Sexual abuse in AA a serious problem
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Originally Posted by doorknob
I don't think anyone mentioned the military. I seem to remember hearing something about that in the news fairly recently.
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Originally Posted by Don S
And the mentor-type sponsor relationship can lead to abuse. That is why some other recovery groups have specifically avoided anything resembling sponsors in their structures.
Any deviation usually attracts a lot of unwanted attention from other members.
I have never sponsored women nor have I ever been sponsored by one.
I am happy to announce that all our honours are still intact...
Don, as you are not an official member of AA something I fear you may not fully understand is that AA has it's own built in "centralized structure."
Deviation from certain spiritual laws very often leads to emotional decay and relapse......our lives are in our own hands....
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Im only a member of AA,and not AA itself.I understand what youre saying Don.There are many forms of abuse.mental,emotional,,etc.that can,and have come from the same sex,as myself.I wonder about sponsorship,personally.Have had a bad experience,with 2,that left a bad taste in my mouth,for awhile.Can be an ego trip for some.Some, people,put sponsors,on da hill-tops where they dont belong.,too.And because of my experience,i dont and wont call myself a sponsor.Seen alot of stuff,with this sponsorship,.Im just an alcoholic,sharring with others,and how AA worked for me.One alcoholic talking to another alcoholic.I work with others,to be of service.I have many in my life today that are my sponsors,,lol.But ive been in program awhile too.Im not new.Not everyone follows structure,i guess.Recovery is in the BB.Our reliance is not on people,but a HP.Im more than sure that others in program have had super great sponsors,.That do follow program and stick to recovery program.
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The bottom line is that these types of predators exist in every element of society. They tend to gravitate to groups and areas where they know there will be vulnerable people that they can take advantage of. For instance, child molestors gravitate towards working in schools, day cares, cub scouts, etc., but that doesn't make these institutions a problem, it means that vigilance is required.
When I did attend AA, which I do not now do (just so I am clear on my status), no one ever spoke about this issue in the meetings I attended for over a year, nor were there any posters up, pamphlets, etc., nothing. Perhaps more public awareness within various programs / meetings would be a good thing. Or a periodic, say once a month public discussion of the issue at beginner meetings. I only inadvertantly heard about the "13th steppers" outside of a meeting one night when a bunch of guys were standing around warning a young lady about so and so who is a 13th stepper. That was almost a year after I had been attending AA.
I would also point out that now a days there are more and more young people coming to AA meetings b/c awareness of the problems of addiction is increasing. Just look on this board at the number of people in their twenties or possibly younger. AA and ever group attracting vulnerable members of society need to be accountable and must take steps to protect these members. I do not mean just informal measures, there must be a reasonable system in place (see end of discussion for reason why) to protect these persons in AA generally and in each group specifically.
To be fair, AA has been clear about the boundaries, men should mentor men and women should mentor women, this helps to some degree, but what about same sex predators? Reality check, there is a need for greater awareness in general. Greater awareness within the rooms would be a good thing because with greater awareness the 13th steppers would realize that their target group is no longer easy pickings and move on or face the very real prospect of being caught.
When I was a teenager I took a driving course to get my licence b/c I lived on my own and didn't have access to a car or someone that could teach me to drive. So, that makes me a vulnerable teen (had been living on my own since I was 14) without adult supervision and the driving instructor, an adult, in a position of trust. To be clear, I went to a licenced school. I ended up coming into contact with this instructor, not my instructor who was really quite good, who was a same sex predator. He did everything he could to try to "tempt" me to spend time with him including offering to teach me in his "sports car" and to give me "private lessons". What a laugh, while I didn't realize what he was up to originally, I thought his "sports car", a dodge daytona, was such a joke that I just couldn't take him seriously.
I later discovered, mostly because he started making statements towards me, that he was in fact trying to pick me up. I was fortunate that I am strong willed and told him off. Point is, he gravitated to a position of trust where he knew he would have access to young men and attempted to make himself more "attractive" to them and to solicit them. Awareness of this type of problem was low when I was a teenager, now it isn't, so why should AA not be responsible for ensuring that all members and potential members are aware that these types of people may be in the rooms?
As a lawyer, I can tell you that AA has a positive obligation, ie. social host responsibility [i.e. think "liability"] in Canada; in the US it is called something else, but I know it exists there b/c Canada's social host doctrine was built on the US doctrine) to ensure the safety of those that use the rooms. If AA in general, and its groups in particular, are aware of the problem and don't take reasonable steps to deal with the problem, then AA generally and local groups specifically will eventually be targeted by class action lawyers and the organization will become bankrupt and disintegrate. Is that what the organization wants?
