Fatality rate references - can you help?
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Fatality rate references - can you help?
Okay - hubby has been refused a counsellor on the basis he's had 6 sessions already. Coincidently this was after I challenged (asked for a reference) the counsellor's 'facts' about the fatality rate for alcoholism.
The counsellor stated that 95% of alcoholics die from alcohol related accidents/illness if left untreated. FIRST I'd like to make it clear I have NO idea what the rate should be or is. I asked him if he had a reference because with cancer, etc things are measured in terms of 5, 10, 15, 20 year survival rates. This is done because it is almost impossible to have studies that follow individuals long enough to do it any other way.
I asked for a reference because you would need a sample of at least 20 people (just to get 95% as a figure - much more to be mathematically significant), 5% of which would have to be followed through a natural life span, if any gained treatment they would have to leave the group of 'untreated' meaning that either all participants NEVER went for treatment or a larger sample would be needed at outset. Add into this the need for a control group and statistical significance and the study becomes near impossible to carry out - it would take decades of following active alcoholics that NEVER recieve treatment.
Until I asked for this reference D had been told he would be put on the waiting list. When I asked for a reference the counsellor got very angry, and said as a clinician he neither knew nor cared because he believed it and his qualifications were enough of a reference for us.
This bothers me but perhaps the guy was right so I've googled everything I can think of to find a reference. I can find people mentioning it - but NEVER a reference. I've searched through NIAAA, the web at large for any referenced fatality rate. The only thing I've learned is that lots of drinkers die due to smoking!!
If this is referenced somewhere I'd like to let the counsellor know I'd found it. I'm not really sure what to do if it appears to be nowhere to be found - I feel as though proffessionals SHOULDN'T quote stats without any idea of the source. Especially if the source turns out to be non-existant.
Again - I'd like to add I'm not arguing for or against the figure - just whether any 'quoted' study exists. For the sake of honesty that matters to me.
The counsellor stated that 95% of alcoholics die from alcohol related accidents/illness if left untreated. FIRST I'd like to make it clear I have NO idea what the rate should be or is. I asked him if he had a reference because with cancer, etc things are measured in terms of 5, 10, 15, 20 year survival rates. This is done because it is almost impossible to have studies that follow individuals long enough to do it any other way.
I asked for a reference because you would need a sample of at least 20 people (just to get 95% as a figure - much more to be mathematically significant), 5% of which would have to be followed through a natural life span, if any gained treatment they would have to leave the group of 'untreated' meaning that either all participants NEVER went for treatment or a larger sample would be needed at outset. Add into this the need for a control group and statistical significance and the study becomes near impossible to carry out - it would take decades of following active alcoholics that NEVER recieve treatment.
Until I asked for this reference D had been told he would be put on the waiting list. When I asked for a reference the counsellor got very angry, and said as a clinician he neither knew nor cared because he believed it and his qualifications were enough of a reference for us.
This bothers me but perhaps the guy was right so I've googled everything I can think of to find a reference. I can find people mentioning it - but NEVER a reference. I've searched through NIAAA, the web at large for any referenced fatality rate. The only thing I've learned is that lots of drinkers die due to smoking!!
If this is referenced somewhere I'd like to let the counsellor know I'd found it. I'm not really sure what to do if it appears to be nowhere to be found - I feel as though proffessionals SHOULDN'T quote stats without any idea of the source. Especially if the source turns out to be non-existant.
Again - I'd like to add I'm not arguing for or against the figure - just whether any 'quoted' study exists. For the sake of honesty that matters to me.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
Maybe check the American Medical Assoication pages and the American Physiciatric (sp?)Association pages doing a search under alcoholism or percentages etc.
I have heard that and I have heard only 2 of every 37 alcoholics die ever having seen any sobriety, but I have never seen it a medical journal or a medical article.
Sounds to me like that therapist was blowing smoke. JMHO
Love and (((((to all))))),
I have heard that and I have heard only 2 of every 37 alcoholics die ever having seen any sobriety, but I have never seen it a medical journal or a medical article.
Sounds to me like that therapist was blowing smoke. JMHO
Love and (((((to all))))),
*
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lincolnshire, England
Posts: 464
Not sure how helpful these sites will be but thought I'd post them anyway.
