I want to be a moderation drinker
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by winelover
I have a different attitude so hopefully that changes the result of my trying this time.
Change the thinking.
Chances are the behavior will follow with.
The key is action.
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Originally Posted by winelover
I had a shouting match with the kids shortly aftey got home and guess what my first thought was? Quick! grab a drink and calm down! I sat on the floor and cried but didn't have a drink. I read somewhere (probably here at SR) about passing the time during the "urge". I can't remember what it said, but I guess crying worked then. It didn't even last too long. I hope I can find some more interesting ways of coping during those times. Of course this crazed feeling makes me think my hope of moderating is less likely. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if I can break the cycle of thinking "bad thing happens - drink, celebration - drink, watching TV - drink, working on the computer - drink".
I'm almost through my day. Yeah!
I'm almost through my day. Yeah!
Go on Wine lover!!!
This warms my heart to read this sort of stuff.
There is other tools that some use, SMART, AA, and therapy.
Just remember that support at SR is here, always here, for you.
We are all in this together - thats the way I see it.
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 872
From the chapter "More About Alcoholism" -- I thought this fit the thread:
Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is
astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or
death.
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals -- usually brief --
were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable
period we get worse, never better.
We are like men who have lost their legs; they never
grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy. In some instances there has been brief recovery,
followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing a making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't
done so yet.
From the book "Alcoholics Anonymous."
Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is
astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or
death.
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals -- usually brief --
were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable
period we get worse, never better.
We are like men who have lost their legs; they never
grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy. In some instances there has been brief recovery,
followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing a making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't
done so yet.
From the book "Alcoholics Anonymous."
body ~ mind ~ spirit
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
Posts: 582
Originally Posted by NoMoBeer
From the chapter "More About Alcoholism" -- I thought this fit the thread:
Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is
astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or
death.
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals -- usually brief --
were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable
period we get worse, never better.
We are like men who have lost their legs; they never
grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy. In some instances there has been brief recovery,
followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing a making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't
done so yet.
From the book "Alcoholics Anonymous."
Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is
astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or
death.
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals -- usually brief --
were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable
period we get worse, never better.
We are like men who have lost their legs; they never
grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy. In some instances there has been brief recovery,
followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing a making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't
done so yet.
From the book "Alcoholics Anonymous."
The Big Book is online: http://www.sobermusicians.com/literature/bigbook.html , if anyone wants to read more.
love brigid
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Thread Starter
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Posts: 1,406
Well now you've depressed me. I've been so happy with myself these past few days (3 1/2 to be exact). I've been so encouraged that I can resist the urge to drink when it hits me so often and sometimes really hard. I've even told myself that maybe I don't need to wait the full 30 days to prove anything, I've already proven it. Fortunately, I'm not falling for that self talk. I still want to wait a month, but then, I don't know. How can you ever know that you are one that will never be normal? The Moderation Management approach seems workable. I guess the big unknown is whether you fall into the category of "problem drinker/alcohol abuser" or "alcoholic". That remains my question and my quest.
Here is a short passage from the Moderation Management site that is giving me hope.
Behaviors can be changed. MM agrees with many professionals and researchers in the field that alcohol abuse, versus dependence, is a learned behavior (habit) for problem drinkers, and not a disease. This approach recognizes that people who drink too much can suffer from varying degrees of alcohol-related problems, ranging from mild to moderate to severe. A reasonable early option for problem drinkers is moderation. Seriously dependent drinkers will probably find a return to moderate drinking a great challenge, but the choice to accept that challenge remains theirs.
Moderation is a reasonable, practical, and attainable recovery goal for many problem drinkers. Outcome studies indicate that brief intervention programs are successful and cost effective.
