brigid

Quote:

This is how the term “dry drunk” came into being. When alcoholics appeared drunk because of stumbling and clumsiness, but had not been drinking, they were said to be “dry drunk.” They had the appearance of being intoxicated without drinking.

http://www.tlctx.com/ar_pages/paw_part1.htm (Thanks CarolD for the link)


IMO, it is not a term that should be used to describe the growth or maturity of a sober alcoholic. I personally find it offensive.

love brigid

best

Call me what ever you want.


Offensive behavior when not drinking (same behavior as when drinking)
I think "Dry Drunk" fit very well.
Offensive but truthful would have been just plan calling me an Ass.

Don S

But you'd be a sober ass!

best

hahahaahahaha

Sheryl85

I hope you will pardon my butting in, but I read the definition below and I just wanted to add that it’s not the only definition of the term “dry drunk”. This is the one that I grew up with in recovery, and the following is an excerpt of an article on the subject, which was too long to include in its entirety. Before then, I just want to add that personally, I make it a policy to never hang a label on any individual in (or out of) recovery. However, if I’m asked to work with an individual on a one to one basis and the situation warrants the discussion of such conditions that show signs of specific symptoms; I will bring it to their attention. In most cases I have found that the person themselves will recognize the similarities and then make the pronouncement themselves.
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Not Drinking, But Not 'Of Sober Mind' Either<o:p></o:p>

Unfortunately when many former drinkers go through the grieving process over the loss of their old friend, the bottle, some never get past the anger stage. <o:p></o:p>

It is a very real loss. The drink has been their friend for many years and one they could count on. When the whole world turned against them, the bottle never let them down. It was always there ready for the good times, the celebrations, the parties, as well as the sad, mad, and lonely times, too. <o:p></o:p>

Finally their old friend let them down... they got in trouble with the law, lost a job or career, almost lost their family, or the doctors told them they had to stop drinking... whatever the reason, the circumstances of their life brought them to the point where they made a decision to say "so long" to the bottle. <o:p></o:p>

Whether they realized it or not, they began the stages of grieving -- denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance -- the same stages most people go through when they have a great loss in their lives or have been told they have a terminal illness. <o:p></o:p>

First comes the denial -- it's really not that big a deal, I've always said I could quit anytime -- and then the anger and depression when they realize just how much that had come to depend on their old friend alcohol. <o:p></o:p>

Many make it through the process to the final stage -- accepting the loss, learning and growing through the experience, and moving on. <o:p></o:p>

Some never make it. It's sad to see them, sometimes many years later, still stuck in their anger, bitterness, and resentment at having to make the change in their lives. They haven't had a drink in years, but they have also never had a "sober" day. <o:p></o:p>

You even see them in the 12-step rooms... been in the program for years and years and their lives seem to be a constant unmanageable struggle. All those years and they have no more of a spiritual awakening than they did the first time they walked into the room. <o:p></o:p>

"Dry Drunk" has been described as "A condition of returning to one's old alcoholic thinking and behavior without actually having taken a drink." Or as one wise old drunk put it, if a horse thief goes into A.A. what you can end up with is a sober horse thief. Or a personal favorite: you can take the rum out of the fruit cake, but you've still got a fruit cake! <o:p></o:p>

Those who quit drinking but are still angry about it, wind up living miserable lives and usually make everyone else around them miserable too. If it has been said once in an Al-Anon meeting, it has been whispered thousands of times, "I almost wish he would go back to drinking." <o:p></o:p>

Okay, I Don't Like It, Now What?

To read the rest of the article, you can find it listed below.<o:p></o:p>

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/info/a/aa081397_p.htm

Thanks for letting me share...
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CarolD

There are many terms and slogons I never use...

Fake it till you make it...Dry Drunk.. Pity Party..We are all still sick...
Grab your ass and hold on... Stinkin Thinkin... Trudging...


I think that is why AA has so many...one size does not fit all!


Just to clarify...
Buddy T is not an alcoholic... he is Al anon with a great data base..

equus

I think of it as slang. It's not got any credibility as a real disorder - no recognition within WHO or DSM, but then how could it - it has no CLEAR criteria.

Slang can be explained and defined - there are lots of slang dictionaries, eventually it can enter a formal dictionary but that still does not give it credibility as a means to describe a person.

I dislike the term immensly. First of all it seems mostly used to describe another's behaviour. Second of all mostly the behaviour described is FAR from isolated to ex drinkers.

But most importantly to me it takes something positive 'dry' and turns it into an insult, it discredits effort:
Where is the acknowledgment that some keep drinking DESPITE the distruction around them or that there is a real difference between that and stopping? There is still REAL effort in making such a big life change. Actions DO speak louder than words and for whatever reason every single person addicted who quits CHOOSE with their actions to quit and put in the effort needed.

Not only that but how many people with severe drinking problems could claim they quit BEFORE their old freind let them down? How many out there could PROVE it wasn't in the face of pressure?

Of course it was but SO WHAT!! In life we have pressure and we make decisions and stopping drinking is a positive one that requires work.

