occurrences. Everything, IMO, happens for a reason. The question for me is whether or not I am able to comprehend it. Another truth that I have learned is that if I am not open to the lesson when it first presents itself, it will continue to present itself in different forms and I will continue to struggle in turmoil until I am able to learn what I need to learn from it. (This is consistent with Hindu teachings by the way)
It was in this period that I found my "higher power" and established my belief system. When I was in touch with that spiritual place and my higher power, I remained sober for 10 yrs. It was when I lost contact with that spirituality and my higher power that I floundered and returned to alcoholism.
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this subject.
Levi
I firmly believe that everything happens for a reason as this impaired happened for a reason. I needed a wake up call and I wasn't listening to the ones that previously presented themselves... i.e. being fired from a job, relationship difficulties, increasing drug and alcohol use. IMO, it is our ability to understand that reason that allows us to change and grow. I do not believe in chance miracles or chance occurrences. Everything, IMO, happens for a reason. The question for me is whether or not I am able to comprehend it. Another truth that I have learned is that if I am not open to the lesson when it first presents itself, it will continue to present itself in different forms and I will continue to struggle in turmoil until I am able to learn what I need to learn from it. (This is consistent with Hindu teachings by the way)
It was in this period that I found my "higher power" and established my belief system. When I was in touch with that spiritual place and my higher power, I remained sober for 10 yrs. It was when I lost contact with that spirituality and my higher power that I floundered and returned to alcoholism.
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this subject.
Levi
alcohol-kicked-my butt
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: oregon
Posts: 191
levi
i would very much like to believe as you --i mean why would God need someone to die on the cross for us when he created us--it is sort of a monster God concept--sort of like we are puppets on a string in some cosmic game--i mean if you really look at it--but everything that is happening in this world is amazingly happening as the bible sorta says the end would be like--immorality run rampant, certain historical things--so if i was to choose my own higher power i would feel free to be myself and not be afraid but if christianity is it --i go to hell--this is ingrained--do you see why it is so important i get some sort of resolution, but i think sadly, it is not possible so what does someone do--risk eternal life to be content here or stick with jesus?
Laura
i would very much like to believe as you --i mean why would God need someone to die on the cross for us when he created us--it is sort of a monster God concept--sort of like we are puppets on a string in some cosmic game--i mean if you really look at it--but everything that is happening in this world is amazingly happening as the bible sorta says the end would be like--immorality run rampant, certain historical things--so if i was to choose my own higher power i would feel free to be myself and not be afraid but if christianity is it --i go to hell--this is ingrained--do you see why it is so important i get some sort of resolution, but i think sadly, it is not possible so what does someone do--risk eternal life to be content here or stick with jesus?
Laura
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I believe the ultimate purpose to all religion is to better explain the world in which we live and to find inner peace.
Whichever belief provides you with these two elements is the right religion for you.
Whichever belief provides you with these two elements is the right religion for you.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Livonia, MI
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I do believe in God. But,...by the same token, I dont think that worrying, wondering, and trying to answer questions that only death itself can answer is any way to spend the precious time we DO have on this Earth. I fear that by the time its almost over,...the people who do this will have regretted that they didnt spend more time living, and enjoying life.
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Fortunately for me, I am free thinking enough and self assured enough that I can live with the choices I have made with respect to my higher power and to let the pieces fall where they may. Not everyone is able to do that and not everyone wants to do that. Again, the ultimate choice is for each person to decide what is right for him or her.
I am merely expressing my opinion on my belief system. Whether I am right or wrong, as Earlybird has said, is an answer that will only come after I die. I am not going to waste the precious time that I have here worrying about that. I am simply going to live my life as best I can and be true to my beliefs and my moral view. I wish you all the same.
As for you Rose Petals, despite what you say, you are free to choose. The issue you are struggling with is what if I am wrong in what I choose. From your perspective you are caught by the fact that if the bible is correct, if you do what Jesus says, then x will happen, and if you don't then Y will happen. What happens if you do everything the bible and Jedsus asks of you and then you die only to learn that Jesus never existed and that in fact Muhammad had it right? Are you then condemned to whatever version of hell or damnation that exists in the muslim religion?
