Not sure what to do...can you help?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3
Not sure what to do...can you help?
Hi- this is my first time on this site, but I am not sure what to do. The nature of the problem lends itself to a certain level of discretion- so who can you talk to? (deep breath) Here goes- well my fiancee and alcohol has been somewhat of an issue for a few years always grumbling in the background. If we were to go out (which is not at all frequent- perhaps once a month) she would drink until intoxication. With it came a huge mood swing to a different personality - somewhat angry and snippy. She does not drink daily, but we do have some drinks on the weekend...split a bottle of wine on Fri, Sat, and sometimes sunday night. I don't really drink that often and could take it or leave it for the rest of my life. I grew up in a virtually alcohol free environment as my parents don't drink (my mom is even allergic!), nor do my brothers. This weekend I came downstairs into the garage and found her drinking from another bottle of wine hidden in a cabinet. She was very defensive and naturally was in denial. I was/am devastated. She tells me that when we have a bottle of wine, she would go downstairs to her secret stash and have an extra glass. This apparently has been going on for 6 months.
This has not been the first time this has happened. Over a year ago, I found her pouring an extra glass of wine as I would typically only have one glass. I told her that I was not happy with this and she stopped drinking completely for 3 months. In turn I stopped all together too for those months to support her. But now we are back to square one it seems. I told her when the first incident occurred that to me, that I felt so strongly about it that our direction towards marriage would be uncertain. When I hear stories of alcoholism, I feel like physical dependence is such a strong factor. However, I feel that her hiding bottles with the intent to deceive and drink is a sober-decision and is more of a trust issue than an alcohol-based decision. Am I wrong to think this way?
We havea had a lot of heart-felt discussions together and we will be seeing some professional therapist together in the coming weeks. She really just wants to keep drinking once she starts but doesn't really "feel" like having a drink on a daily basis. It is just during the weekends when we have wine with dinner, but I am not downplaying the potential hazzards here. Am I jerk to feel that I refuse to spend the rest of my life with someone who abuses alcohol? our relationship is so solid and loving otherwise....I love her and stand by her, but I am scared for our future as husband and wife.
Is this level of "abuse" curable? Can someone share their thoughts with me?
Thank you for reading...
This has not been the first time this has happened. Over a year ago, I found her pouring an extra glass of wine as I would typically only have one glass. I told her that I was not happy with this and she stopped drinking completely for 3 months. In turn I stopped all together too for those months to support her. But now we are back to square one it seems. I told her when the first incident occurred that to me, that I felt so strongly about it that our direction towards marriage would be uncertain. When I hear stories of alcoholism, I feel like physical dependence is such a strong factor. However, I feel that her hiding bottles with the intent to deceive and drink is a sober-decision and is more of a trust issue than an alcohol-based decision. Am I wrong to think this way?
We havea had a lot of heart-felt discussions together and we will be seeing some professional therapist together in the coming weeks. She really just wants to keep drinking once she starts but doesn't really "feel" like having a drink on a daily basis. It is just during the weekends when we have wine with dinner, but I am not downplaying the potential hazzards here. Am I jerk to feel that I refuse to spend the rest of my life with someone who abuses alcohol? our relationship is so solid and loving otherwise....I love her and stand by her, but I am scared for our future as husband and wife.
Is this level of "abuse" curable? Can someone share their thoughts with me?
Thank you for reading...
Michael
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London England
Posts: 291
I feel very wary of passing comment on an issue between a man and his fiancee, but I think that as you were brave enough to post here I should be brave enough to give the benefit of my experience. In my case it was my wife who tried for many years to get me to moderate my drinking. The problem was that once I had that first drink I would not listen to even the most reasonable requests. I was on a mission to drink and I did.
Like your fiancee I would go for a day or two without a drink but as I say once that first one hit the bloodstream my entire personality changed. I became slightly paranoid and definitely more argumentative. I would be garrulous and often bad mannered and unpleasant.
The problem is that, despite the knowledge of my behaviour in drink and my physical reaction to it, I would not consider abstention. The desire to drink is enormous and will easily outweigh considerations of social, work, and family life.