I very much like relating to the people here at SR and I'm learning a lot about who I am, where I want to be, and how I might get there, but I'm afraid that I'm probably going to end up ruffling too many feathers with my views on the possibility of moderation among a group of recovering alcoholics. I'm not telling anyone that their approach is wrong for them and that they should try this. I just don't want to feel that I need to fit nicely into the approach that worked for someone else when this might work for me. I thought maybe someone would have experience with moderation. I've read posts by a few people in various threads that seem to indicate that they moderate.
Here's an example from the first post on the "What's the Deal with AA?" thread.
So why is this "disease" different? And I am not one bit convinced it is a disease. There's a big difference between willpower and cancer.
It seems to me that most people in AA have replaced an obsession/addiction to alcohol with the obsession of abstinence. In my book, any obsession leads to destructive behaviour. I have seen AA members preach to others about not drinking, and it is, frankly, kind of sickening. It's like having a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness come to your house and try to save your soul. Life is something that we each deal with on our own terms. Some are christians, some buddhists, some hindu, some agnostic (me - to a fault probably).
So anyway, sorry about the long post. If you read it, I would appreciate any comments.
Here is a short passage from the Moderation Management site that is giving me hope.
Behaviors can be changed. MM agrees with many professionals and researchers in the field that alcohol abuse, versus dependence, is a learned behavior (habit) for problem drinkers, and not a disease. This approach recognizes that people who drink too much can suffer from varying degrees of alcohol-related problems, ranging from mild to moderate to severe. A reasonable early option for problem drinkers is moderation. Seriously dependent drinkers will probably find a return to moderate drinking a great challenge, but the choice to accept that challenge remains theirs.
Moderation is a reasonable, practical, and attainable recovery goal for many problem drinkers. Outcome studies indicate that brief intervention programs are successful and cost effective.
I very much like relating to the people here at SR and I'm learning a lot about who I am, where I want to be, and how I might get there, but I'm afraid that I'm probably going to end up ruffling too many feathers with my views on the possibility of moderation among a group of recovering alcoholics. I'm not telling anyone that their approach is wrong for them and that they should try this. I just don't want to feel that I need to fit nicely into the approach that worked for someone else when this might work for me. I thought maybe someone would have experience with moderation. I've read posts by a few people in various threads that seem to indicate that they moderate.
Here's an example from the first post on the "What's the Deal with AA?" thread.
So why is this "disease" different? And I am not one bit convinced it is a disease. There's a big difference between willpower and cancer.
It seems to me that most people in AA have replaced an obsession/addiction to alcohol with the obsession of abstinence. In my book, any obsession leads to destructive behaviour. I have seen AA members preach to others about not drinking, and it is, frankly, kind of sickening. It's like having a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness come to your house and try to save your soul. Life is something that we each deal with on our own terms. Some are christians, some buddhists, some hindu, some agnostic (me - to a fault probably).
So anyway, sorry about the long post. If you read it, I would appreciate any comments.
Last edited by c'est la vie; 01-12-2006 at 05:09 AM. Reason: identify text from another source
United States of Fugue
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 32
winelover, i have returned to moderate drinking and have found no conflict here. No-one has jumped on me and told me that I am wrong, irresponsible or obviously never had an alcohol problem. Likewise I do not jump on other people's posts. Just be responsible with your words and never assume that because something works for you or another person that it will work for others. I fall into your first quote from the behaviourists. I am a cognitive psychologist but believe that only behavioural approaches are appropriate for dealing with psychological issues and long-term recovery.
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Posts: 1,406
I need to hear more from you. Is there a way to look at someone's behaviour and determine that they are abusing alcohol from a behaviour perspective or for clinical (disease) reasons? So many people at SR have referred to themselves or friends that have returned to drinking and only gotten worse or died. I wish there were a litmus test! I don't want to jump on anyone's bandwagon while I'm under-educated about myself, the interrelated issues, and the sometimes contradictory beliefs.
I'm not good at blind faith things. I really hope I'm not offending anyone who faithfully beieves in AA since that's not even close to my intention.