The issue that arises for me in that scenario is what if the bible is wrong? What if the Kuran is wrong? What if it was all a big historical novel added to by each successive generation and shaped by some overall guiding group to ensure their own power? After all a study of how the various religions became organized reveals that the religious heirarchies, in Christindom in particular, were formed for two purposes in medieval times. The first one was a way to control the masses without needing actual physical force. A belief system enforced by "god" is much more effective than the mere threat of a tyrant monarch holding swords over everyone's heads. No one can support the size of army that type of tyranny requires... look at Stalinist Russia as an example. According to history, what the Lords of the Realm did was to consolidate their hold by simply setting up priests to enforce the moral code and that kept the population in general compliane. The second purpose of the "church" in medieval europe was that it gave the lesser sons in noble families an occupation, much like the "professions" occupied by doctors and lawyers provided. After all, only the first son could inherit the estate and the title. To do otherwise jeopardized the totality of the estate and fragmented the consolidated power of the family earned in each generation.
On an aside, I am also not secure enough or trusting enough of my fellow man to believe that over 1000's of years the bible, if it ever was the word of god, continues to be the "word of god" today. I am sure that there is a higher power contained within its pages as understood by the numerous people that have contributed to it. I, however, am not trusting enough to believe that someone in history has not inserted their own agenda or purpose in its pages so as to further their own ends, ie. to create: a global catholic church, or a global muslim religion, or a global JW religion, etc..
All I can speak from is my ES&H. I do know that what I have learned I learned as a result of my studies in university. There I did a degree in history with a minor in political science. What I did learn as a constant truth is that "history is written by the victors, not the losers". It is the writings of the conquerers that remains after the cities burn and the ruins are rebuilt and the writings of the losers either are subsumed within the victorious culture or are forced underground to whither and die.
That said, what if the Muslims that were conquered by the Christians in the Spanish Crusades actually had the true word of god and it was suppressed by the Christians? What if the pagan relions of pre christian Europe had the true word of god but they were over run by the christians and/or the muslims? What if the kurds in northern Iraq that have been dominated by the souther Iraqis have the true word of god but it has been diminished to the wastelands of northern Iraq because of the oppression and tyranny of Sadam Hussein? What if, what if, what if... the what ifs go on forever. Are we then all condemned if we do not subscribe to the "correct" religion? IF that is the case then 3/4 of humanity is destined to die and have no after life as only one of these "religious faiths" can be right in that scenario.
From my perspective, the bottom line is that you have to choose for yourself. It is your beliefs that are important to you in this life. You can live this life frantically worrying about your choice, as Early Bird has said, you will not know the "ultimate" answer until after you leave this plain of existence.
I really appreciate this thread as I have really had the chance to fully express my belief system to myself. And I am more certain than ever in my belief system. If I am ultimately proven wrong and I am condemned to 'hell' or whatever version of damnation that a diety comes up with as a result of my beliefs then I am ok with that too. I believe, as the American colonists did when they revolted from the British over lords, that I have the freedom to choose and that as long as I do not harm others and I live my life productively and fruitfully then if a deity is so whimsical as to punish me for my "disbelief" in it rather than to welcome me for how I have lived, then it is not a deity that I would want to live alongside with for eternity in any event. Rather, as the colonists did, I would prefer to suffer for my beliefs and know that I chose freely and believed in what I am and how I lived.
Peace, Levi
I am merely expressing my opinion on my belief system. Whether I am right or wrong, as Earlybird has said, is an answer that will only come after I die. I am not going to waste the precious time that I have here worrying about that. I am simply going to live my life as best I can and be true to my beliefs and my moral view. I wish you all the same.
As for you Rose Petals, despite what you say, you are free to choose. The issue you are struggling with is what if I am wrong in what I choose. From your perspective you are caught by the fact that if the bible is correct, if you do what Jesus says, then x will happen, and if you don't then Y will happen. What happens if you do everything the bible and Jedsus asks of you and then you die only to learn that Jesus never existed and that in fact Muhammad had it right? Are you then condemned to whatever version of hell or damnation that exists in the muslim religion?
The issue that arises for me in that scenario is what if the bible is wrong? What if the Kuran is wrong? What if it was all a big historical novel added to by each successive generation and shaped by some overall guiding group to ensure their own power? After all a study of how the various religions became organized reveals that the religious heirarchies, in Christindom in particular, were formed for two purposes in medieval times. The first one was a way to control the masses without needing actual physical force. A belief system enforced by "god" is much more effective than the mere threat of a tyrant monarch holding swords over everyone's heads. No one can support the size of army that type of tyranny requires... look at Stalinist Russia as an example. According to history, what the Lords of the Realm did was to consolidate their hold by simply setting up priests to enforce the moral code and that kept the population in general compliane. The second purpose of the "church" in medieval europe was that it gave the lesser sons in noble families an occupation, much like the "professions" occupied by doctors and lawyers provided. After all, only the first son could inherit the estate and the title. To do otherwise jeopardized the totality of the estate and fragmented the consolidated power of the family earned in each generation.
