wantneeda

now you really got me thinkin'....i like that

seeing as you don't think AA is for you, does this mean that you are NOT powerless over alcohol anymore, your life is manageable? Nothing is greater powered than you that can restore you to sanity?? No moral inventory to keep ahead of?
no character defects or shortcomings??
No amends necessary?
no helping others to keep yourself sober?
Can you shut the door on your past now?

i don't mean this in a derogatory sense, honestly. I'm really just curious if you throw all that you learned, all your growth out the window with the meetings now. along with willingness and openmindedness and honesty.
no more easy does it, one day at a time, keep it simple....? No more promises or acceptance?
on the other hand, are there things that you will take with you, that you learned. I don't believe you can unlearn them.

in reading your other thread i noticed you commenting on how trying to work the steps kept you confused, i know myself i can complicate a raindrop. It's my nature.
does this mean you're not confused anymore??

hugs, Wendy

Don S

I'm not going to answer for Mill. He can do that. But...
--I don't believe that I'm powerless over alcohol. Among recovery groups, powerlessness is unique to AA. I needed to learn to exert power over my use of alcohol.
--I don't believe that alcohol abuse is a sign of insanity. Some people who abuse alcohol are mentally ill. But not all, probably not most.
--Like most people in other recovery programs, I look within to find the power for change. It's there. I believe it's a matter of learning the tools, finding the will, and enacting the changes in behavior.
--moral inventories may be useful, but aren't necessary to achieve sobriety. Similarly, I don't believe that drinking or using drugs is a result of a character defect. It's behavior that is unhealthy. Again, the 'character defect' concept is unique to AA.
--making amends to those we've harmed by our behavior is admirable and may be useful in sustaining sobriety, but not necessary for everyone. To my knowledge that is also unique to AA, and seems to have some basis in the religious history of the organization.
--many of us help others, and find that it helps keep us sober. Again, that is an individual choice, not the basis of our sobriety.
--'shutting the door on the past'? Accepting the past and learning from it are probably important to sobriety. But so is looking forward.
--many people who come to other recovery programs continue to use parts of the AA philosophy, or make use of the incomparable group support they've found at AA. It isn't a matter of throwing it all out.

I think we're all a little confused at times. At least until our neurotransmitters achieve equilibrium or the kids move out.
Don S

FriendofBill

I hope we hear from Mill..good questions.

Millwallj

Want - you have asked the questions, so i'll give an answer.

Are your things important? yes, but they are all things (sober) humans do anyway - for the most part. Well actually - its all things that I ispire to anyway. Programme or not. If you think you need to be told how to do these things then you may have less morals than me.

Try to be a bad, wicked person for just one day. See how long you last. You wont be able to keep it up.

Do I think they have anything to do with alcoholisim? nope. I have power over my sobriety - but not the affects of alcohol.

It all depends in what you believe in. IF you think that stuff is keeping you sober, then yabadabdoo, keep on it.

As for me - I see different (and so do a whole other bunch of people).

kweather99

Don,
I agree in the sense that everyone has to find what works for them. Absolutely!

However, I respectfully disagree regarding your comment on alcohol abuse not being insane behavior. Here is the dictionary (Encarta) definition: "2. lacking reasonable thought: showing a complete lack of reason or foresight ( informal )"

My drinking was insanity based upon what I did and the consequences of my actions while drunk. Always doing the same thing and expecting a different result, that was also a form of my insanity. But hey, this is just me. Whatever works for all of us individually to keep us sober is what matters, not what I believe, per se.

Chabroso

I went to AA and I got sober there. I accepted I was powerless over alcohol and my life was sure as hell unmanageable. I had no trouble with that step.
I also had no trouble recognising my drinking was insane. As was said, to keep repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

I did the steps and I stayed in AA because back when I got sober there was really no alternative and I wanted to stop drinking.
I stayed with AA for a few years, did some 12th step work but I did'nt ever want to be one of those who had been sober for many years and who still felt they need a number of meetings every week to stay sober. I didn't want to be a bleeding deacon who forcefully pushed the Big Book down throats and had no conversation outside of the fellowship and the B/Book.

AA taught me how to live life outside of the doors of meetings. I don't think my life was meant to be spent in meeting rooms for fear of drinking if I didn't attend meetings. AA gave me the tools to go out into the community and live as others do without needing to drink.