Regards, Levi.
When I did attend AA, which I do not now do (just so I am clear on my status), no one ever spoke about this issue in the meetings I attended for over a year, nor were there any posters up, pamphlets, etc., nothing. Perhaps more public awareness within various programs / meetings would be a good thing. Or a periodic, say once a month public discussion of the issue at beginner meetings. I only inadvertantly heard about the "13th steppers" outside of a meeting one night when a bunch of guys were standing around warning a young lady about so and so who is a 13th stepper. That was almost a year after I had been attending AA.
I would also point out that now a days there are more and more young people coming to AA meetings b/c awareness of the problems of addiction is increasing. Just look on this board at the number of people in their twenties or possibly younger. AA and ever group attracting vulnerable members of society need to be accountable and must take steps to protect these members. I do not mean just informal measures, there must be a reasonable system in place (see end of discussion for reason why) to protect these persons in AA generally and in each group specifically.
To be fair, AA has been clear about the boundaries, men should mentor men and women should mentor women, this helps to some degree, but what about same sex predators? Reality check, there is a need for greater awareness in general. Greater awareness within the rooms would be a good thing because with greater awareness the 13th steppers would realize that their target group is no longer easy pickings and move on or face the very real prospect of being caught.
When I was a teenager I took a driving course to get my licence b/c I lived on my own and didn't have access to a car or someone that could teach me to drive. So, that makes me a vulnerable teen (had been living on my own since I was 14) without adult supervision and the driving instructor, an adult, in a position of trust. To be clear, I went to a licenced school. I ended up coming into contact with this instructor, not my instructor who was really quite good, who was a same sex predator. He did everything he could to try to "tempt" me to spend time with him including offering to teach me in his "sports car" and to give me "private lessons". What a laugh, while I didn't realize what he was up to originally, I thought his "sports car", a dodge daytona, was such a joke that I just couldn't take him seriously.
I later discovered, mostly because he started making statements towards me, that he was in fact trying to pick me up. I was fortunate that I am strong willed and told him off. Point is, he gravitated to a position of trust where he knew he would have access to young men and attempted to make himself more "attractive" to them and to solicit them. Awareness of this type of problem was low when I was a teenager, now it isn't, so why should AA not be responsible for ensuring that all members and potential members are aware that these types of people may be in the rooms?
As a lawyer, I can tell you that AA has a positive obligation, ie. social host responsibility [i.e. think "liability"] in Canada; in the US it is called something else, but I know it exists there b/c Canada's social host doctrine was built on the US doctrine) to ensure the safety of those that use the rooms. If AA in general, and its groups in particular, are aware of the problem and don't take reasonable steps to deal with the problem, then AA generally and local groups specifically will eventually be targeted by class action lawyers and the organization will become bankrupt and disintegrate. Is that what the organization wants?
Regards, Levi.
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Originally Posted by leviathon
If AA in general, and its groups in particular, are aware of the problem and don't take reasonable steps to deal with the problem, then AA generally and local groups specifically will eventually be targeted by class action lawyers and the organization will become bankrupt and disintegrate. Is that what the organization wants? Regards, Levi.
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Hey Music, so you have been in for thirty years and there have never been any problems so it is all in people's heads and it should just be ignored because you haven't heard about it. Great way to deal with an issue, sticking your head in the sand. Please review the following thread, it is from a 14 year old girl that uses this web site, i.e. a weak vulnerable person that a predator might be interested in, and tell me that you feel that there is no need for awareness...
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...lic-92984.html
Do some lawyers abuse the system, sure. You find those in every group of people. Should we all be concerned about the vulnerable in our society, groups, meetings, etc., ABSOLUTELY. As I previously stated, I wasn't aware of the issue until almost a year after I started attending because no one talked about it in the groups, there was no literature available. Reality check, there were a number of meetings I attended regularly where there were a lot of early twenties and teenage people present.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...lic-92984.html
Do some lawyers abuse the system, sure. You find those in every group of people. Should we all be concerned about the vulnerable in our society, groups, meetings, etc., ABSOLUTELY. As I previously stated, I wasn't aware of the issue until almost a year after I started attending because no one talked about it in the groups, there was no literature available. Reality check, there were a number of meetings I attended regularly where there were a lot of early twenties and teenage people present.
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Levi, I am sure you must have a point but I am having a hard time finding it.
xoducky is having problems at home with her alcoholic mom. I do not see what the issue of sexual abuse in AA has to do with her.
xoducky is having problems at home with her alcoholic mom. I do not see what the issue of sexual abuse in AA has to do with her.
