2stop

Someone with cancer has a choice to treat cancer.....and how to treat that cancer.....some people have been cured of cancer!

earlybird

Im curious,...if this was "nothing but a choice" than why did you have to apologize to your family members? If this is indeed just a choice and not a disease,...than your drinking should have never gotten to a point where you are having to apologize to loved ones. You know exactly what I mean and are pretending you dont. Yes,......finally quitting was MY choice. I was finally able to make that choice after not being able to do so for years. This disease isnt a choice. Anymore than cancer is a choice. Nobody picks up their first drink and goes "Oops,....this will make me an alcoholic" So stop pretending you are clueless to what we mean when we say this is a disease. Yes quitting is a choice,...but its a painfully difficult one to live up to.

2stop

I detect a loty of bitterness and misdirected anger towards my post.......I apologized to my family because I was truly sorry for the negative repeeated bad choices of not taking RESPONSIBILITY for my disease.........you will see if you reread my posts I never say addiction isn't a disease! I say, like any disease it is OUR choise to treat it.....or feel sorry for ourselves and revel in that age old addict/alcoholic revelry..."It is worse for me.I am worse than you.it is the end of the world..THE APOCALYPSE IS Coming.........I used to indulge in that thinking too.............I didn't get better 'By accident" I didn't decide to NOT buy alcohol or get pills refilled because I went to meetings or found God.........

I DECIDED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.......that my friend is a choice.....

I am curious?? Why does one ask a question.and when getting an answer yell........don't pretend you don't know!! LOL.........
I know about my recovery and my experiences...........I know some diseases are curable and I don't have to be told by anyone they aren't.when I know full well they are!! Addicts/alcoholics LOVE the drama of 'worst case scenario"........
Isn't the important thing people get help??? people get better?

I am not clueless my dear...............LOL....I am joyous....happy and free tonight! How about you?

Peter

I still follow the "disease" threads with interest , although I try not to participate in them too much.

I don't like when they get nasty.

Despite what the AMA has declared the debate goes on....and on ......

There are thousands and thousands of pages of information written to support either side of the argument.

Based on this overwhealming body of information and based on the rousing debates I have participated in I have come to some very basic conclusions about the "disease argument."

1) That there is no empirical proof anywhere that alcoholism is a disease or that it is not.

2) The debate appears to be split equally down the middle with just as many people on either side supporting their claim.

3) That it is unlikely that this issue will be resolved anytime in the near future.

Other than these basic "facts" everything else is purely opinion.

Personally the disease concept has served me well in my own recovery and appears to have served others well too. Is there something bad about that? Doe's it mean I was foolish or misinformed? IT DOES NOT.

Doe's it mean others are foolish and misguided for thinking it is not ? Will they miss out on recovery? OF COURSE NOT.

Recovery is a buffet table......take what you want and pass on the rest......

Karl appears to have gotten something from his thread and have moved along.

If it is still the desire of some to continue this discussion without him please remember to be nice.

mckelvey

DISEASE N. A condition (Inability to control drinking) of an organism (Human beings) that impairs (Negative consequences) normal physiological functioning (Health and well-being).

Seems as if it can be made to fit disease by definition. At least this one. Then again I can argue both sides.
Karlofthenorth---To your Micheal Bishop: he writes that calling it a disease only distances the drinker from the problem but i would argue that by calling it a disease one actually validates that it is in fact a problem to the "diseased"
Anyhoo-I sort of agree with what someone said when you first posted. A.A. doesnt take sides in public controversy. Tenth Tradition.
I would say that instead of getting jacked off at this non-alcoholic writer, concentrate on your recovery. I'm coming up on 2yrs sober and I continually struggle with choosing my battles. I mostly come back to taking the high road and working on myself. Becoming enmeshed in trivial BS distracts me from me. Thats positive selfishness. Good luck bro.

equus

This may be true in the USA but there's very little debate in the UK - none that I have found in journals, one journal review actually commented on the difference between USA and UK.

However (having had no access to AA here) outside of AA it's dealt with very clinically and how it's classed is used for assessment and treatment but not to in anyway suggest people are powerless or that no choices are involved. This comes from experience with 2 GP's, 5 different addiction counsellors.

I do think the climate here surrounding this is in contrast to what seems to be the feelings over there - even from those on the pro side like myself.

fritolay

The bottom line is that AA and other addiction/recovery groups label alcoholism a disease to lure people into recovery, because by removing responsibility and blame from the drinker, they are far more likely to offer a tempting "supportive" environment. Like I said before, what you one needs to tell themselves to get sober is fine with me. However, alcoholism is no more a disease than is smoking, over-eating, or sniffing paint thinner. There are some identifiable genes that some alcoholics inheret that predispose them to addiction, which makes moderation and control far more difficult than would be for a normal person, but that does not seperate the addicted from the choices that they can make to nip it in the bud, whenever they want, no matter how hard it is.