On an aside, I am also not secure enough or trusting enough of my fellow man to believe that over 1000's of years the bible, if it ever was the word of god, continues to be the "word of god" today. I am sure that there is a higher power contained within its pages as understood by the numerous people that have contributed to it. I, however, am not trusting enough to believe that someone in history has not inserted their own agenda or purpose in its pages so as to further their own ends, ie. to create: a global catholic church, or a global muslim religion, or a global JW religion, etc..
All I can speak from is my ES&H. I do know that what I have learned I learned as a result of my studies in university. There I did a degree in history with a minor in political science. What I did learn as a constant truth is that "history is written by the victors, not the losers". It is the writings of the conquerers that remains after the cities burn and the ruins are rebuilt and the writings of the losers either are subsumed within the victorious culture or are forced underground to whither and die.
That said, what if the Muslims that were conquered by the Christians in the Spanish Crusades actually had the true word of god and it was suppressed by the Christians? What if the pagan relions of pre christian Europe had the true word of god but they were over run by the christians and/or the muslims? What if the kurds in northern Iraq that have been dominated by the souther Iraqis have the true word of god but it has been diminished to the wastelands of northern Iraq because of the oppression and tyranny of Sadam Hussein? What if, what if, what if... the what ifs go on forever. Are we then all condemned if we do not subscribe to the "correct" religion? IF that is the case then 3/4 of humanity is destined to die and have no after life as only one of these "religious faiths" can be right in that scenario.
From my perspective, the bottom line is that you have to choose for yourself. It is your beliefs that are important to you in this life. You can live this life frantically worrying about your choice, as Early Bird has said, you will not know the "ultimate" answer until after you leave this plain of existence.
I really appreciate this thread as I have really had the chance to fully express my belief system to myself. And I am more certain than ever in my belief system. If I am ultimately proven wrong and I am condemned to 'hell' or whatever version of damnation that a diety comes up with as a result of my beliefs then I am ok with that too. I believe, as the American colonists did when they revolted from the British over lords, that I have the freedom to choose and that as long as I do not harm others and I live my life productively and fruitfully then if a deity is so whimsical as to punish me for my "disbelief" in it rather than to welcome me for how I have lived, then it is not a deity that I would want to live alongside with for eternity in any event. Rather, as the colonists did, I would prefer to suffer for my beliefs and know that I chose freely and believed in what I am and how I lived.
Peace, Levi
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Posts: 110
Our individual searches for the truth about life stem from experience, good and bad. I have had some experiences in my life that led me to believe in the existence of God beyond all doubt. I have tried to think pragmatically about God and come up with many more questions than answers. So what I started to was "let go, let God" (much easier to do without alcohol btw). When I started to accept certain truths on blind faith I felt much more at peace with what I believe. Why? Well to think of myself, or any other human being, as "god" would be disappointing to me. Because as wonderful as people can be, we are all born with our human failings and weaknesses. I know *I* would certainly not be worthy of such a title. But it's more than just a name. There is a higher power and within it is where all of the secrets of the universe are kept. There are so many things that human beings just do not know for sure, as far as "how did we come to be?" and "what happens when we die"? I also believe in the presence of "good" and "evil". Drinking and drug abuse opens up a gateway for those bad thoughts and impulses to enter our lives by causing us to lose our self control.
I believe we will all know the answers to those questions someday. I will stop pontificating but I hope I have added a little bit of insight or at least something for you to think about.
GJ
I believe we will all know the answers to those questions someday. I will stop pontificating but I hope I have added a little bit of insight or at least something for you to think about.
GJ
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somwhere over the rainbow
Posts: 1,175
Absolutely your insights are great and appreciated. It is funny because I agree with most everything you said, the exception being that I do not believe in "one" all knowing all powerful "god". Just don't buy it... c'est la vie, to each their own!
Levi
Levi
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Originally Posted by Peter
I believe the ultimate purpose to all religion is to better explain the world in which we live and to find inner peace.
Whichever belief provides you with these two elements is the right religion for you.
Whichever belief provides you with these two elements is the right religion for you.
Confusion then wisdom!
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Oh rose - the dreaded 'hell' question.
I think if you have a good heart, and good follows from that heart, even if you are atheist, then there should be no reason to be sent to hell.
This is a tight theological question??? I have no idea.
I try good. I think thats all that I can do.
Hope that helps!!!