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Simple Peter, as you will note I realized I was on a tangent and revised my posting... ducky is a young vulnerable person, a good example of someone that may be open to abuse by a predator type person using AA to find vulnerable people. The point is, what is wrong with having a pamphlet or discussion about the issue from time to time to ensure that the vulnerable, regardless of age, are aware that it can be an issue and that it should not be happening.
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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I have had a bad experience in AA. An oldtimer had alternative motives in offering his ES&H. It was very maddening and frustrating. I just wanted to get sober, not engage in any sort of relationship. You know, back off! I"m trying to get my wits about me after being drunk for a 1/4 of a century. I'm not interested in anything other then learning how to get and stay sober.
It was enough to send me screaming off into the hills. I kept coming back to AA because I needed to get sober and I believed AA worked, and it has worked. The problem was an individual problem, not a problem with AA as a whole. It is my responsibility to deal with matters with my own best interest in mind. There are going to be wackos in any organization or gathering. Is the solution to disband any organization that a sexual predator whittles their way into? Ludicrous! So long Catholic Church, public schools, boy scouts, Medical Association, PTA, etc.
Yes, there are many people who are taken advantage of in programs, but there are far more people who have been helped then harmed.
On the other hand, I have been the only women in a closed meeting before. I am a trusted servant in my Homegroup and sat around the table with 12 other men without any problems. It was how the cards fell that night and turned out to be very good meeting.
Predators are every where. It is up to us to be educated and aware of the dangers out there. There are those who are vulnerable and inexperienced, or unaware. Is it the responsibility of the program? I say not. If we see dangers signs we can try to divert any train wrecks, but that is about all we can do. At the meetings I attend, we are all adults and make our own choices.
It was enough to send me screaming off into the hills. I kept coming back to AA because I needed to get sober and I believed AA worked, and it has worked. The problem was an individual problem, not a problem with AA as a whole. It is my responsibility to deal with matters with my own best interest in mind. There are going to be wackos in any organization or gathering. Is the solution to disband any organization that a sexual predator whittles their way into? Ludicrous! So long Catholic Church, public schools, boy scouts, Medical Association, PTA, etc.
Yes, there are many people who are taken advantage of in programs, but there are far more people who have been helped then harmed.
On the other hand, I have been the only women in a closed meeting before. I am a trusted servant in my Homegroup and sat around the table with 12 other men without any problems. It was how the cards fell that night and turned out to be very good meeting.
Predators are every where. It is up to us to be educated and aware of the dangers out there. There are those who are vulnerable and inexperienced, or unaware. Is it the responsibility of the program? I say not. If we see dangers signs we can try to divert any train wrecks, but that is about all we can do. At the meetings I attend, we are all adults and make our own choices.
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At the time I quit drinking, all three of my kids could have written the same post as "Ducky." Ya know, in your response to my post, you switched from what this thread is all about and my comment, to me burying my head and ignoring all the problems that exist in AA. My wife was bothered at a meeting one night. She told me and I took the guy outside and told him I'd beat his a$$ if he bothered my wife again. Problem solved!!! I've never heard of "SEXUAL ABUSE" in the AA circles I run in that wasn't brought on by two consenting adults, and if I might say so, not without warning from their respective sponsors. Some folks just won't listen. As far as pamphlets go, there are plenty out there to deal with the problems people come to AA about. Most AAs have been around the block a few times and know what's going on. To play the naive card and claim that they were taken advantage of is silly. As has been stated previously, 13th stepping is one of the first subjects talked about to newcomers, and can't be discussed without mentioning the sickness of some and the vulnerability of others. Furthermore, I don't have a clue what your reference to "Ducky" was all about other than to point out that there are people of all ages who are torn up by the disease of alcoholism. Well 
Look through the posts here. There are many who still claim it isn't a disease, and are selfish and self-centered enough to believe that they are the victom. So, stop with the lawyer stuff.
Look through the posts here. There are many who still claim it isn't a disease, and are selfish and self-centered enough to believe that they are the victom. So, stop with the lawyer stuff.
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Well I wasn't going to put in my .02 but have changed my mind.
First of all that article was from 6 years ago in England. Now I have English friends in AA that have come here to visit and have attended meetings here and commented that they wished their meetings were like ours.
I have had friends here go to England, attend meetings there, come home shaking their heads not sure if they had been at an AA meeting or not. AA seems to be run differently than here, I don't know why that is.