Same with me, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I stopped drinking on my own, and I'm the one who chose to drink excessively when I did, and I am responsible for any and everything that happened as a result. I would never in a million years even consider that I suffered from a "disease". I've dealt with disease. Terrible, incurable disease. It's an insult for people to blame their bad choices and bad behavior on a "disease" while millions of people are dying of cancer, Alzheimer's, parkinsons, and other diseases through no fault of their own.

He apologized to his family members because it was the right thing to do. Because he chose to drink, and his drinking hurt them. In your world, you'd claim you had a disease, so you aren't responsible, but that's a load and you know it.

I've encountered that with a certain someone on this board, it seems to be as chronic as their alcoholism was. Recovery should never be an obsession that one shoves down other people's throats... "my way or the highway" style, or "you're all lying and I'm right", it's just crap. I've noticed a weird relationship with people and AA and the "disease concept", they latch on to it for dear life, and I can't figure out why... but I have a hunch as to why. My hunch is that if their world as they know it were debunked, and they had to face the harsh reality that they screwed up their own lives through a series of their own bad choices and behavior, all fully under their control, the grief would be too much to bare. That's why I said, whatever it takes to stop drinking, if it works, go for it. I just don't think they should expect others to believe whatever it was they told themselves after the fact.

BigSis

This is the part that I think is key to those who do NOT accept the disease model.

But I don't get why having a disease makes one irresponsible?

If I get cancer, am I not responsible for getting help to get well? Diabetes... don't I have to change my behavior to stay in better health? Heart disease... don't I need to make lifestyle changes? Alcoholism... don't I need to stop drinking?

How does making it a disease absolve one of responsibility?



Normies take a first drink - often out of curiousity. Alcoholics take a first drink - often out of curiousity. After that point, the condition for the alcoholic is different than that of a normie. But it does not make me less responsible.

FriendofBill

Cure? Has there been a cure and nobody told me? Im always the last to know.

If all it takes to be cured, everyone just dont drink for one day, and bang! you will be cured.

If its not a disease, then what are you cured from?

2stop

I believe it can be cured............but it doesn't happen in one day. Chemotherapy doesn't eradicate cancer in one day either. Yet some are cured......some are not........I DO believe some ARE cured from addiction..........it is a process like anything esle. To "assume' anyone is saying you can 'quit drinking' and be cured in aday, a week is a misinterpretation really.

I found for me......as I challenged my belief systems.....retrained ny cognitive thought processes...........my cravings, misery use..decreased in DIRECT proportion to how my thought patterns changed........also when retraining our minds it doesn't become a question of can I drink moderately? can I ever use again? The question does not even enter my head! That is just my experience, though. My recovery is my responsibility.......and I view it as treatable as any other disease these days. 2 years of freedom has been very exciting for me.........I am doing things I thought I could never ever accomplish.

Why is such sarcasm always brought up when one shares a view different than 12 steps? I used to feel intimidate and threatened from it....kinda like I was doomed to he$$ if I didn't "get it' the 12 step way....that was MY deal though....no one makes me think anything or do anything........I just truly belive it can do great harm to tell someone they are forever doomed to addiction.they can only 'treat' it....or put it in remission.........yet cancer can be totally eradicated from the body? IMO addiction is a cancer of the mind....there are physiological aspects/dependence of course but each persons situation is different...........but to say NONE are cured is not accurate to me.

just my two cents worth though.........not meant to offend or inflame anyone......it is an issue I have had..and am just sharing my experience.

2stop

Question.................Do you believe all diseases are incurable?

Don S

A summary of arguments about the disease concept (DC) of alcoholism

DC Advocates: The addiction disease concept should be embraced for both its social and
personal utilities.
It conveys the seriousness of alcoholism/addiction to those suffering from it and to the public at large.
It designates public health authorities as the agents responsible for the prevention and treatment of the condition and encourages the development of local facilities for the treatment of addiction.
The DC replaces moral censure and criminal punishment of the alcoholic/addict with unprejudiced access to health care institutions. It relieves guilt and increases help-seeking behavior.
The DC provides an organizing construct through which the addicted client, his or her care providers, and those in the wider family and social environment can understand the nature of his or her problem (disease), the manifestations of that problem (symptoms), the potential causes of that problem (etiology), the natural evolution of that problem
(course), interventions that are available to diminish or eliminate this problem (treatment
options), and the likely outcome of such interventions (prognosis).
The addiction disease
concept is true and it works as an organizing construct for both the individual and society.