I'm not good at blind faith things. I really hope I'm not offending anyone who faithfully beieves in AA since that's not even close to my intention.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Originally Posted by winelover
I need to hear more from you. Is there a way to look at someone's behaviour and determine that they are abusing alcohol from a behaviour perspective or for clinical (disease) reasons? So many people at SR have referred to themselves or friends that have returned to drinking and only gotten worse or died. I wish there were a litmus test! I don't want to jump on anyone's bandwagon while I'm under-educated about myself, the interrelated issues, and the sometimes contradictory beliefs.
I'm not good at blind faith things. I really hope I'm not offending anyone who faithfully beieves in AA since that's not even close to my intention.
I'm not good at blind faith things. I really hope I'm not offending anyone who faithfully beieves in AA since that's not even close to my intention.
OK winelover, let's just say you make it those 30 days. It is now day 31, what ya gonna do? What is your lithmus test for moderate drinking? How many drinks per day? What percent alcohol? Will it be everyday, every other day, etc? What time of day? Will you still avoid social occasions? What "rules" will you set up for yourself to follow in order to affirm to yourself that you are drinking moderately? How many times will you allow yourself to break one of those rules and still consider yourself a moderate drinker? When will you think that you are indeed an alcoholic? What will your benchmark be? I am being very sincere here.
BTW, why 30 days? Why not 7 days? Why not 60 days? Is there something special about 30 days? If you feel you might be able to moderate your drinking, why not give it a go now?
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by winelover
I don't want to jump on anyone's bandwagon while I'm under-educated about myself, the interrelated issues, and the sometimes contradictory beliefs.
Search, question, learn, evaluate.
But don't drink for now. The litmus test is in your actions.
United States of Fugue
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 32
winelover, don't attach a period of time to your abstinence as being some kind of test. Time limits are arbitrary if all you are going to do is mark of the days. You should probably avoid alchohol for at LEAST the lenght of time it takes you to address the underlying issues, and then remain abstinent for a period of time after that. If you return to alcohol while these issues remain unresolved then you will quickly fall back into old comfortable patterns.
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
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If you can return to moderate drinking Winelover, I would think you lucky. What I wonder about when I read your posts is the obsession. Because if it was me, determining to moderate my drinking, I'd be thinking about often, maybe a lot, maybe all the time. I'd be thinking, well if I can hold off till tomorrow - that's my day to drink, or I really want a drink now, but 6PM is my time to drink. That kind of thing filled my brain and I absolutely hated it. It's now a non-issue in my life and I can think about things that are far more interesting.
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 872
I tried desperately to follow the guidelines of Moderation Management... I look back now and realize it was my disease talking to me. It still to this day can tell me...."You are just like everyone else, you can certainly moderate your beer intake... it's just beer..." If I chose to listen to it, I may end up like Audrey Kishline, the founder of Moderation Management -- she ended up killing 2 people while she was driving drunk back in 2000, see here... http://www.peele.net/debate/kishline.dui.3.html
winelover, you're going to do what you want to do, no matter what anyone on this board says. I can see your OBSESSION in your posts (see my quote from the big book in an earlier post). I appreciate where you are coming from. I could have chosen the name "beerlover..." because I was. I LOVED beer -- everything about it. I brewed beer, I read beer magazines, I drank because I was a sophisticated beer drinker.. I drank all different types of beers from all over the world ... I knew which beer went with what food.... in the last couple of years before I got sober none of that mattered -- I drank Budweiser -- Bud Light if I was feeling healthy. If that ran out I drank Tequila, Vodka, whatever was under the counter. I just drank. I realized that drinking was KILLING ME! I tried and tried to moderate -- I made all the deals with myself on moderating and quitting for short periods of time. I even went to AA -- but I decided just like in your quote that it was a cult or obsession -- I looked for all the DIFFERENCES I had with these folks...