So call someone an ass, a fool, arrogant, wrong, say they are being selfish if that's really what you need to do or feel is right. But when we start feeling a need to devalue an achievment that's evident and patronise the living hell out of someone by faking sympathy - in my book, something is very wrong with US.

I could be in a row to end all rows with my hubby - angry, nasty, out of order but to accuse him of being a dry drunk after his efforts to stop, I hope the words would choke me. Is that for him? Hell no! it's about me and my discipline to recognise him as whole and having achieved something REGARDLESS of not being perfect.

I think it's wrong and I would avoid places where it's acceptable without challenge - just as I would avoid places where racism is acceptable without challenge. Thankfully it is challenged at SR.

best

When a door say push but I pull, I still use effort. When I keep trying to pull, I see no positive effort come of it.

"I" was a dry drunk. I use it to discribe who "I" was. The statement fit me and gave others an instant understanding of how I discribed my actions.
If it was insulting towards me, so be it, as my actions were insulting towards others. Some thing need be called what they are. There is a time for being PC and there is a time for being direct and fully truthful. I think 10 years of me being a ass was longer then I should have been let get away with such. Maybe if people pointed out to me a few of my actions earlier on, I may not have remained an ass for so long.

Being called a discontent none drinker would not have the same impact on me as those who came up to me, face to face, and told me I was being an ass.
As I said, there is a point when enough was enough. I am thankful to those who told me who I was in the direct, truthful manner.

As for someone just starting out and learning what recovery is... ok maybe some kid gloves and a gentle way, but for someone who has been without alcohol intake for a few years... An ass is an ass and a dry drunk I feel is a more polite way of calling someone an ass.

I am not perfect but in no way am I as big an ass as I was a few short years ago.
Now there is some change that shows effort.

Don S

And that, ma'am, is one of the things we love about you.

equus

Me too Best!! But I guess that's why I don't think 'dry drunk' holds water. Perhaps if I heard it most often as people describing themselves I'd feel it has more credibility - I do think we can have insight of our own motives and can decide what they are - but not for others.

I suppose it's in this context I find it most objectionable. I can't imagine a less disciplined or more arrogance feeding way to think than to sit in ANY room 'seeing' thosee with no awakening, or concluding WHY their lives are a struggle. How the hell would I know? How do I know enough to go beyond behaviour? I can say someone seems uncomfortable and I can say they do this or that - but that's all. When I have the power to accurately access cause or motive perhaps I'll soften on using the language that describes it.

Until then I still find it objecctionable - but maybe should add when used towards others.

Best,

Just as a question. Hypothetically (yep I do mean that) if you came to think 'dry drunk' was an unhealthy way to describe people - would you change how you describe yourself? Not out of lack of truth - ass probably covers it (does in my case!!) but out of wanting harmful language to decline.

bahookie

"Perhaps if I heard it most often as people describing themselves I'd feel it has more credibility"

Thing is - when someone is exhibiting signs of dry drunk behaviour, they are very unlikely to have the self-awareness and honesty (even with themselves) to recognise it. Maybe that's why the label isn't self-applied. It falls to those around them, who are living with it, to try and make sense of it all.
Dry drunk is just a description and I know that, for me, it helps to read about it and understand I'm not alone.

Best, I just love your honest, straightforward posts!

Jane
xxx

equus

I understand that sentiment and you are NOT alone. Whatever you live with, you live with and I don't want to remove the validity of that. But there are occassions where something can 'feel' helpful and in the long run we discover it wasn't. I know there have been in my own life. If 'Dry Drunk' described something that was genuinely valid as a seperated group of behaviours it would be helpful but I've never seen it applied to behaviour outside of the 'normal' range.

I'd like to say I like all people - I'm working on it but it isn't true yet! Everything I have seen described as dry drunk I can recognise exists is those who have never been addicted - from self centredness to a habit of discontentment. There are unlikable behaviours and while intellectually I think it's wrong to turn that into unlikable people I can't claim any perfection in practice. Understanding does help in seperating thoughts about a person from thoughts about behaviour. However unless dry drunk ACCURATELY described a VALID subgroup of humanity with enough EVIDENCE to say they are DIFFERENT all my reading can only lead to further 'misunderstanding'.

I can see no validity in calling someone drunk (even preceded with the word dry) when they are blatantly not drunk and are doing things those who have never abused any substance also do.

Lastly - I've used labels here there and everywhere. Rightly and wrongly - I've had my concept of labelling challenged and that has proven PRICELESSLY helpful to me. It's nothing I haven't done myself but I still think it's wrong.

Oh and I agree - Best your posts rock with honesty!

bahookie

"I can see no validity in calling someone drunk (even preceded with the word dry) when they are blatantly not drunk and are doing things those who have never abused any substance also do."

ok I do get your point about labels, honestly!

Active addiction can cause someone to be dishonest, to steal, to be self-centred, blah blah... people who have never been addicted to anything can do all those things too, from losing their temper at a wrong look to being so defensive that they think the whole world is against them. Do you disagree with the word addict?