You say you are going for counselling and I think that that is where you will have the best opportunity to demonstrate and articulate your concerns. When alone with our partners we tend to disregard their concerns on these matters. However in the presence of an independant third party we are far more likely to take notice.
I hope the session goes well and that you are able to get across your views. I also hope that unlike me, and I am sure many other addicts, your fiancee takes full regard of these issues and is able to act on them.
Best wishes
Michael
PS Without wishing to worry you, the act of hiding drink is a big issue. In my case I hid drink to get around what I perceived as nagging attempts to interfere with my drinking.
Like your fiancee I would go for a day or two without a drink but as I say once that first one hit the bloodstream my entire personality changed. I became slightly paranoid and definitely more argumentative. I would be garrulous and often bad mannered and unpleasant.
The problem is that, despite the knowledge of my behaviour in drink and my physical reaction to it, I would not consider abstention. The desire to drink is enormous and will easily outweigh considerations of social, work, and family life.
You say you are going for counselling and I think that that is where you will have the best opportunity to demonstrate and articulate your concerns. When alone with our partners we tend to disregard their concerns on these matters. However in the presence of an independant third party we are far more likely to take notice.
I hope the session goes well and that you are able to get across your views. I also hope that unlike me, and I am sure many other addicts, your fiancee takes full regard of these issues and is able to act on them.
Best wishes
Michael
PS Without wishing to worry you, the act of hiding drink is a big issue. In my case I hid drink to get around what I perceived as nagging attempts to interfere with my drinking.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Hi, twilson, welcome to the forum.
I hid the amount I drank from my friends and loved ones because I knew I had a problem and because I did not want anybody "getting on my case" about how much I was drinking. It was not a trust issue.
You don't have to drink a lot or even drink everyday to be an alcoholic.
Although an occasional glass of wine is by no means an indication that the person has a drinking problem, hiding bottles in the garage is not normal behaviour and you have every right to be concerned.
Working with a counsellor is good but you will also have to be extremely honest with yourself and your fiance about about how much you are willing to risk in the relationship.
I hid the amount I drank from my friends and loved ones because I knew I had a problem and because I did not want anybody "getting on my case" about how much I was drinking. It was not a trust issue.
You don't have to drink a lot or even drink everyday to be an alcoholic.
Although an occasional glass of wine is by no means an indication that the person has a drinking problem, hiding bottles in the garage is not normal behaviour and you have every right to be concerned.
Working with a counsellor is good but you will also have to be extremely honest with yourself and your fiance about about how much you are willing to risk in the relationship.
body ~ mind ~ spirit
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
Posts: 582
Hi twilson,
Your fiance sounds like me, there is no way I could be a daily drinker but that doesn't mean that I am not an alcoholic. I protected my drinking from others who threatened it, that is alcoholic, not logical. I would sometimes listen to other peoples views or observations of me. Getting information on what is alcoholic and really looking at my drinking behaviour helped me. BUT as soon as I had a drink I would find a way to have more. Towards the end of my drinking I was really trying hard to control it and only have a few drinks but the effort this took was enormous and I really couldn't have continued this. For me it had to be a total quitting, no first drink, it really helped that my partner was supportive and we talked about it a lot. I tried to be as honest as I could with him and others, but this is difficult for an alcoholic, we protect our habit.
I have no idea what you will experience in the future, if your fiance does not stop, no doubt she will go the way of us, hurt people around her without realising it and continue to decieve in order to drink. But then again, she may find the strength to stop with support. It is a gamble.
love brigid
Your fiance sounds like me, there is no way I could be a daily drinker but that doesn't mean that I am not an alcoholic. I protected my drinking from others who threatened it, that is alcoholic, not logical. I would sometimes listen to other peoples views or observations of me. Getting information on what is alcoholic and really looking at my drinking behaviour helped me. BUT as soon as I had a drink I would find a way to have more. Towards the end of my drinking I was really trying hard to control it and only have a few drinks but the effort this took was enormous and I really couldn't have continued this. For me it had to be a total quitting, no first drink, it really helped that my partner was supportive and we talked about it a lot. I tried to be as honest as I could with him and others, but this is difficult for an alcoholic, we protect our habit.
