ASH

Hi Brigid,
Thanks for starting this post. I have to agree with you here that applying the word "drunk" in any way to anyone who has invested significant time and energy into not drinking is a bit offensive. I have seen so many posts as SR that refer to addicts and alcoholics bad behavior as if we had a corner on the market

I am not an addiction expert, (except on my own), but I would like to admit to everyone here that there are times when I am behaving badly and it is not because of my alcoholic background and mind, it is just, well, bad behavior that needs to be arrested. As for having a corner on the market, I have friends, relatives, acquaintances and business associates who don't drink that I believe give me a good run for my money in the selfish and bad behavior dept. on occasion but I dont think I should be calling them dry drunk or attaching any other label. So, I believe you are right Brigid, personal growth is a journey not restricted or better put reserved for recovering alcoholics.

As someone said earlier in this thread the term also smacks of taking someone else's inventory. I guess it might be safe to say generally a person using the term on someone else would not consider themselves a dry drunk, and might also be considering themselves superior in terms of personal growth. Now could that be incorrect thinking?

Little Missy

There's a lady that goes to meeting where I go. She always says, My name is ... and I'm a recovering alcoholic. She never just calls herself an alcoholic.

Pick-a-name

Thank you Michael for your thoughtful response. What you are doing seems to be working for you; and I am very glad it is. I guess I assumed there were times when you had not ingested, that the craving and nagging thought might become a problem. I see from what you said, my assumption was wrong.

Continued success to you!

Pick-a-name

My son would call those behaviors displayed by anyone "alcoholic thinking"; are they the same (as a dry drunk) and any objections to the use of that term? Just curious.

fuguestate

I was a bit surprised how this thread turned out after reading the link from the first post. I thought people might talk about the PAW symptoms. The story of Jan rang very true for me:
For an alcoholic named Jan this created a problem in AA. “I have trouble presenting my story at AA,” she said. “I have trouble remembering events that happened before my drinking days, let alone things that happened while I was drinking. So to put my life in story form is hard for me. I don’t remember all of my story. I do remember that some things occurred, but I get confused about when they happened. Many times I can remember things when I am alone with no pressure that I can’t remember under the stress I feel when I talk at meetings.”

This memory problem is the biggest bane of my life. I have an atrocious memory now. I can barely remember my life pre-drinking, and my memory problems continued after I stopped. I can never remember what I do or what I say. As a lecturer, that causes me a lot of grief publicly(can't remember what the project students are doing, can't remember my lecture, can't remember what I said in a meeting).

Five

Hmm. I believe I am a 6 foot supermodel, but evidence proves I am not.

Apply that reasoning to negative beliefs Minnie! Classic CBT.

Cathy31

Minnie, I really like your thinking! You're sounding great!

Cathy31
x

minnie

Thanks Cathy - it's been a long old slog, with some very painful lessons learned, but I do believe I'm getting there. And I think that comment about the ineffective coping behaviours applies equally to active drinkers as to non-drinkers (alcoholic or not). It's not black and white and "labelable", although many of us have somehow learned that pattern of thinking.

And Five - you know that was a tongue in cheek comment, but I do think there is a grain of truth in there somewhere. I have believed all sorts of things about myself, good and bad, and many of those thoughts have not stood up to scrutiny. And yes, I apply some CBT techniques every day. I am such a magpie!

brigid

When I read "alcoholic thinking" I think of all thoughts that are generated by a need for alcohol. Stuff like "I have not had a drink in **** long, I deserve a drink", "I should drink to make sure that he is not alone drinking here", "That nagging is enough to make a sane person crazy, I need a drink". And all the thinking and plotting to have another drink and enough to drink. The thinking that I could moderate, that I could control my alcohol intake.

Whereas "dry drunk" I think of as more of a developmental stage. I have taught teenagers and I see the same sort of lack of acceptance of responsibility and disregard for authority of any kind. The constant arguments challenging everything seem to be part of a "growing into maturity" stage. Some teenagers challenge authority forever, others a little bit only, but it is great to see them blossom when they accept responsibility for themselves and stop blaming the rest of the world. That they question authority is a good thing, in my mind they are ensuring that something is correct before blind acceptance.

