c'est la vie

My problem is so small compared to others here. I don't want to waste anyone's time right now. I'll try to come back when I'm feeling perky and able to post some positive thoughts to others. Maybe I'll try to stay awake for the online meeting.

Music

Only problem is Angie, it's usually the "small problems" that put us over the edge. You certainly wouldn't be wasting my time by sharing what's bothering you right now. When I was drinking, I was always capable of pulling myself together to deal with emergencies. It was when the dog pissed on the rug I went nuts. Don't wait.

c'est la vie

Music, you just made me laugh. Thanks.

It's true that I can be fine during the important things too. One stupid thing that recently broke my 2 weeks sober was taking my daughter to the orthodontist. Driving in Paris nearly sent me over the edge and then the staff didn't speak English. I was a basket case. So I came home and "eased my frustration". After that one day slip I got almost another couple weeks under my belt and I drank. I can't even remember the reason. I just don't understand. Am I thinking that I'm cured after 2 weeks? The same thing happens. I think I'm fine, I drink, then I'm sad because I wish I hadn't given in. It's so stupid and frustrating. I'm killing myself with the head games. Sometimes I even tell myself that if I just stop feeling guilty after drinking then I would be better off.

c'est la vie

Hey Equus, I'm planning to come back a little later to read more of your post. I think my thank you must have been in the post that I didn't post.

Music

Yup! The head games are something else. I tried to quit I don't know how many times. I'd tie one on and feel so bad I'd swear off drinking. A couple days go by and I'd forget how miserable I was. I'd rationalize that if I just did this or that, I'd be ok. Seems like our mind kind of has a way of blocking out the bad things. I'd end up sabotaging my own success. But, that the kind of thinking I had to learn how to deal with in order to stay sober. Takes time and a lot of work. So, what's bothering you?

c'est la vie

That's whats even crazier. I'm not drinking to drown a problem. I think it's just a habitual response to being home alone and when my smart voice is telling me that it's a bad idea and that I'll feel bad or tired or this or that, my dumb voice is saying LALALALALLALALALALA I DON'T HEAR YOU!!!!!!

I promised myself I'd be honest with myself so I write in my journal - after the fact. I can't even come here every time and say, "so I'm getting ready to drink again". Usually no one is here anyway when I really need to talk to someone. (Sorry eq, you're almost always here in my morning)

Etimee

That is so funny and so true! I found that I drank out of boredom and I need to listen to the first voice that said, go to bed, get a good night sleep, do the right thing.

Here I am at 12:43am...even if I don't have a drink, it is like I am punishing myself and not getting the right sleep.

Etimee

Pretty deep, but perfectly logical...to me.

c'est la vie

What the heck are you doing awake Etimee??? I'm trying to stay awake for the evening meeting, but there's still an hour and a half to go and I don't think I'll make it.

c'est la vie

I read the whole first post Equus, slowly and carefully. I'm so glad you sent it. I clearly need to work on the "talking back to urges and negative thoughts" and the "stimulus control". My evil voice can outtalk a whole crowd and I can easily down a can of Pringles before I realize it. Two big problems.

I really like the relapse description though. I think this follows my thoughts and it's why I don't like counting days. I like to believe that if I drink, then I can quickly swing back around the circle to "Action" armed with more info regarding triggers and emotions. I like to think that I'm a quick rebounder or I'm improving my harm reduction techniques.

Now if I can shake the guilt. Maybe that's a good thing though. If I didn't feel guilty, I would probably just stay drunk all the time.

c'est la vie

I have a thought about your circle chart and maybe I just don't have a critical piece of info. I think it should not have a "permanent exit" unless that's death, since you never know if you're going to relapse.

IMO a person is stationary within one piece of the pie until they move to the next piece. Just because there are arrows does not mean that it's constantly flowing and thus once you are in "maintenance" you are therefore moving towards "relapse". I am seeing this as saying you may rest in "maintenance" for the rest of your life and only then it would mean that you conqured your addiction. Am I getting this right?

I get bugged by people who say they kicked their addiction on the first try and yet they only have 2 years sober. How in the world could they possibly know they kicked their addiction (and get to take the exit). They are in "maintenance" and if they stay there that's great.