Today -- I'm sober 443 days, ONE DAY AT A TIME. I went to AA and looked for the SIMILARITIES I shared with these folks. I am a sales executive... but I hang out and talk with bikers, cowboys, doctors, housewives, etc. We are all different, but we share one thing -- we are alcoholics. We drink differently than other people. But the drinking was just a symptom of our disease.... so in the rooms, throught the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and with a sponsor, I learn how to LIVE LIFE SOBER... today I don't obsess about how many beers I can have or when I should quit or any of that crap. It's not about drinking! I have learned to live and think in a way which allows me to show up for life, do the next right thing -- whatever that may be... and be satisfied with that. For this I am totally grateful....
Please get help and get to work....
Ken
winelover, you're going to do what you want to do, no matter what anyone on this board says. I can see your OBSESSION in your posts (see my quote from the big book in an earlier post). I appreciate where you are coming from. I could have chosen the name "beerlover..." because I was. I LOVED beer -- everything about it. I brewed beer, I read beer magazines, I drank because I was a sophisticated beer drinker.. I drank all different types of beers from all over the world ... I knew which beer went with what food.... in the last couple of years before I got sober none of that mattered -- I drank Budweiser -- Bud Light if I was feeling healthy. If that ran out I drank Tequila, Vodka, whatever was under the counter. I just drank. I realized that drinking was KILLING ME! I tried and tried to moderate -- I made all the deals with myself on moderating and quitting for short periods of time. I even went to AA -- but I decided just like in your quote that it was a cult or obsession -- I looked for all the DIFFERENCES I had with these folks...
Today -- I'm sober 443 days, ONE DAY AT A TIME. I went to AA and looked for the SIMILARITIES I shared with these folks. I am a sales executive... but I hang out and talk with bikers, cowboys, doctors, housewives, etc. We are all different, but we share one thing -- we are alcoholics. We drink differently than other people. But the drinking was just a symptom of our disease.... so in the rooms, throught the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and with a sponsor, I learn how to LIVE LIFE SOBER... today I don't obsess about how many beers I can have or when I should quit or any of that crap. It's not about drinking! I have learned to live and think in a way which allows me to show up for life, do the next right thing -- whatever that may be... and be satisfied with that. For this I am totally grateful....
Please get help and get to work....
Ken
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by NoMoBeer
I can see your OBSESSION in your posts (see my quote from the big book in an earlier post).
I was the last one to realize just how consumed my mind was with alcohol.
And the darndest thing is that for me, I had to get and stay sober for a while before I could even begin to see just how much of my mental energy actually was devoted to drinking; getting it, hiding it, consuming it, missing it, cursing it, etc....
Living and Loving.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Saratoga, California
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Originally Posted by Dan
Great observation.
... how much of my mental energy actually was devoted to drinking; getting it, hiding it, consuming it, missing it, cursing it, etc....
... how much of my mental energy actually was devoted to drinking; getting it, hiding it, consuming it, missing it, cursing it, etc....
yep, yep, yep, yep, yep and Yep, etc...
I hope you get to the place where you can act in a positive way towards your alcohol issue and that your acceptance journey is a brief one.
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My God, you must all think I'm a completely insane, obsessive nut case. I've read every word you've written and it's causing tears to well up in my eyes. The maddening thing is that all the things you've pointed out are things that I do worry about, but hope it will just work out in the end. I don't want to be thought of as some freak who always thinks about alcohol. Unfortunately, it appears that I already am. But I'm not going to go have a drink now to get rid of my sadness.
Living and Loving.
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Location: Saratoga, California
Posts: 475
**{hugs winelover}}
Actually, we're all obsessive nutcases! Welcome to our exclusive club. 
It's a good decision on your part to not drink.
The wierd thing about my alcohol addiction is that for me, I used to beable to drink quite a bit before it would "hit" me. When alcohol truly began to get a deep hold upon me it was when it was after the first sip that I could feel it. Literally, after ONE sip I could feel it's "comfort" (poison) begin to work on me.