Words and phrases that gather meaning into neat little piles are cool - dry drunk does that, and if someone is acting the way they did when they were active, then dry drunk seems quite fitting, don't you think?

Anyway, I think I'm biased, because not only do I love my occasional dry drunk but I like all words too. With the exception of that c... one.

Jeeze, I seem to have woken up a bit argumentative today!

J
xxx

Music

Have any of us ever told another person, "that guy's acting like an a$$hole?" As soon as I hear that word, I draw a picture in my mind without having any further explanatioin. The same holds true with "dry drunk." Cuts out a lot of further explanation. So, if you don't like using the term, don't use it. If you don't like having the term used about you, don't act like it. If you just don't happen to like those "nasty old words that hurt your feelings," get over it. There's a lot worse things people can say about you.

Dan

Dry drunk falls into the not nice words category of the book of recovery, I feel.
I prefer moistly sober.

Seriously, to me anyway, the words dry drunk served a purpose.
But pity the fool who ever uses them to describe me, in my presence, when I'm less than content with my behavior to begin with

Spoken like the dry sober you are, pal

equus

No but I hate the 'walks like a duck' method of diagnosis!! The clinical criteria for alcohol dependency and abuse includes FAR more than the above. This is because you are RIGHT to say most people exhibit those behaviours to some extent. In isolation they wouldn't show any person as belonging to a recognisable group.

Some people do challenge the label of addict - I did enough reading to satisfy myself it's valid. However a large portion of my satifaction came from understanding the process of diagnostic classification and the requirements in terms of evidence needed for a 'label' to enter the clinical realm. DSM and the WHO (World health org) are pretty damn tight on what they accept - not perfect but bloody good. I'm respectful of that and it ceratinly adds weight.

Hehehehe - and I would have said you give a beautiful exam,ple of fine debate as opposed to argument!! You go for it and don't look back!

bahookie

"moistly sober"

Love it

"If you don't like having the term used about you, don't act like it. "

Have to say I agree with that one. I didn't like being called a lazy-arsed messy slob, so I started doing the dishes at night. Ok, so they were still in the sink this morning, but progress, not perfection eh?

Equus, perhaps medical authorities have no need to classify dry drunk behaviours as they are mostly in evidence in the privacy of the home. I know one of the main irritations I've had is the public sunshine/private brooding storm.

I would stick to my point that it's just a phrase that describes a varied collection of recognisable stuff. Like a murder of crows or a giggle of schoolgirls. It's just not endorsed by anyone more important than me

J
xxx

Just thought - my son has recently discovered the joy of the oxymoron. They don't make sense but they don't have to.

equus

I deeply respect that you don't want to claim it has added validity. That's honest and I can't argue (or debate) with it.

I'm like you and love words, their meanings, use, definitions and ability for us to exchange ideas. But my attitudes towards words has changed over the years.

As an inner city kid we had what I called the 'P*ki shop' owned by Asians, in the school yard when someone was clumsy it was a 'Spac attack' (spastic), and I used them as descriptions without malice - I DON'T condemn myself for that. First I learned not everyone liked them but then they hadn't grown up where I did and that was just because they didn't realise all they were was a label. They were wrong to think I meant more by it and I knew that. Slowly I realised I had more in common with those who found the words unpleasant and I discovered those who LIKED them DID hold more meaning to them than just a label. I suppose I chose my camp and stopped using them. That's a long way off challenging someone elses use.

Later I realised more about the impact of words on attitudes and I became PC - NOT politically correct but a Personal Contributor, accountable for what my words contributed to.

Years later still I was convinced by someone I respect that it's important for words, heart, and actions to be in one straight line. Words began to matter even more to me because how can I say what I mean if I don't know what I'm saying means?

The more I understand the relationship between words and attitude the more I feel they matter. I'm still PC - a Personal Contributor my contribution here is to say why I feel 'dry drunk' is harmful and unvalid.

What I'm not doing is suggesting everyone who uses the term is harmful and unvalid. There is a difference.

Does that make sense?

Little Missy

When I was a dry drunk, I was not growing or maturing!! I was full of anger, self pity, resentments, etc. Life was all about me, me, me. What I could get and what I deserved. Everything was never enough!! Same alcoholic behavior, just minus the alcohol!! I wasn't happy and I still made everyone around me miserable.

Thanks to my program of recovery, I have learned things about myself. I now am growing and maturing. I can see the good in things instead of always the bad. I am now at peace!!

I'm sure, at the time I was a dry drunk, if someone called me one, I would have WENT OFF!! I would have been very offended. At the time, I didn't know it wasn't just about not drinking. I didn't know I had other things to work on.

When we know better, we can do better. Thankfully, people have showed me the way!!
Love,
Missy

bahookie

...but those are offensive words that were used to describe what someone is, not how they are behaving.
I have a choice to be utterly awful or obnoxious, and if I am I can't object to someone telling me I am. (Right, ok, sometimes I do).
In what way would telling me that be harmful? Sometimes I deserve to be called on my behaviour.

I can object to someone calling me Jock!

j