I haven't been to an AA meeting for over 14 years now. I still live by the principles of the program and I am still sober. For that I am ever grateful to AA.

BSPGirl

Ok I'm following the Self Management And Reovery Training (SMART) program and it's different from AA/NA so I'm gonna answer those questions too.

Yes I am NOT powerless over anything in my life, it's all my behavior, everyone can change their behavior. I have some unwanted behaviors I'm changing, lil by lil but it's working. No I don't believe there's a greater power, some God being you can use to put the blame on, I am in total control of my life, my body and thus my fate. I don't like labels and I don't like being labeled 'insane' cuz what exactly is sanity? It's all a matter of perception. Moral inventory, what do you mean? I got a set of morals/standards I live by and I stick to them. Again I don't know what you mean by 'character defects and shortcomings' but I'm learning to unconditionally accept myself the way I am. I am so much more than Marte The Alcoholic or anything like that. Making amends is a cool thing to do, don't know if it's needed for your recovery tho. I go by Unconditional Others Acceptance. I always ask myself if it should matter what others think, it doesn't. I sure like to help others when they ask me for help, I do find it kinda insightful to discuss things for my own thinking processes, however me being clean and sober doesn't depend on it. I am learning to take care of myself first in order to properly help others. Nope I can't shut the door to my past, simply cuz evil things will alwas leak under it thru the keyhole, whatever. I prefer to learn from my past. What's done is done tho.

As you can see there's a lot of acceptance in the above story, also I do like to keep things simple so that you don't need to be scientist to understand it. And trust me: you really don't need to have a college degree in order to understand these rational tools SMART offers. Promises? Promises aren't very valuable in my opinion. I do set goals however and I slowly work towards them all the time, learning, day by day. Yes sometimes I take it day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute even. When the urges come up I need to.

The 12 Steps program had a depressing effect on me, I can honestly say I'm much better and less confused now I'm not into them anymore.

Hope this helped, PM me if ya got questions.

michaelj

On Don and Kweather's points about insanity I have to side with Don. I believe that every drink I took was because of a rational desire to achieve the buzz that the first drink gave me. I wanted the buzz, alcohol gives the buzz, therefore drink alcohol. It's quite logical really.
The illogical, but not insane, part is that the desire for the buzz overrides the rational mind after the first couple of drinks. Intoxication and his pals ride into town, rationality and his best mate common sense ride out and the results aren't hard to imagine.
I can be a strange cove at times but I have no doubts that I am in good shape mentally. I had long known that the most difficult job I had to do to achieve sobriety was to make the irrevocable decision to quit. My rational mind knew that there could be no half measures in defeating this physical addiction. I knew I had to stop for good and the consequences of that decision were so far reaching that I put it off for years. I knew there was only one course of action open to me but I refused to take it for so long because it was easier to drink and I got to get a bit of the buzz now and then. Nothing insane or irrational there.
Of course there is mental illness in alcoholics, I would be blind to assert otherwise. What there isn't is a general level of insanity in all of us who have become addicted to alcohol.
I hope this makes sense
Best wishes
Michael

kweather99

I appreciate everyone's right to an opinion, and thanks for caring enough to share it.

I guess for me it comes down to alcohol is but a symptom, and the real issues is my self-centeredness, my selfishness in the extreme.

One thing I know is I have no answers for anyone else, but man, do I have a lot of questions. :-)
Kevin

Don S

The paradox is that it takes a reasonable degree of self-centeredness to get and stay sober. You can do it for others initially, but ultimately it's something we do for ourselves.
Those of us who aren't in AA believe that the power for that change also comes from withing our selves.
Don S

doorknob

Don, Micheal, BSPGirl,

Thank you for providing some inspiration for people struggling with staying sober, who can't make use of the traditional groups and belief systems that currently dominate recovery.