I have no idea what you will experience in the future, if your fiance does not stop, no doubt she will go the way of us, hurt people around her without realising it and continue to decieve in order to drink. But then again, she may find the strength to stop with support. It is a gamble.
love brigid
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Welcome Wilson...
I suggest you get info on the disease of alcoholism.
"Under The Influence" and it's sequal "Beyond The Influence"
are carried by Amazon.
Keep in touch...
I suggest you get info on the disease of alcoholism.
"Under The Influence" and it's sequal "Beyond The Influence"
are carried by Amazon.
Keep in touch...
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3
Thank you everyone for responding and sharing your stories. It is soooo helpful to hear people who have "been there". I agree that I have much to read up on when it comes to alcoholism. I hope that therapy sessions might help us deal with the future, but for now, I know that I need to be here to support her in the present. I keep thinking about all the great things she has to offer and regardless of what happened, those things are still things I love about her. Thanks again for your support and understanding....you all are very special people!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 872
twilson...
Welcome to SR. If you have not already, check out the friends and family forum.
Also, find an Al Anon meeting in your area and check it out -- I'm sure you will relate to other folks there....
I cannot pass judgement on your fiancee's behavior... she is the only one who can admit she is an alcoholic and what to do about it. AA helps me to live sober on a daily basis.
Regarding her consumption, it's really not about how much we drink or how often we drink -- it's how we drink. I can only speak for myself, but when I would 'sneak' a 6 pack down before a party, or before anyone else noticed, and then 'drank the normal amount' after it... or when I counted the number of beers I had in the 'fridge to be sure I was stocked up for the night, I kind of figured that was NOT normal drinking behavior...
Hope you both find your way, and work through these issues...
Ken
Welcome to SR. If you have not already, check out the friends and family forum.
Also, find an Al Anon meeting in your area and check it out -- I'm sure you will relate to other folks there....
I cannot pass judgement on your fiancee's behavior... she is the only one who can admit she is an alcoholic and what to do about it. AA helps me to live sober on a daily basis.
Regarding her consumption, it's really not about how much we drink or how often we drink -- it's how we drink. I can only speak for myself, but when I would 'sneak' a 6 pack down before a party, or before anyone else noticed, and then 'drank the normal amount' after it... or when I counted the number of beers I had in the 'fridge to be sure I was stocked up for the night, I kind of figured that was NOT normal drinking behavior...
Hope you both find your way, and work through these issues...
Ken
alconaut
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Motor City
Posts: 729
On the flip side....
Welcome, twilson. While I certainly wouldn't rule out that she may be an alcoholic, it could be that she is a problem drinker.
Alcoholism is progressive, meaning it gets worse.
Do you think that maybe your attitude toward her having an "extra glass of wine" may be why she hides it? And maybe her personality change while drinking might be in response to your perception of how much is appropriate?
Keep posting - I'm curious to see how it goes with the counselor.
If she is an alcoholic, then kudos to you for you diligence and concern! That may just be why she hasn't gone off the deep end.
Here goes- well my fiancee and alcohol has been somewhat of an issue for a few years always grumbling in the background.
Over a year ago, I found her pouring an extra glass of wine as I would typically only have one glass. I told her that I was not happy with this and she stopped drinking completely for 3 months.
I told her when the first incident occurred that to me, that I felt so strongly about it that our direction towards marriage would be uncertain.
However, I feel that her hiding bottles with the intent to deceive and drink is a sober-decision and is more of a trust issue than an alcohol-based decision. Am I wrong to think this way?
It is just during the weekends when we have wine with dinner....
Alcoholism is progressive, meaning it gets worse.
Do you think that maybe your attitude toward her having an "extra glass of wine" may be why she hides it? And maybe her personality change while drinking might be in response to your perception of how much is appropriate?
Keep posting - I'm curious to see how it goes with the counselor.
If she is an alcoholic, then kudos to you for you diligence and concern! That may just be why she hasn't gone off the deep end.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
This is the DSM IV - TR entry for alcohol dependency, there's also alcohol abuse which is different. It may help to at least read through what a proffessional would use to diagnose.
