What's the deal with AA?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 872
Oops, forgot to add -- MY sponsor is about to get his Doctorate, so I guess he's trained too. I don't care about that, though -- he's got what I want -- sobriety -- and he helps me get that, too....
Keep on keeping on....
Off to sunny California for me... see you guys tonight...
Ken
Keep on keeping on....
Off to sunny California for me... see you guys tonight...
Ken
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Don S
Gosh, do I really need to start posting web links to illustrate the degree to which 13th stepping is a problem in AA?
By all means, let's do it.
This is after all, the What's the deal with AA thread, as you pointed out.
So, following the apparent dynamic at work here from you and a few others, let's also explore the sub-strata and do a What's the deal with individuals in AA?
Guess what Cosmo...
'55 Classic
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 637
I don’t see anything wrong with the warning that Don gave regarding 13th stepping. When I came into the program as a single female I received that warning several times from both male and female members. Perhaps it was given due to my age or my appearance. Regardless I heeded their warnings. One of my basic problems is up to that point had been in thinking that the “Right” person, place, or thing would fix me. (I also had a past track record of settling for Mr. Right-Now, hence the several failed marriages .These folks recognized this propensity in me and took pity on me. It could have easily turned out to be another case of a failed attempt at wedded bliss if I hadn’t been given some guidance about the possible pitfalls. (By the way, the man I’m married to received the same warning as I did and took it to heart as well. He’s one of the few guys I know of that when he came into the program he did the full year thing about “NO” he-ing and she-ing.)
So, warn away my friends. It sure helped me…
So, warn away my friends. It sure helped me…
Last edited by Sheryl85; 12-04-2005 at 01:01 PM. Reason: spelling error.... again!
'55 Classic
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 637
That’s what happens when you are one of the new kids on the block… you don’t know who’s playing around and who isn’t.
Uhh, think I’d better go check on the hubby. Sounds like the Cowboys just bit the big one and that may set the mood for a bummed out evening. (It’s hard being married to a coach when their own football season has ended. They get to watch way too much football on TV…)
Uhh, think I’d better go check on the hubby. Sounds like the Cowboys just bit the big one and that may set the mood for a bummed out evening. (It’s hard being married to a coach when their own football season has ended. They get to watch way too much football on TV…)
Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orchard Lake, Michigan
Posts: 974
Here is a link to one man's search for everything one could possibly say to discredit Alcoholics Anonymous.
The Orange Papers - One Man's Analysis of Alcoholics Anonymous
If there is anything missing, I'm sure Secret Agent Orange would be happy to add it. I've read parts of it. I don't agree with what I've read because it doesn't match my actual experience in attending A.A. and N.A. meetings for three years. Had I read it before I ever attended an A.A. or N.A. meeting, I never would have gone to my first one.
Here, I think, is perhaps a more balanced look at what Alcoholics Anonymous can do for an alcoholic who wants to get sober:
Your First A.A. Meeting: A Guide For the Perplexed
I am completely biased about A.A. because A.A. (and N.A.) helped to get me sober. I don't know if another program would have done the same thing since I never needed to try another program. I also feel my life has been improved in ways that have nothing (or everything) to do with not drinkng through my experience with these programs.
I think I must be in the same misfit boat with 2dayzmuse.
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
The Orange Papers - One Man's Analysis of Alcoholics Anonymous
If there is anything missing, I'm sure Secret Agent Orange would be happy to add it. I've read parts of it. I don't agree with what I've read because it doesn't match my actual experience in attending A.A. and N.A. meetings for three years. Had I read it before I ever attended an A.A. or N.A. meeting, I never would have gone to my first one.
Here, I think, is perhaps a more balanced look at what Alcoholics Anonymous can do for an alcoholic who wants to get sober:
Your First A.A. Meeting: A Guide For the Perplexed
I am completely biased about A.A. because A.A. (and N.A.) helped to get me sober. I don't know if another program would have done the same thing since I never needed to try another program. I also feel my life has been improved in ways that have nothing (or everything) to do with not drinkng through my experience with these programs.
I think I must be in the same misfit boat with 2dayzmuse.
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
Extremity
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: somewhere, out over that away
Posts: 183
Originally Posted by Don S
... AA but regarding this question:
“--Sponsor: Again, can I equate a sponsor with a certified professional or authority? Is that safe or beneficial. A person with long-time sobriety is not necessarily benign or looking out for the sponsee's best interests.”
A sponsor isn't certified, professional, or an authority in the sense that I assume you're using the term. It's a peer-based program. And watch out for 13th Steppers.
Don
“--Sponsor: Again, can I equate a sponsor with a certified professional or authority? Is that safe or beneficial. A person with long-time sobriety is not necessarily benign or looking out for the sponsee's best interests.”
A sponsor isn't certified, professional, or an authority in the sense that I assume you're using the term. It's a peer-based program. And watch out for 13th Steppers.
Don
It's also about profiting off anothers problem.
It's about preying off the vulnerable.