Now Levi as to your comment above, apparently you have never seen 3 or 4 sober AA women corner the offending male or female of a 13 step attempt. It is a sight to behold.
Also, as Music has stated, I don't know what the male sponsors tell their sponsees, but I do know that the first thing that is talked about to a newcomer female, by several of the sober female members, is all about 13 stepping, and sticking with the women.
As Music said, none of us got here being naive. Over almost 25 years now of attending meetings ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, I have never seen anything like what was in that article.
JMHO
Love and (((((to all))))),
First of all that article was from 6 years ago in England. Now I have English friends in AA that have come here to visit and have attended meetings here and commented that they wished their meetings were like ours.
I have had friends here go to England, attend meetings there, come home shaking their heads not sure if they had been at an AA meeting or not. AA seems to be run differently than here, I don't know why that is.
Now Levi as to your comment above, apparently you have never seen 3 or 4 sober AA women corner the offending male or female of a 13 step attempt. It is a sight to behold.
Also, as Music has stated, I don't know what the male sponsors tell their sponsees, but I do know that the first thing that is talked about to a newcomer female, by several of the sober female members, is all about 13 stepping, and sticking with the women.
As Music said, none of us got here being naive. Over almost 25 years now of attending meetings ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, I have never seen anything like what was in that article.
JMHO
Love and (((((to all))))),
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It doesn't take alot of strength and courage to say no to unwanted advances. If it doesn't feel right, tell someone and ask them their take, get their opinion. We've got to look out for one another.
Maybe I'm wrong. I guess I really don't no how to help someone who doesn't have the strength or courage to stand up for themselves or realize they are heading into danger. I realize they are some out there who can't recognize it.
Maybe I'm wrong. I guess I really don't no how to help someone who doesn't have the strength or courage to stand up for themselves or realize they are heading into danger. I realize they are some out there who can't recognize it.
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Laurie, I can honestly say that I have never seen 3-4 women get on a man attempting to abuse his position of trust. I am VERY glad that you advised of that situation. I, as a male, to be fair, have never been pulled aside and warned about the thirteenth steppers. Again, however, I attended for over a year and never learned about the 13th stepper in a meeting... I only heard about it inadvertantly ... the issue actually came up with an old timer who was hanging on a young lady (adult) and the guys were joking with her outside the meeting about the thirteenth steppers and to watch for them... up until then it had NEVER crossed my mind... so again... what is wrong with raising awareness of the issue? That is all I am saying....
I also wish to be extremely clear, I think AA is a wonderful organization that does a HUGE amount of good. While I am not in it, that doesn't mean I don't commend AA and all the wonderful miracles it gives rise too. I use the big book regulalry. My sole issue is why not raise awareness in AA and everywhere else in society... I know personally a lot of women and even a couple of youths that have been abused and I wonder why we wouldn't all want to just ensure that the issue is formally out there and that this type of behavior is unacceptable in any form. The people I know are strong and upstanding people that were taken advantage of by people in positions of trust... because of the "trust" they let their gaurds down until it was too late.... Now they have to live for the rest of their lives with what was done to them.
I don't want to be on a soap box, but this is an important issue in society generally, not just in AA. The stats are that one in four women are raped, for every one child abuser that is reported, 300 go unreported. Why not just raise awareness to prevent this stuff. My beef isn't with AA at all. This issue just strikes a chord with me b/c I have dated women that have been raped, I have relatives that have been raped, I know children that have been sexually abused (reported)... these types of predators need to be held accountable.
I also wish to be extremely clear, I think AA is a wonderful organization that does a HUGE amount of good. While I am not in it, that doesn't mean I don't commend AA and all the wonderful miracles it gives rise too. I use the big book regulalry. My sole issue is why not raise awareness in AA and everywhere else in society... I know personally a lot of women and even a couple of youths that have been abused and I wonder why we wouldn't all want to just ensure that the issue is formally out there and that this type of behavior is unacceptable in any form. The people I know are strong and upstanding people that were taken advantage of by people in positions of trust... because of the "trust" they let their gaurds down until it was too late.... Now they have to live for the rest of their lives with what was done to them.
I don't want to be on a soap box, but this is an important issue in society generally, not just in AA. The stats are that one in four women are raped, for every one child abuser that is reported, 300 go unreported. Why not just raise awareness to prevent this stuff. My beef isn't with AA at all. This issue just strikes a chord with me b/c I have dated women that have been raped, I have relatives that have been raped, I know children that have been sexually abused (reported)... these types of predators need to be held accountable.
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