Introduction:
Diagnostic Criteria for the most common mental disorders including: description, diagnosis, treatment, and research findings. This list is a shortened version (incomplete) of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), published by the American Psychiatric Association, Washington D.C., 1994, the main diagnostic reference of Mental Health professionals in the United States of America.
Diagnostic Criteria
Alcohol abuse: A destructive pattern of alcohol use, leading to significant social, occupational, or medical impairment.
Must have three (or more) of the following, occurring when the alcohol use was at its worst:
*Alcohol tolerance: Either need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve intoxication, or markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol.
*Alcohol withdrawal symptoms: Either (a) or (b).
(a) Two (or more) of the following, developing within several hours to a few days of reduction in heavy or prolonged alcohol use:
sweating or rapid pulse
increased hand tremor
insomnia
nausea or vomiting
physical agitation
anxiety
transient visual, tactile, or auditory hallucinations or illusions
grand mal seizures
(b) Alcohol is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.
*Alcohol was often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
*Persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use
*Great deal of time spent in using alcohol, or recovering from hangovers
*Important social, occupational, or recreational activities given up or reduced because of alcohol use.
*Continued alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been worsened by alcohol (e.g., continued drinking despite knowing that an ulcer was made worse by drinking alcohol)
Associated Features
Learning Problem
Dysarthria or Involuntary Movement
Depressed Mood
Somatic or Sexual Dysfunction
Addiction
Sexually Deviant Behavior
Dramatic or Erratic or Antisocial Personality
Differential Diagnosis
Some disorders display similar or sometimes even the same symptom. The clinician, therefore, in his diagnostic attempt has to differentiate against the following disorders which one needs to be ruled out to establish a precise diagnosis.
Nonpathologic alcohol use for recreational or medical purposes;
Repeated episodes of Alcohol Intoxication.
Diagnostic Criteria for the most common mental disorders including: description, diagnosis, treatment, and research findings. This list is a shortened version (incomplete) of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), published by the American Psychiatric Association, Washington D.C., 1994, the main diagnostic reference of Mental Health professionals in the United States of America.
Diagnostic Criteria
Alcohol abuse: A destructive pattern of alcohol use, leading to significant social, occupational, or medical impairment.
Must have three (or more) of the following, occurring when the alcohol use was at its worst:
*Alcohol tolerance: Either need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve intoxication, or markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol.
*Alcohol withdrawal symptoms: Either (a) or (b).
(a) Two (or more) of the following, developing within several hours to a few days of reduction in heavy or prolonged alcohol use:
sweating or rapid pulse
increased hand tremor
insomnia
nausea or vomiting
physical agitation
anxiety
transient visual, tactile, or auditory hallucinations or illusions
grand mal seizures
(b) Alcohol is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.
*Alcohol was often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
*Persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use
*Great deal of time spent in using alcohol, or recovering from hangovers
*Important social, occupational, or recreational activities given up or reduced because of alcohol use.
*Continued alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been worsened by alcohol (e.g., continued drinking despite knowing that an ulcer was made worse by drinking alcohol)
Associated Features
Learning Problem
Dysarthria or Involuntary Movement
Depressed Mood
Somatic or Sexual Dysfunction
Addiction
Sexually Deviant Behavior
Dramatic or Erratic or Antisocial Personality
Differential Diagnosis
Some disorders display similar or sometimes even the same symptom. The clinician, therefore, in his diagnostic attempt has to differentiate against the following disorders which one needs to be ruled out to establish a precise diagnosis.
Nonpathologic alcohol use for recreational or medical purposes;
Repeated episodes of Alcohol Intoxication.
Been there and done.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: West Coast North America
Posts: 269
I have been helped more by people being straight with me than by people being sensitive. So here goes:
1. Your fiance is an alcoholic like me. She needs to cut alcohol completely out of her life, as I do.
2. The drinking problem should be addressed before you get married. You don't want to be married to an incurable drunk if you can help it.
3. If she does not recognize the drinking as being a problem that needs to be addressed then she will probably not get well for a long long time.