So it could be said that therapists actually 13th step more than any AA
and since quite a few have had a whole host of legal charges levied
with many leading to conviction, but not always loss of license or certificate,
they are not necessarily benign or looking out for any interest but their own either.
Predators exist everywhere.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.
Many studies show that peer counseling is superior to stand alone school based psychology.
That the best counselors are ones with a history of the behaviour, the experience of their own recovery, and a desire to expand that with schooling.
SMART is peer orientated too.
And just because they haven't coined a term for misappropriation of authority
doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I have an AA & NA sponsor and both happen to be certified counselors.
But they don't operate with me under that guise.
And I perfer not to call them sponsor except when some garbage like this comes up.
What they are first and foremost are my friends, long-standing, regardless of any phase I may be growing through and they consider me the same.
My several 'sponsees' have often told me they have received more insight working with me than they had from several years of 'certified counseling'.
We get to a point where it's sometimes difficult to know who is 'sponsoring' who, but that is how it is for us that are expierencing it on a regular basis.
Having had the 'certified' experience also,
I have to say that for me, sponsorship has proven far superior since it is based on buliding a relationship with no exchange of money.
A certified counselor only appears to work in your best interest when it appears to be in their best financial and often theoretical interest.
Certified programs are fee based first and the peer base is used to support those theories to imply certified authority being the best and only way.
In short the practice seems to be,
"I'll be your friend until you stop paying me or when I realize you won't adopt my views."
Now I actually believe that that some counselors are worth their weight in gold,
but they are few and far between,
and IME, usually have a basis of experience beyond schooling that gives them the edge of compassion needed.
Any con artist can become a sponsor or a certified 'authority.'
So that's not the whole picture.
But over generalizing or absolute thinking can make you believe it is.
Certainly, there are risks in making any change for our life.
And these predators are everywhere.
Is sponsorship beneficial?
IME: Very much so.
It's nice to have long-term friends that understand you.
And don't require anything but that you be friend in turn.
Be Well
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Originally Posted by Taiman
Anyway I could give you a 100 reasons why I believe AA is dangerous and soul destroying even if you do keep sober. But this is just one man's opinion.
You know what is dangerous Mr.Taiman?
It is assuming we know what is best for other people more than they know what is best for themselves.......millions have died for one man's belief.
You want to know why I don't go to the RR or SMART recovery webite to decry their methods.
Because it too closely resembles religious intolerance.
The bickering about which programme works and which ones doesn't mimmics the perpetual conflicts between the baptists and the jehovah witnesses ,the protestants and the methodiists about who is going to heaven.
Recovery is not a contest Mr. Taiman.If you claim empathy for still suffering alcoholics, look instead at how best to encourage their freedom to choose what works best for them instead of tearing at it.
You claim to despise religious bigotry and dogmatism. Careful you do not become that which you despise most.
Even if the 4- 5% is an accurate assumption, then that is 4-5% less alcoholics walking around in the world.
You say AA is harmful and yet you still refuse to accept that those of us here that adhere to the AA way of life are happy and thriving.
Do you think we lie, Mr. Taiman.
Do you think I lie when I say I am happy and grateful for what I have found in AA.?
I too own a prosperous construction company and property, but they are nothing compared to the new sense of self worth I have found in AA.
If you think AA is dangerous you obviously did not know me when I was drag racing down Washington Boulevard at 3 am in the morning stark staring drunk.
In a way I can apprereciate you Mr. Taiman. You give me reason to pause and reflect and to contemplate much that is wrong with the world and my own way of thinking.For this too I must be grateful.
I wish you peace and continued health.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Characterizing a recovery program, in precise and absolute terms, as Taiman and countless others before him have done, based on their own personal experience, simply defies the very logic they try to build their arguments upon.
Exasperatingly true Dan. I spin on the spot with guilt.
Its true. Grey areas are missing with the antis in such a chronic way that they become they enemy that the preach against.
Exasperatingly true Dan. I spin on the spot with guilt.
Its true. Grey areas are missing with the antis in such a chronic way that they become they enemy that the preach against.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Here goes it:
I feel it is mighty cruel to try and disrupt, divert, and weaken peoples core AA beliefs. I think discussion of AA in general is healthy - but to really try and ruin it is the same as going into a church and trying to prove Jesus was a Rastafarian. Its not fair - its not civil - and all you end up with is annoyed and frightened people. I am not in a science debate here - I am not on a board of doctors scratching around from the truth about AA - I am here with my fellows trying to get sober.
Why is AA not for me? Because I am all out, committed, unswathed agnostic. I dont like God very much at all. My beliefs are very much reflections of the current worldwide climate: the last thing the world needs is more servents of God. I have "chosen my hill (thanks Music) and I will stand on it" that hill be humanistic, rational, and secular. I dont want to get humble before God. Its just not in me.
If I am going to be critical of AA I try and tailor it so it helps my fellows not so it makes them hold there heads in shame and confusion. I am dealing with humanity on this board - not a collective of scientists.