I really like your chart.

Etimee

I finally did go to bed by the time you wrote this! I am so tired today...errands to run, etc. Had my breakfast, had my java, now I am ready to roll....

I cannot get into meetings...I get that red x and can't get in. :-(

equus

Yet there are people that permanently exit addiction, people who say they will no longer drink and don't. On the other hand people may think that way and then drink - so it's a real problem and I think one that is beyond the limit of acedemic study except in philosophy.

Science aside my own philisophical view is this:
While there exist people that do beat addiction and get to a point where they feel they know they will no longer be at risk of relapse AND make those thoughts a reality in their lives; who am I to tell them it is not possible? Could I really claim wisdom enough to suggest their thinking had to be wrong despite the reality of their life?

I'll use another example that I think has some similarities in objective fact, marriage. With so many failed marriages one could argue that it is impossible to promise to stay together (marriage in it's simplist terms), surely evidently this is something people do and then find is impossible, surely we cannot know the future or know whether our own relationship will last? Yet there are those who do stay together and who could remove their right to have beilieved in that, promised it and then done it? Who can say that it was impossible for them to have known for sure?

In that sense I think it's a highly individual thing which rightly belongs to each person. If one person feels they cannot promise then that should be respected absolutely, just as I would respect the views of people who would not marry (I was one once!!). But if another person feels that they have promised to themselves and are in a position to 'know' it is for life I respect that absolutely too.

In the sense of what works I would actually suggest circular reasoning to be very good because it is so individual - quite simply if it works, it works whichever point of view is held. This is why I feel it belongs in philosophy rather than in study such as prognosis; it isn't objective and I don't believe it should be any more than a law should be passed making marriage promises null and void due to the break up rate, or that each couple should only be considered committed if they are married.

At an even more personal level, there is a peace in this house at month 7, it's tangible, there's both a relapse plan and a confidence in D he won't be needing it - weirdly (without having seen the charts above) that did seem to happen around month 6!! (my other head says that's just as likely coincidence though!).

For some it seems the confidence is what helps and for others the waryness - choices choices.......

c'est la vie

I love having something intellectual to think about so don't take this as arguing. Just thinking and practicing my lively discussion techniques (they're getting rusty).

I agree that someone can say they are committed to not drinking/drugging/smoking etc or they are committed to a lifetime marriage and that I have no ability to tell them they are not committed. I do not agree, however, that it puts anyone in the "permanent" category, when the potential for a problem, even if miniscule, exsists.

The circular philosophy works well even for the marriage example and doesn't discount any person's committment. If you replace the words "maintenance" with "happy or stable marriage" and replace the words "relapse" with "problem" or some other generic term, you can see that it's possible to hang out for a lifetime in "happy marriage" or if a "problem" arises at some point then you cycle through the stages and ultimately return to "happy marriage".

I believe the "pre contemplation" phase is an inherent part of the "relapse" or "problem" phase rather than being exterior to the circle, which permits every person to be in the circle at all times, rather than saying they only enter AFTER a problem begins. Obviously they enter at some given point such as when they begin drinking or when they get married. I suppose getting divorced would get you out of the circle (LOL). HMMM. Now you've got me thinking about what happens if you quit drinking. If the "maintenance" phase simply meant "comfortable with habit" and could mean abstinence or moderation - whatever was truly comfortable, then that could work for life. If what was comfortable became a problem then it starts the circle again.

I don't think you mind long winded answers to your thoughts, but I apologize anyway if this is hitting deaf ears. It was fun to write.

equus

You're right I don't mind long winded replies - I mean come on, I'm about as long winded as it gets myself!!

Reading your reply one thing strikes me - but I'm unsure how accurate I am. So here's a question:
In marriage, recovery, there certainly are problems (yep - I'm still smoking but the marriage front is ace!!), my question is this - how passive/active do you see the role of the people involved?
I don't believe either that 'it' puts anyone in a permanent category, not just the facts because they conflict. However what I respect is that a person ability to believe and act on that belief may put them there - ie, it's not an 'it' it's the person themeslf or themselves.

Autumn

This is a good discussion C'est and Equus.

On the one hand, I agree with Equus on having stepped outside the circle, having made an unwavering decision to never take another drink.