1. Your fiance is an alcoholic like me. She needs to cut alcohol completely out of her life, as I do.
2. The drinking problem should be addressed before you get married. You don't want to be married to an incurable drunk if you can help it.
3. If she does not recognize the drinking as being a problem that needs to be addressed then she will probably not get well for a long long time.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 98
Hi Twislon and welcome to the forum. It sounds like your fiancee has a seriously problem with alcohol. A lot of people here will tell you to go to Al-Anon and try to rope you into the 12 step round-a-bout. However if I may make a suggestion, getting involved in Al-anon is dangerous. They will try to convince you, that you are sick and that you have a problem as well (not alcohol problem but mental/emotional/spiritual problem)
I am assuming you are a young guy with lots of prospects. All young guys have oodles of prospects even if they don't realize it. If you stay with this woman, statistically speaking you are in for oodles of trouble. AA's recovery rate is 4-6%. You will most likely have years of misery and problems and trouble. If you have children with her it will be even worse. Your life will be ruined and one big ball of misery, alcoholics who drink never get better, they only get worse. Whatever she is doing today, will be 10 times as bad in a few years. There are a ton of nice woman out there who you could get married to and live a nice life with, raise a family, have picnics, family barbeques, PTA meetings, wonderful moments of intimacy. If you marry the current one none of that will be possible. I know this isn't what you want to hear and it may sound harsh but leave, leave this women, she is trouble and will make you miserable for the rest of your life. I am sorry to say this but I feel as someone who knows alcoholism inside/out I should tell you the truth.
Best of luck
I am assuming you are a young guy with lots of prospects. All young guys have oodles of prospects even if they don't realize it. If you stay with this woman, statistically speaking you are in for oodles of trouble. AA's recovery rate is 4-6%. You will most likely have years of misery and problems and trouble. If you have children with her it will be even worse. Your life will be ruined and one big ball of misery, alcoholics who drink never get better, they only get worse. Whatever she is doing today, will be 10 times as bad in a few years. There are a ton of nice woman out there who you could get married to and live a nice life with, raise a family, have picnics, family barbeques, PTA meetings, wonderful moments of intimacy. If you marry the current one none of that will be possible. I know this isn't what you want to hear and it may sound harsh but leave, leave this women, she is trouble and will make you miserable for the rest of your life. I am sorry to say this but I feel as someone who knows alcoholism inside/out I should tell you the truth.
Best of luck
Last edited by Taiman; 11-30-2005 at 07:27 PM. Reason: typo
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 872
Taiman:
I have to take issue with your 12 step bashing. It does work for many people, me included. No one "roped me in" or held a gun to my head. I made a decision to give AA a shot. I found a sponsor -- a friend, if you will -- to help me work through the 12 steps. I am sober today. Sober, in the truest sense of the word -- not just "not drinking."
I would ask that you let people make their own decision without harshly criticizing the AA or Al Anon programs.
I truly believe that people need to find their own recovery program, I don't bash SMART, Rational Recovery or any other non--AA program -- I would expect that level of maturity from others on the SoberRecovery boards as well.
Ken
I have to take issue with your 12 step bashing. It does work for many people, me included. No one "roped me in" or held a gun to my head. I made a decision to give AA a shot. I found a sponsor -- a friend, if you will -- to help me work through the 12 steps. I am sober today. Sober, in the truest sense of the word -- not just "not drinking."
I would ask that you let people make their own decision without harshly criticizing the AA or Al Anon programs.
I truly believe that people need to find their own recovery program, I don't bash SMART, Rational Recovery or any other non--AA program -- I would expect that level of maturity from others on the SoberRecovery boards as well.
Ken
alconaut
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Motor City
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by NoMoBeer
I would expect that level of maturity from others on the SoberRecovery boards as well.
Ken
Ken
But welcome anyway, Taiman.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 98
Originally Posted by NoMoBeer
Taiman:
I have to take issue with your 12 step bashing. It does work for many people, me included. No one "roped me in" or held a gun to my head. I made a decision to give AA a shot. I found a sponsor -- a friend, if you will -- to help me work through the 12 steps. I am sober today. Sober, in the truest sense of the word -- not just "not drinking."