DC Critics: The addiction disease concept has survived only because of its historically
brief social utility and the interconnected organizational empire that continue to profit from it.
It should be abandoned because it is scientifically indefensible, fails to provide an adequate framework for prevention, strips the alcoholic/addict of freedom and responsibility, and is misapplied to types of alcohol/drug problems for which it is ill-suited.
Labeling alcohol/drug problems as incurable diseases is stigmatizing and dissuades many heavy drinkers from seeking help.
By restricting its definition of vulnerability for alcohol problems to a small group of alcoholic drinkers, the disease concept has allowed the alcohol/drug industries to escape culpability for their product and promotional practices.
The DC has led to the misdirection of public resources in the areas of research, prevention and the management of alcohol/drug problems.
The addiction disease concept is not true, does not work and is harmful to individuals and communities.

http://www.bhrm.org/papers/Counselor3.pdf.

mckelvey

Wow! The content of your link is about as good as it gets! Thanks Don S

minnie

Anyone heard Clancy I. speak? I downloaded one of his shares from XA Speakers the other day and I really like his take on this. To paraphrase - when he didn't drink, his world became grey. When he drank, it became colourful. His challenge in recovery is to make his world colourful without the drink.

I'm not going to add to the disease or not debate - I've done it plenty of times before and it's not really my place. My only comment would be that I have known situations where the disease thing has caused some people to look at their problem in a one-dimensional fashion, even within a 12 Step framework. And that is dangerous, imho.

Music

Following is a quote from the Big Book, Chapter 5:
"So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kill us!"

Frito, does the quote sound to you like we're trying to dodge responsibility? Please do me a favor. When you're going to make a statement about AA, make sure it's not coming out of your anal orifice. AA is a supportive environment but it's also an "in your face" environment, which probably explains why some folks are afraid of it and choose to make comments like the one you made above. We do that a lot you know. If we don't understand something, rather than walk through the fear and learn about it, we tend to find ways to discredit what we're afraid of so as not to have to face it. It's called discrimination, prejudice, racism, bigotry, and homophobia. In a word.....DENIAL!!

earlybird

Bravo.


Its the same as a child who at all costs,..sticks to their story. "It was a choice" "You CHOSE to pick up that drink everytime"....whatever....Yes a signal went from our brain to our arms, down to our hands, and we picked up the drink. What we are suggesting is that, that signal was tainted before it was ever sent. YOU tell ME your take on this, Fritolay,.....if alcoholism is nothing more than a simple choice,.....than why was I , one night, sitting inside a cold, disgusting, dumpster, drinking out of a fifth of whiskey I had thrown in their four hours earlier after having made a CHOICE to STOP drinking??? Why? Why was I in their with tears streaming down my face, asking myself why,...WHY?...WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS????!!?? I tried that very day to stop drinking. I had made that choice to quit. I took that bottle and threw it in the dumpster behind my building. I crept out of bed at 3 am, and snuck down there and climbed in that dumpster, popped that bottle open and drank it. The choice to drink when it has gotten that far is a FORCED choice. We FEEL like it is our ONLY choice. Which isnt much of a choice at all. I cannot explain why or how in a way that your alcoholism-ignorant mind can get around, but, we cant stop drinking, we dont know how, the thought terrifies us. Much like someone holding a gun to your Mothers head,...and they tell you to commit a crime for them or they will shoot her. Its still YOUR choice now isnt it? But you make the choice that you feel FORCED into making. Even though you know its wrong. If that aint "disease",....I dont know what is. So stop making ridiculous, totally unfounded, claims about alcoholics and alcoholism. Its been proven that alcohol,...taken in ALCOHOLICALLY,....sparks a chemical change in the brain. That is scientific fact. But go ahead,....argue that, too.

rose petals

i dont give a flying hoot whether it is a disease or not--i dont know--i dont know that i ever will know--i just know i dont want to be blacked out, waking up in my owm waste and vomit, completely out of my mind, shaaking and terrified--i read somewhere a quote that says-- a wise man once said i dont know--im not saying im a wise man, but i do understand what that quote means--laura

earlybird

But why wont you believe it when trained doctors TELL you it IS a disease? Are you one of those people who doesnt believe things unless they can taste it, smell it, hear, or see it? Because if thats the case,....what about God?

Music

Earlybird, have you ever heard the phrase, "pissing up a rope?" Ever tried it? Convincing some folks is like pissing up a rope. It's fruitless! Waste of time! I know what I know happened to me. What other people think happened to me is none of my business. I do take issue however, when someone who is completely clueless, makes a blanket statement about AA. There may be people in AA who agree with Frito, and that's their choice. The program doesn't bare out his statement.

doorknob

Not getting the drug that your body is physically dependent on is painful. Doing what you don't want to be doing to alleviate that pain is frustrating and disheartening. I've been there and I've cried, quite recently in fact. Whether I have a disease or not, I have to make a choice, and then stick to it.