Where am I?
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Originally Posted by doorknob
.. why must people in AA/NA be so adamant about belief in God being a prerequisite for sobriety. My belief about ultimate reality is just as valid as the next person, and I'm tired of it being looked at as a defect that needs to be changed.
I am a member of The 12 Step fellowship now for 9 years and I assure you that I have no quarrel with whatever you choose to believe.
DK if you are really as comfortable about your own atheist/agnostic beliefs as you say then what these people think should not really bother you so much.
Focus your energy more on developing your own undersanding of the universe and let them sing their songs.
We all need each other.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The road of happy destiny.
Posts: 2,294
I actually owe you an apology, DK. I had some of my own personal sh!t going on last night when I posted my reply and over-reacted a bit. I also looked back over the thread and realized my post about not being willing to believe was really not what I had intended to say. There may not be any way to fix it, but I am going to try. Hopefully I won't just mess it all up worse.
It is really very simple. When you posted about believing in an unknown ultimate reality and, in fact, a power greater than human power, I thought, "Well, that's I have." I don't believe in an interventionalist diety either. However, I do believe that there is a power greater than the old me and I believe that power is somewhere inside me. That belief is based totally on faith. I don't in any way KNOW that I am going to be able to do the things I know I need to do in order to get better. I just have to BELIEVE I am going to be able to do them and trudge on through. When I pray, I most often have no clue what I am praying too, but I mostly pray for the willingness and courage to take the next right step. I do NOT ask for the next right step to be taken for me.
When I am in meetings, and the steps are read, I get to form my own meanings from them. Everyone does. (Although there will be some who try to tell you differently.) For instance, 2) Came to believe that a power greater than the self I currently know can restore me to sanity, or 3) Made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the person I know I can be if I can get through all the cr@p, get honest, and walk through the fear. I typically don't read those aloud except to my sponsor, but I do get a chance to share how I apply those steps to my life and the general idea comes out then.
I'm worried that this is all just coming off as another obnoxious push for AA again, and I don't want to do that, so I am just going to stop there. I don't know if any of that made any sense to you, but I do know it helped me. It is always good when I am forced to really examine my program, my self, and my beliefs.
Now, there's a good thunderstorm rolling in and I don't want to miss it! Hope you are hangin' in there!
It is really very simple. When you posted about believing in an unknown ultimate reality and, in fact, a power greater than human power, I thought, "Well, that's I have." I don't believe in an interventionalist diety either. However, I do believe that there is a power greater than the old me and I believe that power is somewhere inside me. That belief is based totally on faith. I don't in any way KNOW that I am going to be able to do the things I know I need to do in order to get better. I just have to BELIEVE I am going to be able to do them and trudge on through. When I pray, I most often have no clue what I am praying too, but I mostly pray for the willingness and courage to take the next right step. I do NOT ask for the next right step to be taken for me.
When I am in meetings, and the steps are read, I get to form my own meanings from them. Everyone does. (Although there will be some who try to tell you differently.) For instance, 2) Came to believe that a power greater than the self I currently know can restore me to sanity, or 3) Made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the person I know I can be if I can get through all the cr@p, get honest, and walk through the fear. I typically don't read those aloud except to my sponsor, but I do get a chance to share how I apply those steps to my life and the general idea comes out then.
I'm worried that this is all just coming off as another obnoxious push for AA again, and I don't want to do that, so I am just going to stop there. I don't know if any of that made any sense to you, but I do know it helped me. It is always good when I am forced to really examine my program, my self, and my beliefs.
Now, there's a good thunderstorm rolling in and I don't want to miss it! Hope you are hangin' in there!
Knucklehead
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by Music
Hey knob, I'm not taking any offense. Here's the thing though. If you read over my last couple posts, I suggested that you find your own thing to believe in and use it. If that be "ultimate reality" then use it but stop sitting in your sh*t and reading stuff into things that are told to you to justify your position. Chapter 3 in the Big Book is "More about Alcoholism." It's dealing with the FIST STEP and the fact that I tried so many things to control my drinking and that I'm powerless over that first drink and that drinking causes unmanagability in my life. Sure God is mentioned. AA is structured around the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes from the Bible. That doesn't make AA religious, it just gives AA structure. People talk about God because that's what they believe. They don't talk about "one" God, or a Christian God necessarily, unless that's what they believe. People in AA use whatever concept of a Higher Power they choose. So can you and if the AAs you deal with don't like your conception, that's on them, not you. Unless of course, you want to take it on as a way of not going to AA to get sober. Then of course, there are other methods you can try. Just do me a favor and quit whinning because things don't fit you exactly. NEWS FLASH my friend. Nothing in life fits exactly. That's why tolerance is part of the main game.