You never know there may be a link on them that you can follow
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000821.htm
http://omni.ac.uk/browse/mesh/D020751.html
http://api.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00006/art00581
You never know there may be a link on them that you can follow
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000821.htm
http://omni.ac.uk/browse/mesh/D020751.html
http://api.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00006/art00581
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 9,293
When I asked for a reference the counsellor got very angry, and said as a clinician he neither knew nor cared because he believed it and his qualifications were enough of a reference for us.
You might want to report him to a supervisor, and request another counselor.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this...
Shalom!
body ~ mind ~ spirit
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
Posts: 582
Originally Posted by equus
I feel as though proffessionals SHOULDN'T quote stats without any idea of the source. Especially if the source turns out to be non-existant.
I took my daughter to a dentist (this is a little off track, but professionals give me the willys when they think they know it all) and the dentist asked me if she could put in a particular type of filling. I knew that some fillings have mercury in them which is quite bad for health and asked if it was the type. She said that these fillings didn't and she had them and they were fine for her. I went home and checked and the filling she put in was the type that had mercury in it, I was really annoyed, the dentist didn't know or admit that they didn't know. Meanwhile my daughter got this stupid filling in her mouth when there were alternatives. And the argument that she had that type of filling and she was ok just doesn't cut it with me.
Professionals should be able to admit a lack of knowledge and look it up, that to me is preferrable than bull**** and pretending that they know it all, no one can know it all, there is just too much to know and there are sometimes no right answers.
Go to another counsellor if you can and good riddance to the one with the over confidence in statistics.
love brigid
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I agree re the counsellor's attitude but unfotunately he turned out to be 'Head of Client Services' and we got a letter on Saturday saying that they wouldn't offer D a new counsellor! Prior to this dicussion they said they would.
In a way I feel responsible for getting up his nose but D agreed with what I did. Because I normally stay very quiet if the counsellor is talking to D it was unusual for me to butt in with what got taken as a challenge.
After the letter it really bothered me because it smacked of an abuse of power. First though I'll do whatever I can to make sure my facts are straight.
In a way I feel responsible for getting up his nose but D agreed with what I did. Because I normally stay very quiet if the counsellor is talking to D it was unusual for me to butt in with what got taken as a challenge.
After the letter it really bothered me because it smacked of an abuse of power. First though I'll do whatever I can to make sure my facts are straight.
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The stat is not based on any one particular study, but an analysis of compiled data, some empirical and some anecdotal, done by the APA (American Psyc Assn) a few years back.
The data shows that ALL addicts combined (alcoholism and other drugs, with and without treatment) suffer a 97% addiction related death rate. When you sort out those who have undergone some sort of rehab/treatment/program, the death rate still sucks (80%) but is far better that that for those that never make an attempt to quit.
"Some sort of rehab/treatment/program" includes formal, professional resources like a rehab facility and/or professionally facilitated therapy as well as less formal, non-professional programs like AA.
BubbaBob
The data shows that ALL addicts combined (alcoholism and other drugs, with and without treatment) suffer a 97% addiction related death rate. When you sort out those who have undergone some sort of rehab/treatment/program, the death rate still sucks (80%) but is far better that that for those that never make an attempt to quit.
"Some sort of rehab/treatment/program" includes formal, professional resources like a rehab facility and/or professionally facilitated therapy as well as less formal, non-professional programs like AA.
BubbaBob
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Equus;
Refusing D a new counselor IS an abuse of power. No matter what the reason. We have a right to request a different counselor for many reasons. Some times, people just don't click. Years ago, I had to fight for a new counselor. The woman stated that I wasn't following the treatment program. Well, what I wasn't doing was allowing her to control me! Quite a difference. I went over her head, and told MY story to the director. I got a new counselor. I later found out from another person who works at the agency that she's had many complaints for the same behavior.
And there's got to be someone over this guy's head; a director; a board of directors; a state official; someone. Please do report this abuse. It's wrong and D deserves the opportunity to have a counselor to work through his issues, whatever they are. I'll be willing to bet that this guy has had more than one complaint about him.
As a professional, when my students, parents or administration ask me something, I am always willing to back up what I'm doing. There's a source; a pedogogical reason or a methodological reason for my behavior or statements. That's what a professional is. There was no call for him to get so defensive over a simple question. Especially a question of that nature, that speaks to so many of our deepest fears! He should have understood that, if he's a counselor worth his salt.
Take it one step at a time; get your information together and present it to someone over this guey's head. You both deserve better than what you've received thus far.
Wishing you the best.
Shalom!