My initial reaction when I started seeing these behaviours in alcoholics was that as a group of people there were a lot of "overgrown teenagers" here, of which I was one. Then looking outside the realm of alcoholics ... there are a lot of people in life who are still not through this stage yet either ... so I am in the real world after all.

I don't have any objection to the term "alcoholic thinking" because I don't find it negative in describing my recovery at all, it identifies a way my thinking can be influenced by alcohol. But "dry drunk" just has negative connotations for me, it assumes I should be somewhere in recovery that I am not at yet and that there is something less than great about my recovery so far.

love brigid

brigid

My experience with teaching students and memory indicates to me that there is more than just one facet here. There are all the other issues that a student is dealing with in life that makes their mind tick in other areas to the one at hand. Like they have "something else on their minds". I have also found memory is influenced by diet, exercise, sleep, stress and other health concerns.

I have some short term memory loss I am sure of it. But I know sometimes I just have my head concentrating on things other than that at hand. My observations of thinking as we age is that we tend to start generalising things from knowing the details of how things work. We think on different levels as we gain more experience. I know this makes me go into a different world of thought sometimes and I am not paying attention to all the here and now details. Particularly of things that I already have studied.

BTW, I have had lots of lecturers who seem to forget the details of things. The best lecturers just find ways of triggering their memory and are aware of the "problem". One lecturer in particular is a great fan of coffee, I am sure he never has had an alcohol problem. I wish I knew what he knew, there is so much detail in there and he is now on a level quite beyond most students. I think his head is in a space quite different to where the students are and easily forgets things on that level. I have also seen him work on other areas and the memory seems fine in things that are directly interesting/challenging him at that time.

I have found repeating something in my head afterwards helpful, mentally making myself take note and then checking myself by repeating the note at a later time.

love brigid

Pick-a-name

MY mind is a little whifty today, so please ignore this if we are saying the same thing. Actually, the "overgrown teenager" mindset is exactly what I am refering to when I say "alcoholic thinking"..the "me,me,me-center-or everthing" kind of thinking, though not conscious; wether alcohol is in the mix or not. (Actually, if you look at the examples you used, ultimately aren't they SELF protecting...excuses you make to yourself to "justify" what you want to do , to yourself? Happens in the manipulation of other parts of an active a's life,too. One of those habits that needs unlearned ie 12th step)

I guess I would have to describe it at thinking that becomes more and more isolated and self-centered and directed. Like in a teenager.

JMO; thanks for your thoughts!

Taiman

I have never been a fan of the term dry drunk. I would agree Brigid that it may be applied to someone who is sober but appears drunk i.e. stumbling, slurring their speech etc. However I have never seen.

I think the term dry drunk is offensive and judgemental. I have found many people in AA who will use this term to describe anyone had alcohol problems is now sober but does not attend AA. Personally I think it is hooey. I have found many sober asses in AA who sit on their high horse and judge other people. Many of the ones I have met will lie, cheat, and steal as long as they think another AA member isn't looking. Do I say they are a dry drunk? No as Don says they are just a sober ass. The world is full of asses.

Music

Interesting judgment on your part!! Dry drunk applies to someone who has done nothing but stop drinking and displays the same character defects and anti-social behavior. Just my observation!!

The only positive thing I can think of to say about someone in this condition is that it's always better to be "dry" than "wet." I might be able to get through to a dry drunk but I've never had any luck with a wet one.

Peter

Hmmmm....lemmee see here.......it's NOT ok to call someone a "dry drunk" but it's okay to call 'em an ass...alrightythen.

Methinks this thread has run out of options.

Five

A dry drunk
Is a punk
Took a chunk
Of Gunk
Rolled it in a ball
And slammed dunked.

garbage.

Five

Beliefs can be disproven. Such as "I believe Bob Dylan is a muslim"

One look through a dylan biography will prove me wrong.

"I am a peace of crap"...etc.

Five

Dry Drunk? Stick it up your Ass!

Music

Well Peter, I'm going to have to agree with you assessment. No more options.

Cathy31

Gawd Maud, Five !!!

Five

Gaud Mawd?