DK
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5,093
Simply put, if you are watching someone suffer in pain and misery and you know how to relieve their pain, it is human nature to try to do just that, relieve their pain in the same way that your pain was relieved.
Let's say your feet hurt and I have the most comfortable shoes that would cure any bunyan, arch support or corn problem. I come to you and say, wear these lace up shoes and they will cure your foot problem. You look at them and say, oh no, I only where slip ons. I'm thinking, laces, slips ons, what's the difference as long as it cures your foot problem?
Simplistic, I know, but we tend to push what we know and what has worked for us. You are entitled to your personal beliefs. We choose our own paths in life, sometimes making a wrong turn here and there, but hey...such is life for all of us.
We are strong in our beliefs, not wavering one way or another. That could be a good thing, or that could be a bad thing. Who am I to say really? What ever works for you. I just wish you much happiness and a life without bunyans.
Let's say your feet hurt and I have the most comfortable shoes that would cure any bunyan, arch support or corn problem. I come to you and say, wear these lace up shoes and they will cure your foot problem. You look at them and say, oh no, I only where slip ons. I'm thinking, laces, slips ons, what's the difference as long as it cures your foot problem?
Simplistic, I know, but we tend to push what we know and what has worked for us. You are entitled to your personal beliefs. We choose our own paths in life, sometimes making a wrong turn here and there, but hey...such is life for all of us.
We are strong in our beliefs, not wavering one way or another. That could be a good thing, or that could be a bad thing. Who am I to say really? What ever works for you. I just wish you much happiness and a life without bunyans.
Knucklehead
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by lulu70
I actually owe you an apology, DK. I had some of my own personal sh!t going on last night when I posted my reply and over-reacted a bit. I also looked back over the thread and realized my post about not being willing to believe was really not what I had intended to say. There may not be any way to fix it, but I am going to try. Hopefully I won't just mess it all up worse.
It is really very simple. When you posted about believing in an unknown ultimate reality and, in fact, a power greater than human power, I thought, "Well, that's I have." I don't believe in an interventionalist diety either. However, I do believe that there is a power greater than the old me and I believe that power is somewhere inside me. That belief is based totally on faith. I don't in any way KNOW that I am going to be able to do the things I know I need to do in order to get better. I just have to BELIEVE I am going to be able to do them and trudge on through. When I pray, I most often have no clue what I am praying too, but I mostly pray for the willingness and courage to take the next right step. I do NOT ask for the next right step to be taken for me.
When I am in meetings, and the steps are read, I get to form my own meanings from them. Everyone does. (Although there will be some who try to tell you differently.) For instance, 2) Came to believe that a power greater than the self I currently know can restore me to sanity, or 3) Made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the person I know I can be if I can get through all the cr@p, get honest, and walk through the fear. I typically don't read those aloud except to my sponsor, but I do get a chance to share how I apply those steps to my life and the general idea comes out then.
I'm worried that this is all just coming off as another obnoxious push for AA again, and I don't want to do that, so I am just going to stop there. I don't know if any of that made any sense to you, but I do know it helped me. It is always good when I am forced to really examine my program, my self, and my beliefs.
Now, there's a good thunderstorm rolling in and I don't want to miss it! Hope you are hangin' in there!
It is really very simple. When you posted about believing in an unknown ultimate reality and, in fact, a power greater than human power, I thought, "Well, that's I have." I don't believe in an interventionalist diety either. However, I do believe that there is a power greater than the old me and I believe that power is somewhere inside me. That belief is based totally on faith. I don't in any way KNOW that I am going to be able to do the things I know I need to do in order to get better. I just have to BELIEVE I am going to be able to do them and trudge on through. When I pray, I most often have no clue what I am praying too, but I mostly pray for the willingness and courage to take the next right step. I do NOT ask for the next right step to be taken for me.