I think if you have a good heart, and good follows from that heart, even if you are atheist, then there should be no reason to be sent to hell.
This is a tight theological question??? I have no idea.
I try good. I think thats all that I can do.
Hope that helps!!!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
Remember about "a Power GREATER THAN OURSELVES"...........
For what it is worth, that is my belief........we are all screwed if we are each our own God.....isn't that really the spiritual "defect" at the center of alcoholism? I don't know about all of you, but my "best thinking" got me here ( thank God!) and no matter what Wayne Dyer or someone in India says (they are very welcome to their opinions, of course) I am not going to take their word about things,but that is just me and I believe the Bible. I also believe when it says "I am the Lord, thy God; thou shalt not have ANY other gods before me" (the first commandment). JMHO
Yes, I do agreed there is God and there are gods in our life.....it is when a "god" becomes our "God" that I run into trouble.
Take what you like..........
p.s.Without God, I find it highly unlikey mankind could even begin to come up with the concept of God and the universe, right and wrong,etc.......or love. On a deep level it runs counter to the thinking of a mortal man/woman. again..JMHO
For what it is worth, that is my belief........we are all screwed if we are each our own God.....isn't that really the spiritual "defect" at the center of alcoholism? I don't know about all of you, but my "best thinking" got me here ( thank God!) and no matter what Wayne Dyer or someone in India says (they are very welcome to their opinions, of course) I am not going to take their word about things,but that is just me and I believe the Bible. I also believe when it says "I am the Lord, thy God; thou shalt not have ANY other gods before me" (the first commandment). JMHO
Yes, I do agreed there is God and there are gods in our life.....it is when a "god" becomes our "God" that I run into trouble.
Take what you like..........
p.s.Without God, I find it highly unlikey mankind could even begin to come up with the concept of God and the universe, right and wrong,etc.......or love. On a deep level it runs counter to the thinking of a mortal man/woman. again..JMHO
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Philosophy & ethics I find most useful. I'm relieved not to believe in a god but would hate to lose the often ancient wisdoms held in religious text. Both religion and reason have influenced philosophy and ethics and te mix is for me as good as it gets. I like that it isn't finite and yet demands discipline and careful thought, I like that it grows over centuries, milleniums and decades. What it offers is a history of thought, collective wisdom, wisdom grown in the fertile enviroment of knowledge passed down, and new fresh shoots.
I have seen no evidence of god and the idea of a powerful god I find abhorant - because how then could or would I explain suffering that could so easily be stopped, if only by prompt death? To have known children first abused and then ill treated by a world that never wanted someone else's child - to know their end was to take their own life while still a child, I coulodn't bend a knee, or speak to, or look at any god able to stop that and yet didn't. Worst I know that is only a fraction.
I have seen evidence of something that eases suffering, something that leads to miracles and restores - kindness. Whether human or animal, kindness I see evidence of and believe in. But it's only power is the power given to it by our actions. So where I would solve a situation, it's up to me to see how kindness can be helpful and then offer it.
I have seen no evidence of god and the idea of a powerful god I find abhorant - because how then could or would I explain suffering that could so easily be stopped, if only by prompt death? To have known children first abused and then ill treated by a world that never wanted someone else's child - to know their end was to take their own life while still a child, I coulodn't bend a knee, or speak to, or look at any god able to stop that and yet didn't. Worst I know that is only a fraction.
I have seen evidence of something that eases suffering, something that leads to miracles and restores - kindness. Whether human or animal, kindness I see evidence of and believe in. But it's only power is the power given to it by our actions. So where I would solve a situation, it's up to me to see how kindness can be helpful and then offer it.
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Originally Posted by Peter
I believe the ultimate purpose to all religion is to better explain the world in which we live and to find inner peace.
Whichever belief provides you with these two elements is the right religion for you.
Whichever belief provides you with these two elements is the right religion for you.
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Posts: 110
"Absolutely your insights are great and appreciated. It is funny because I agree with most everything you said, the exception being that I do not believe in "one" all knowing all powerful "god". Just don't buy it... c'est la vie, to each their own!"
The only thing I know for sure is that there is a higher power...but so far it has defied explanation (for me) exactly what form he/she may choose to present itself to us. I see God as a fluid entity, who can take whatever form he/she chooses to.
And then again, my dad thinks God is an alien, so go figure!
The only thing I know for sure is that there is a higher power...but so far it has defied explanation (for me) exactly what form he/she may choose to present itself to us. I see God as a fluid entity, who can take whatever form he/she chooses to.
And then again, my dad thinks God is an alien, so go figure!
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