Refusing D a new counselor IS an abuse of power. No matter what the reason. We have a right to request a different counselor for many reasons. Some times, people just don't click. Years ago, I had to fight for a new counselor. The woman stated that I wasn't following the treatment program. Well, what I wasn't doing was allowing her to control me! Quite a difference. I went over her head, and told MY story to the director. I got a new counselor. I later found out from another person who works at the agency that she's had many complaints for the same behavior.
And there's got to be someone over this guy's head; a director; a board of directors; a state official; someone. Please do report this abuse. It's wrong and D deserves the opportunity to have a counselor to work through his issues, whatever they are. I'll be willing to bet that this guy has had more than one complaint about him.
As a professional, when my students, parents or administration ask me something, I am always willing to back up what I'm doing. There's a source; a pedogogical reason or a methodological reason for my behavior or statements. That's what a professional is. There was no call for him to get so defensive over a simple question. Especially a question of that nature, that speaks to so many of our deepest fears! He should have understood that, if he's a counselor worth his salt.
Take it one step at a time; get your information together and present it to someone over this guey's head. You both deserve better than what you've received thus far.
Wishing you the best.
Shalom!
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The first counsellor there who was assigned to D was great, but she did warn us that she wasn't sure who else there had the skills needed - they rely on volunteers for a large part.
The reason given in the letter was that D had already had six sessions which is all they committ to provide. The coincidence was that before we clashed with that counsellor he was on the list for more - then he wasn't. I can't see any way to show that was more than a coincidence, although as they had his file when they offered more it seems VERY coincidental to me.
Until that session I'd never offered any opinion while a counsellor was talking to D, if he asked me my thoughts later I'd say but never in the middle. I was only angry when he responded as though it had been so wrong to ask - initially I just wanted the reference.
I'm not sure going back there would be the right thing, D wanted to if he got assigned another individual counsellor but the adhoc basis wasn't really that helpful. I think any chanced of getting assigned has gone now and I feel partly responsible for that. The fact the guy is the head of client services pretty much nails it - that's a pity. From his opinions about the previous counselling we'd had there I guess the eclectic approach they had was bottom up not top down. He said of our previous counsellor that she had used social work through lack of addiction experince. That's the opinion of a guy with a diploma speaking about one of HIS counsellors who had worked as a fully qualified SW in mental health and completed a Master's degree in addiction!! (Again not something that warmed either of us to him!).
He's a big fish in a little pond and I think knows it.
What mattered to me was whether he had used stats with any real basis - I'll follow up what's here and see where it leads. Bubbabob - any handy link? If I find one I'll post it. I'm curious if it's debated because unless alcoholism had got so serious that physical evidence was picked up by medics then how would they know it was there in people who didn't go for help? For that matter how would they know even if they had used help? I'm also surprised I couldn't find any trace on the NIAAA site or in the DSM IV-Tr Alcohol dependence description.
The reason given in the letter was that D had already had six sessions which is all they committ to provide. The coincidence was that before we clashed with that counsellor he was on the list for more - then he wasn't. I can't see any way to show that was more than a coincidence, although as they had his file when they offered more it seems VERY coincidental to me.
Until that session I'd never offered any opinion while a counsellor was talking to D, if he asked me my thoughts later I'd say but never in the middle. I was only angry when he responded as though it had been so wrong to ask - initially I just wanted the reference.
I'm not sure going back there would be the right thing, D wanted to if he got assigned another individual counsellor but the adhoc basis wasn't really that helpful. I think any chanced of getting assigned has gone now and I feel partly responsible for that. The fact the guy is the head of client services pretty much nails it - that's a pity. From his opinions about the previous counselling we'd had there I guess the eclectic approach they had was bottom up not top down. He said of our previous counsellor that she had used social work through lack of addiction experince. That's the opinion of a guy with a diploma speaking about one of HIS counsellors who had worked as a fully qualified SW in mental health and completed a Master's degree in addiction!! (Again not something that warmed either of us to him!).
He's a big fish in a little pond and I think knows it.
What mattered to me was whether he had used stats with any real basis - I'll follow up what's here and see where it leads. Bubbabob - any handy link? If I find one I'll post it. I'm curious if it's debated because unless alcoholism had got so serious that physical evidence was picked up by medics then how would they know it was there in people who didn't go for help? For that matter how would they know even if they had used help? I'm also surprised I couldn't find any trace on the NIAAA site or in the DSM IV-Tr Alcohol dependence description.
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