On the other hand, having made that decision, it also means I acknowledge that I can never safely drink again (a form of continued maintenance), so I guess I have a permanent reservation within the circle.

Whatever.... everything is just one big friggin' circle to me anyway, lol.

But yeah, Equus, I get what you mean in the aspect that making such a decision and being secure in that comes a certain sense of freedom. I think a lot of that has to do with the art of letting go.

Interesting thoughts here.

c'est la vie

That's a really interesting interpretation Autumn. Complete acceptance and a sincere belief that you will not continue riding the circle-go-round means that you finally escape. I think it's that word "permanent" that bugs me since nothing is permanent until death. Too bad for me that I can get caught up in such a detail! I just know deep down inside that I'm not ready to leave the circle. Heck I'm not even in maintenance so what am I doing even thinking of leaving.

I still have reservations so I'm not at peace. It's very frustrating knowing what I need to do, but not having the inner strenth to do it.

Well today is a good one so that's what counts.

equus

I think the whole process stems from accepting a step by step progression - if you read it carefully it outlines the worth of each step in itself. So, right now it's the next one that counts rather than the next ......

In regard to 'nothing being permanent until death' who says it is? As I stopped drinking alongside D I can tell you nothing much is permanent and yet I don't drink. Not drinking opens up new doors even for me so the things I go through not drinking constantly change - there's no static quality to it and I'm loving it!!

With smoking I'm right at the begining, struggling a great deal with many similar issues, mainly that my emotional enthusiam for it (stopping) seems to have left the building!!
Be careful of self talk that says 'can't' - that's a message to myself too right now, (my quit date for smoking is the 30th!!)

c'est la vie

I think there is merit to the belief that you have to have an experience or gain information that is intimitely related to your own personal life (maybe that's hitting bottom) in order for the cycle to work well. I didn't have any problem at all quitting pot after one helacious night that I'll never forget (in my 30's no less!). I also didn't have any problem stopping smoking since my kids were at an age where they noticed things and I didn't want them to ever know I smoked. You had an easy time giving up drinking since you had a painful personal experience watching D struggle.
I don't know why I'm having trouble believing that alcohol is bad for me though. I think because it's more socially acceptable and legal. And maybe you haven't had that personally detrimental experience yet with smoking and that's why you struggle quitting.

Anyway, good luck on your quit on June 30. Think positive!!!

Autumn

I agree. I also think that the act of turning down drinks ad infinitum marks us as different, and not really entitled to step outside the circle, for example, such as someone who decides never to drink again for health reasons alone. Still, I think that we are not required to become slaves to the circle with good maintenance techniques and making peace with our lots as recovering/recovered addicts. I believe a comfort zone is totally achievable, where the "nag" of a relapse/slip is no longer an issue. Reaffirming I can no longer drink keeps me in check as a consistent reminder of my status where alcohol is concerned. Not that I feel that the potential for a relapse/slip is a nag for me - it isn't at all. I won't let those thoughts nag me. I guess that's just my way of maintaining my abstinence; I kind of look at even the thought of taking a drink as taboo. Detachment and acceptance is really the key I think to escaping the circle after the maintenance stage.... remaining in the circle, imo, is a state of mind. I think it goes hand in hand with the fear of relapse, which is why many remain in a program. Not to knock those folks; it may be what they need. Ah, you know you love it. Lol. You know what C'est, I don't know that it really has to do with inner strength. I think there comes a time when you just let go, which is kind of the opposite. You just know deep down inside that it's over. It wasn't something that I tried for.... it still isn't. Try looking at it that way if you can. Is alcohol really an option for you anymore? I think if you accept that it isn't, the struggle is over. You're just resigned. I wish I could explain to you how to get to that state of mind. I didn't consciously get there with heavy decision-making and such.... alcohol had just beat me into submission, and there were only one of two choices left. But I don't think that's necessary for you. You can consciously choose to let go. A thorough cost-benefit analysis would be a good start.

They all count, good and bad. The bad seem to outnumber the good sometimes, but I suppose that's a state of mind where I could use some hammering out as well. This time last year I probably woke up feeling like I was going to die. Yes, it's a good day.