When I am in meetings, and the steps are read, I get to form my own meanings from them. Everyone does. (Although there will be some who try to tell you differently.) For instance, 2) Came to believe that a power greater than the self I currently know can restore me to sanity, or 3) Made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the person I know I can be if I can get through all the cr@p, get honest, and walk through the fear. I typically don't read those aloud except to my sponsor, but I do get a chance to share how I apply those steps to my life and the general idea comes out then.
I'm worried that this is all just coming off as another obnoxious push for AA again, and I don't want to do that, so I am just going to stop there. I don't know if any of that made any sense to you, but I do know it helped me. It is always good when I am forced to really examine my program, my self, and my beliefs.
Now, there's a good thunderstorm rolling in and I don't want to miss it! Hope you are hangin' in there!
DK
Knucklehead
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by 2dayzmuse
Simply put, if you are watching someone suffer in pain and misery and you know how to relieve their pain, it is human nature to try to do just that, relieve their pain in the same way that your pain was relieved.
Let's say your feet hurt and I have the most comfortable shoes that would cure any bunyan, arch support or corn problem. I come to you and say, wear these lace up shoes and they will cure your foot problem. You look at them and say, oh no, I only where slip ons. I'm thinking, laces, slips ons, what's the difference as long as it cures your foot problem?
Simplistic, I know, but we tend to push what we know and what has worked for us. You are entitled to your personal beliefs. We choose our own paths in life, sometimes making a wrong turn here and there, but hey...such is life for all of us.
We are strong in our beliefs, not wavering one way or another. That could be a good thing, or that could be a bad thing. Who am I to say really? What ever works for you. I just wish you much happiness and a life without bunyans.
Let's say your feet hurt and I have the most comfortable shoes that would cure any bunyan, arch support or corn problem. I come to you and say, wear these lace up shoes and they will cure your foot problem. You look at them and say, oh no, I only where slip ons. I'm thinking, laces, slips ons, what's the difference as long as it cures your foot problem?
Simplistic, I know, but we tend to push what we know and what has worked for us. You are entitled to your personal beliefs. We choose our own paths in life, sometimes making a wrong turn here and there, but hey...such is life for all of us.
We are strong in our beliefs, not wavering one way or another. That could be a good thing, or that could be a bad thing. Who am I to say really? What ever works for you. I just wish you much happiness and a life without bunyans.
DK
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Littletown, OK
Posts: 81
Hey Paul,
This has been an interesting thread.
I can relate to your query and concerns. For my own reasons, I've installed a mental "shredder", for lack of a better analogy. Everyone has their garbage and sometimes they toss it out, right along with the good stuff. My idea of trash can be radically different from others. So, I sit and listen. Sometimes attentively, sometimes on a "scan" mode. If I feel it lacks, zoom...off to the shredder.
I hear a bunch of stuff in my groups. It's not my job to convince anyone of anything and no one is really going to make me do anything, believe what they believe, say what they say...yada, yada. Blah, blah, blah.
But in all that...sometimes...there's something that pops out at me and I think, "yep, that's a keeper."
I can distill my basic issue to poor coping and communication skills. I'm learning better skills. That's just me. Doesn't apply to anyone else. How or where I learn those skills also doesn't matter. My values and belief systems play a role, I do my own sorting and yep, some things go in the shredder 'cause they're no longer useful. Substances are part of my garbage, so, out they go.
It's a process and it's ongoing. No lucky rabbit's feet, lace-up shoes or odor eaters required.
Find whatever works for you and do that.
Ki
This has been an interesting thread.
I can relate to your query and concerns. For my own reasons, I've installed a mental "shredder", for lack of a better analogy. Everyone has their garbage and sometimes they toss it out, right along with the good stuff. My idea of trash can be radically different from others. So, I sit and listen. Sometimes attentively, sometimes on a "scan" mode. If I feel it lacks, zoom...off to the shredder.
I hear a bunch of stuff in my groups. It's not my job to convince anyone of anything and no one is really going to make me do anything, believe what they believe, say what they say...yada, yada. Blah, blah, blah.
But in all that...sometimes...there's something that pops out at me and I think, "yep, that's a keeper."
I can distill my basic issue to poor coping and communication skills. I'm learning better skills. That's just me. Doesn't apply to anyone else. How or where I learn those skills also doesn't matter. My values and belief systems play a role, I do my own sorting and yep, some things go in the shredder 'cause they're no longer useful. Substances are part of my garbage, so, out they go.