I would ask that you let people make their own decision without harshly criticizing the AA or Al Anon programs.
I truly believe that people need to find their own recovery program, I don't bash SMART, Rational Recovery or any other non--AA program -- I would expect that level of maturity from others on the SoberRecovery boards as well.
Ken
I have to take issue with your 12 step bashing. It does work for many people, me included. No one "roped me in" or held a gun to my head. I made a decision to give AA a shot. I found a sponsor -- a friend, if you will -- to help me work through the 12 steps. I am sober today. Sober, in the truest sense of the word -- not just "not drinking."
I would ask that you let people make their own decision without harshly criticizing the AA or Al Anon programs.
I truly believe that people need to find their own recovery program, I don't bash SMART, Rational Recovery or any other non--AA program -- I would expect that level of maturity from others on the SoberRecovery boards as well.
Ken
The man isn't coming here because he has an alcohol problem, his fiancee does. I suggested leaving her would solve his problems.
Al-Anon is a round-a-bout once you get on you can't get off. Isn't it true that members will discourage him if he wants to leave? Isn't your goal to attend AA until you die?
AA's own statistics show a 94-96% failure rate, period.
For someone to make an objective decision they need to examine all their options, not just AA. Remember what Hebert Spencer said about contempt prior to examination and living a life of everlasting ignorance. Many may find that non-12 steps options work for them better.
But again to reiterate this man doesn't have a problem with alcohol.
It is amazing how fast you will be attacked here, if you don't mimick AA philosophy like a mindless drone.
Last edited by Taiman; 11-30-2005 at 09:02 PM. Reason: typo
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 98
Originally Posted by Autumn
Pretty feisty for someone who's almost 85 years old....
But welcome anyway, Taiman.
But welcome anyway, Taiman.
alconaut
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Motor City
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by Taiman
Thank you. I call it as I see it. I don't expect to be popular here but I won't loose any sleep over it.
Well, I sure hope to have your spirit and marbles about me if I ever make it that far. Why not start a thread, and tell us a bit about yourself?
And just want to add too, that the AAers here have found the program works for them.... and they have their OWN FORUM, lol. Obviously, those who the program hasn't worked for don't post there (I personally waver). And SR has a rather AA bent, so to speak. So, really, you might not wanna come out swingin'.
Not to say your views aren't welcome here - on the contrary. I'm not an AA member, so I appreciate any alternative views. Though there are some fine AA members here who do also.
You might want to check out the "What is Recovery" forum too. There you will find a real grab-bag of perspectives.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3
Wow! Thanks for everyone who voiced their opinion. Obviously it is difficult to reply without knowing the whole story. As I read through your replies, I take this into account but appreciate everything from kind words of optimism to the "tough love" statements of Taiman. I think Autumn does have a point about possible "control issues" that might contribute. I am no prize by any stretch! There is one part of the story that I left out and I am wondering if I did the right thing. You see, after the confrontation, I left our house to cool off. I just needed some space. Well, her mother was staying with us for the night and when I came back, I asked her to go upstairs and get her mother. My fiancee admitted that there is something wrong with her behavior and that she needs to face it. I knew that at some point her family would need to support her and I wanted the moment to be "momentus" to perhaps use the wrong word to describe it. I thought it was a good idea at the time since there was admission followed by the love and support of her mother. But I wonder if it was too much- like rubbing her nose in it...I dunno...perhaps more control issues, right? Anyhow, I will see how the therapy goes. More about us, I am 33, she is 31, we are both successful professionals, college grads and have a typical suburbian life. I am sure we are just like any neighbor of all you here. Nothing has ever come easy for me, so maybe this is par for the course. Looking into some of the popular programs out there, I am fearful of the failure rate. I really don't want to get "brainwashed" (I know, bad term) into thinking the problem is worse than it is and at the same time I don't want to make light of it. Man this stuff is complex! I hope that whatever it is, we have caught it "early" if there is such a thing...I'll try and keep posting as we move forward.
Regardless- I am thankful for all of your comments!
Regardless- I am thankful for all of your comments!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 872
Originally Posted by Taiman
You can take issue with it, if you want. However here are the facts.