It really is a insideous thing... addiction... beguiling and alluring all the while it's poisoning and destroying you.
Originally Posted by winelover My God, you must all think I'm a completely insane, obsessive nut case.
It's a good decision on your part to not drink.
The wierd thing about my alcohol addiction is that for me, I used to beable to drink quite a bit before it would "hit" me. When alcohol truly began to get a deep hold upon me it was when it was after the first sip that I could feel it. Literally, after ONE sip I could feel it's "comfort" (poison) begin to work on me.
It really is a insideous thing... addiction... beguiling and alluring all the while it's poisoning and destroying you.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by winelover
My God, you must all think I'm a completely insane, obsessive nut case.
You just remind me of me, is all. So when I'm reminded of me, it brings out words from inside that describe how I lived, and how I live now.
It happens to a lot of us, getting emotional while reading our experiences in the words of others. It's normal.
It's called identifying. And it's sometimes scary.
The sadness you feel isn't without reason.
Saying goodbye to the bottle, temporarily or permanently, is a big deal.
It was for me.
Michael
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London England
Posts: 291
Winelover,
I have come to this discussion thread a little late but having read it from the start I have to say that IMO you are developing a fixation with moderation. In my experience this kind of fixation is not a good basis for a course of action. It is a little too like addictive behaviour where your every waking moment is consumed by the prospect of a future life of alcoholic moderation.
I have used rational recovery's web site to defeat what they call the addictive voice. I used their programme extensively in my early weeks and months of sobriety because I knew from bitter experience that I would fall to the addictive voices inside my head urging me to give moderation a try. This destructive self-delusion is a common feature of addictions but it can be defeated. Give the site a visit, you have nothing to lose excepth the addictive voice within.
Best wishes
Michael
I have come to this discussion thread a little late but having read it from the start I have to say that IMO you are developing a fixation with moderation. In my experience this kind of fixation is not a good basis for a course of action. It is a little too like addictive behaviour where your every waking moment is consumed by the prospect of a future life of alcoholic moderation.
I have used rational recovery's web site to defeat what they call the addictive voice. I used their programme extensively in my early weeks and months of sobriety because I knew from bitter experience that I would fall to the addictive voices inside my head urging me to give moderation a try. This destructive self-delusion is a common feature of addictions but it can be defeated. Give the site a visit, you have nothing to lose excepth the addictive voice within.
Best wishes
Michael
I'm trying.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: California
Posts: 3
I'm new here. If I had a nickel for every time I tried to be a moderation drinker, I'd be able to buy Bill Gates' house. I can't do it. I'm trying to accept that alcohol controls me; I cann't control it. As a person who is somewhat of a control freak, it's even harder to admit that than it was to admit that I'm an alcoholic. I know I'm an alcoholic; I just can't stand that it's out of my control.
So it's Day 1 for me. I love my husband more than anything in the world, and today he told me that my drinking is killing our marriage. I can't lose that. I tried quitting a few months ago, but he drinks and it makes me resentful. I guess I'm going to have to try to get over that.
So it's Day 1 for me. I love my husband more than anything in the world, and today he told me that my drinking is killing our marriage. I can't lose that. I tried quitting a few months ago, but he drinks and it makes me resentful. I guess I'm going to have to try to get over that.
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Location: Recoveryville, USA
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Hi Kiska,,,welcome!
Your post makes a lo of sense to me and Im not al alcoholic, just love one.
You CAN get sober, it IS not only possible, but probable, if you really want to work your tail end off for it.
Most folks I know, use AA, and it works,,,if YOU work it. Good luck and just know you are not alone...and never have to me....
Hugs
Your post makes a lo of sense to me and Im not al alcoholic, just love one.
You CAN get sober, it IS not only possible, but probable, if you really want to work your tail end off for it.
Most folks I know, use AA, and it works,,,if YOU work it. Good luck and just know you are not alone...and never have to me....
Hugs
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