Paul

wantneeda

whoa there Mil, I am not judging you for leaving AA, i only wanted to know really what you are taking away from the program when you go. I myself could not get and stay clean and sober by myself. Does that mean, to you, that i have less morals than you or anyone else? And actually i did bad, wicked things for a big string of days, 3 years actually, if not more. I am not a bad , wicked person but my disease took over my life. Without AA and the simple principles that it's taught me i would not be where i am today. But that's me. Would you be where you are today if not for AA? Would you be sober?
Would you have grown as much as you have? I wouldn't have.
If not for step 1 and admitting i am powerless, i would still be drinking and doing drugs, i'm almost sure of it. Or i'd be dead. My life was unmanageable, i needed to see it in black and white, that moral inventory. BSPgirl, i was taught values and morals growing up, but they went out the window when i was actively using. Even today i have character defects. Doing things i shouldn't do, and shortcomings, not doing things i should do. Just because i'm not using today doesn't mean i'm perfect now, nor will i ever be.
Chabroso, thanks for your reply. it is possible to take what you learned in AA and live sober without the meetings, i'm glad it worked for you. I don't know if it would work for me, maybe because i'm still really a newcomer even though i'm almost 15 months clean and sober, today i'm not ready to find out.
If i feel i need direction from AA to stay sober Mil, i have less morals than you?? I guess thats your judgement call....
I can honestly say that i was insane during my using days. But thats my call.
Don even though i am in AA i do beleive as well that my desire to stop and stay stopped comes from within. I just get strength from AA at the same time. I can be a positive light in the meetings. I find it rubs off on others. I know sometimes they are depressing. But i keep learning when i go, so for that i will keep going. I don't have anything to lose. And i won't look down or cross-eyed at someone elses recovery either, and where they get strength and wisdom from.
Mil, if we didn't see different then we'd all be the same, i'm thankful for differences, it keeps life interesting. But our addiction is the same, bottom line.
so i guess i'll yabbadabbadoo another day

wantneeda

now i'm wondering how many people have gotten and stayed sober without ever having one kind of program or another to get them started?

wozzek

One here.

wantneeda

and how have you done it? for how long?? if you don't mind me asking

Don S

Statistically, and depending on your definitions, the rate for complete abstinence after six months without using any kind of program is about 25%. The rate for 'mostly abstinent' or significantly reduced drinking without using any kind of program after six months is about 30%.
Don S

wozzek

You know how Mark Twain said - "Quitting smoking is easy. I've done it a thousand times." - so it was similarly "easy" with drink and me. I had been living in an agonizing pain or recurring drunkenness all the time like so many others until I became a "late stage alcoholic" (either drunk or recovering for a last drink) who suffered just by being (drunk) me.<o:p></o:p>

One day I was reading Paolo Coelho’s "Veronica Decides To Die" in some NYC pizza joint. I met him in Rio de Janeiro (I used to live there). The book features a city (Ljubljana in Slovenia) that I knew very very well and I looked around. All this, Mr. Coelho, that city I liked in a sense looked so strange, distant to me. I am a foreigner everywhere and I have been almost everywhere and have been pondering my life. I everywhere, yes, but I have been drunk everywhere – in Paris, in Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Melbourne, Moscow, Tokyo, New York you name it…<o:p></o:p>

And I said to myself - f**** disgrace!!!, you’ve been given such a privilege to travel, to see the world and all you can remember are smelly bars in Madrid or cold streets of Saint Petersburg where I insulted one great human being while drunk and that's it. Why to be if I refuse to live?<o:p></o:p>

Look at me, I said to myself, I am in New York City, in an absolutely incredible place to be and all I can do is to go around the corner to have another drink. And we have everything here, everything!! Need a book, here you can find any etc., you now the drill about this place.<o:p></o:p>

Then I saw one mesmerizing girl and her teal-colored eyes and have seen myself reflecting in them. What I saw? Just a creepy old drunk who's drooling over her beauty while mulling over a choice of vodka's. That was it!<o:p></o:p>

Are you going to live or are you going to die was my question!? And having an extensive knowledge of a “quitting failures”, relapses, I decided to “re-visit the world”. I took a deep, deep breath and entered the freedom.

Not a drink since (July 21, 2003). In a meanwhile I’ve seen almost every exibit in Met, I climbed Corcovado, learnt two more languages (soon I'll be dealing with English, a language I never studied, not a single hour in my life), swam in the Oceans everywhere, explored more than 20 different juices and numerous combination of them. I even fallen in love (she wasn't responsive, ahhh... however I felt broken but fantastic, capable to feel again) I've gotten back to myself – I started to write again, to direct again, to read again, to think again, to dream again and to work towards the goals set in those dreams.

wozzek

In comparison to what?

Millwallj

now THAT is interesting.

Don S

From various studies, usually of populations identified as alcohol abusers then followed up after some period of time to see who quit, how, and why.

Don