The man isn't coming here because he has an alcohol problem, his fiancee does. I suggested leaving her would solve his problems.
Al-Anon is a round-a-bout once you get on you can't get off. Isn't it true that members will discourage him if he wants to leave? Isn't your goal to attend AA until you die?
AA's own statistics show a 94-96% failure rate, period.
For someone to make an objective decision they need to examine all their options, not just AA. Remember what Hebert Spencer said about contempt prior to examination and living a life of everlasting ignorance. Many may find that non-12 steps options work for them better.
But again to reiterate this man doesn't have a problem with alcohol.
It is amazing how fast you will be attacked here, if you don't mimick AA philosophy like a mindless drone.
The man isn't coming here because he has an alcohol problem, his fiancee does. I suggested leaving her would solve his problems.
Al-Anon is a round-a-bout once you get on you can't get off. Isn't it true that members will discourage him if he wants to leave? Isn't your goal to attend AA until you die?
AA's own statistics show a 94-96% failure rate, period.
For someone to make an objective decision they need to examine all their options, not just AA. Remember what Hebert Spencer said about contempt prior to examination and living a life of everlasting ignorance. Many may find that non-12 steps options work for them better.
But again to reiterate this man doesn't have a problem with alcohol.
It is amazing how fast you will be attacked here, if you don't mimick AA philosophy like a mindless drone.
Now, to answer some of your other questions and observations:
I know what twilson was coming here for, and I answered his post. I cannot judge other people's situations. My post to you specifically was to ask you to NOT bash 12 step programs, and that they do work for many people like me.
My goal is not to attend AA until I die. My goal is to stay sober today. Period. Maybe I will attend AA until I die, maybe I won't -- I just don't know at this point, Taiman -- I only have today. Tomorrow is not promised to me.
I did not ask him to NOT examine his other options -- I'm not about putting down any option out there -- that's your game, not mine. I can only relate a program that works for me -- to give any insight on other programs I truly know nothing about would be conceited and wrong... I suggested Al Anon, not AA...
And I will reiterate again, I KNOW this man doesn't have a problem with alcohol, I said "AA helps ME..." I never suggested he has a problem, we 12 steppers can even read, you know
...Oh yeah, I didn't address the 'failure' rate you mentioned. Not sure where you get that kind of data (would you kindly reference your source?) -- but I do know that when I sit in a room with other fellow alcoholics, we are sober -- discussing our sobriety, life, and how we can live sober. I walk out of there sober, and I live life sober. Honestly, that's really all I can do. If others choose to go into AA, go back out -- drink -- whatever -- while it saddens me, there's not a whole lot I can do about that. I'll always be there to help any alcoholic, but all I can do today is my very best to live sober, maybe help another alcoholic if I can, and do the next right thing in front of me. Not sure if Alcoholics Anonymous fails or people fail. I know that AA works for me.... and countless others.
I have not attacked you, but I will defend my program, same as Don S. and other "non-AA folks" have the right to defend their choice of program.
I would ask that you not attack my program -- please stop.
Ken
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 872
twilson--
Sorry if I made it seem like I was pushing Al-Anon, AA -- but I only know what works for me and countless others.
There are many other solutions out there for sure. I can tell you I have never been brainwashed or had a mind meld... -- I can also tell you that I'm sober. I can't tell you what will or will not work for you in your situation, you're the only one who can truly make that decision.
I would certainly suggest checking out Al Anon, and AA for your gal -- as well as some of the other non-12 step programs out there. Find what works for both of you... but you'll both need to work.
Hope you find your way, and if you ever have questions, feel free to PM me...
Ken
Sorry if I made it seem like I was pushing Al-Anon, AA -- but I only know what works for me and countless others.
There are many other solutions out there for sure. I can tell you I have never been brainwashed or had a mind meld...
-- I can also tell you that I'm sober. I can't tell you what will or will not work for you in your situation, you're the only one who can truly make that decision.I would certainly suggest checking out Al Anon, and AA for your gal -- as well as some of the other non-12 step programs out there. Find what works for both of you... but you'll both need to work.
Hope you find your way, and if you ever have questions, feel free to PM me...
Ken
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