It's a process and it's ongoing. No lucky rabbit's feet, lace-up shoes or odor eaters required.
Find whatever works for you and do that.
Ki
Knucklehead
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Day 2. I did get the damage I did to my neck and back when I head-butted the door last week taken care of. I've been doing that kinda stuff to myself since I was a kid. 
I hope I can snap out of feeling so depressed and hopeless. It's too nice of a day to feel like this. I started off OK yesterday, but I think working last night in a constant state of anxiety really got me down on myself. Basically, I can't think under any kind of stress. I panic and my mind shuts down. And my OCD makes me really slow, always checking everything and trying to make things more perfect than is realistic or necessary. It really limits what I can do for work, and I hate myself for not being able to do what others do so easily. I feel worthless.
DK
I hope I can snap out of feeling so depressed and hopeless. It's too nice of a day to feel like this. I started off OK yesterday, but I think working last night in a constant state of anxiety really got me down on myself. Basically, I can't think under any kind of stress. I panic and my mind shuts down. And my OCD makes me really slow, always checking everything and trying to make things more perfect than is realistic or necessary. It really limits what I can do for work, and I hate myself for not being able to do what others do so easily. I feel worthless.
DK
alcohol-kicked-my butt
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: oregon
Posts: 191
hey doorknob--
i always follow your threads with interest--you know i have ocd too--i dont have the compulsive part of checking things, but i have the obsessive component of obsessive thoughts; very scary thoughts that i cant let go of--had this ince i was a child--i take meds now and for the first time in my life my ocd is very low, very manageable--its a miracle to me because it was very debilitating--a big part of why i started drinking like i did was i discovered it helped my ocd--it made it so i didnt obsess--of course in the end yrs alcohol turned on me and made it worse--i know that it is kinda harder to quit qith ocd because you obsess about it even MORE i think than usual--i know i did--so after being a chronic relapser for a few yrs i went on antabuse--works wonderfully--i also do meetings and rr and prayer and family and friends in aa who help me--i am really pulling for you doorknob--you seem like a good person and i cant wait to see you succeed--take care all
Laura
i always follow your threads with interest--you know i have ocd too--i dont have the compulsive part of checking things, but i have the obsessive component of obsessive thoughts; very scary thoughts that i cant let go of--had this ince i was a child--i take meds now and for the first time in my life my ocd is very low, very manageable--its a miracle to me because it was very debilitating--a big part of why i started drinking like i did was i discovered it helped my ocd--it made it so i didnt obsess--of course in the end yrs alcohol turned on me and made it worse--i know that it is kinda harder to quit qith ocd because you obsess about it even MORE i think than usual--i know i did--so after being a chronic relapser for a few yrs i went on antabuse--works wonderfully--i also do meetings and rr and prayer and family and friends in aa who help me--i am really pulling for you doorknob--you seem like a good person and i cant wait to see you succeed--take care all
Laura
Not all better, getting better
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Beautiful Inner Banks of NC
Posts: 1,702
Originally Posted by Music
Hey knob, I'm not taking any offense. Here's the thing though. If you read over my last couple posts, I suggested that you find your own thing to believe in and use it. If that be "ultimate reality" then use it but stop sitting in your sh*t and reading stuff into things that are told to you to justify your position. Chapter 3 in the Big Book is "More about Alcoholism." It's dealing with the FIST STEP and the fact that I tried so many things to control my drinking and that I'm powerless over that first drink and that drinking causes unmanagability in my life. Sure God is mentioned. AA is structured around the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes from the Bible. That doesn't make AA religious, it just gives AA structure. People talk about God because that's what they believe. They don't talk about "one" God, or a Christian God necessarily, unless that's what they believe. People in AA use whatever concept of a Higher Power they choose. So can you and if the AAs you deal with don't like your conception, that's on them, not you. Unless of course, you want to take it on as a way of not going to AA to get sober. Then of course, there are other methods you can try. Just do me a favor and quit whinning because things don't fit you exactly. NEWS FLASH my friend. Nothing in life fits exactly. That's why tolerance is part of the main game.
DK, hang in there, wish I'd been around more for support lately, but I've been dealing with my own "issues". I guess maybe I should have been "dealing" with them here. Anyway, thanks to everyone here for a great thread, helpful as usual!! Take care all!!!
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