AA works for people who LOVE spirituality. I am sure thats the key denominator. And for those it harms they will wise up and leave. Especially with the internet proving a good place to look for alternatives. So there is a way out these days.
AA members as in the bombastic, troubled lunatic fundementalists, are all trying to do good as they know how. All antis ought to remember that in my opinion.
Also you have to remember that religion does not automatically mean: irrational. There is a logic and common sense to all beliefs. Its just as intelligent to strive to understand God than it is to shut him off entirely. But I wont be a'looking. Not at this moment in time anyhow.
I feel it is mighty cruel to try and disrupt, divert, and weaken peoples core AA beliefs. I think discussion of AA in general is healthy - but to really try and ruin it is the same as going into a church and trying to prove Jesus was a Rastafarian. Its not fair - its not civil - and all you end up with is annoyed and frightened people. I am not in a science debate here - I am not on a board of doctors scratching around from the truth about AA - I am here with my fellows trying to get sober.
Why is AA not for me? Because I am all out, committed, unswathed agnostic. I dont like God very much at all. My beliefs are very much reflections of the current worldwide climate: the last thing the world needs is more servents of God. I have "chosen my hill (thanks Music) and I will stand on it" that hill be humanistic, rational, and secular. I dont want to get humble before God. Its just not in me.
If I am going to be critical of AA I try and tailor it so it helps my fellows not so it makes them hold there heads in shame and confusion. I am dealing with humanity on this board - not a collective of scientists.
AA works for people who LOVE spirituality. I am sure thats the key denominator. And for those it harms they will wise up and leave. Especially with the internet proving a good place to look for alternatives. So there is a way out these days.
AA members as in the bombastic, troubled lunatic fundementalists, are all trying to do good as they know how. All antis ought to remember that in my opinion.
Also you have to remember that religion does not automatically mean: irrational. There is a logic and common sense to all beliefs. Its just as intelligent to strive to understand God than it is to shut him off entirely. But I wont be a'looking. Not at this moment in time anyhow.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by Mogqua
13th stepping is not just about sex.
It's also about profiting off anothers problem.
It's about preying off the vulnerable.
So it could be said that therapists actually 13th step more than any AA
and since quite a few have had a whole host of legal charges levied
with many leading to conviction, but not always loss of license or certificate,
they are not necessarily benign or looking out for any interest but their own either.
Predators exist everywhere.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.
Many studies show that peer counseling is superior to stand alone school based psychology.
That the best counselors are ones with a history of the behaviour, the experience of their own recovery, and a desire to expand that with schooling.
SMART is peer orientated too.
And just because they haven't coined a term for misappropriation of authority
doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I have an AA & NA sponsor and both happen to be certified counselors.
But they don't operate with me under that guise.
And I perfer not to call them sponsor except when some garbage like this comes up.
What they are first and foremost are my friends, long-standing, regardless of any phase I may be growing through and they consider me the same.
My several 'sponsees' have often told me they have received more insight working with me than they had from several years of 'certified counseling'.
We get to a point where it's sometimes difficult to know who is 'sponsoring' who, but that is how it is for us that are expierencing it on a regular basis.
Having had the 'certified' experience also,
I have to say that for me, sponsorship has proven far superior since it is based on buliding a relationship with no exchange of money.
A certified counselor only appears to work in your best interest when it appears to be in their best financial and often theoretical interest.
Certified programs are fee based first and the peer base is used to support those theories to imply certified authority being the best and only way.
In short the practice seems to be,
"I'll be your friend until you stop paying me or when I realize you won't adopt my views."
Now I actually believe that that some counselors are worth their weight in gold,
but they are few and far between,
and IME, usually have a basis of experience beyond schooling that gives them the edge of compassion needed.
Any con artist can become a sponsor or a certified 'authority.'
So that's not the whole picture.
But over generalizing or absolute thinking can make you believe it is.
Certainly, there are risks in making any change for our life.
And these predators are everywhere.
Is sponsorship beneficial?
IME: Very much so.
It's nice to have long-term friends that understand you.
And don't require anything but that you be friend in turn.
Be Well
It is worth noting that AA is the only program that uses sponsors. LifeRing and SOS seem to have an informal approach to the idea of mentors. WFS does not mention them at all that I can see. Concern about misuse of the sponsor role is one of the reasons SMART Recovery specifically discourages the idea.
Another key difference among groups is the role of professionals. AA text mentions the value of professionals, though they don't have a role in the program per se. RR actively discourages people from seeing addiction professionals. SMART was founded by them and encourages their participation. WFS, LifeRing, and SOS don't seem to have much to say about it.
The person running an AA meeting, as I understand it, has no special standing or training? It is truly peer-based. I don't know who can run a LifeRing or SOS meeting. Anyone can start a SMART Recovery meeting, using a manual provided by the central office, but SMART meetings are generally run by facilitators who have some degree of training; often they are established and run by never-addicted professionals. Training material is being developed for all facilitators. Online facilitators of SMART meetings have all been through a specific course of supervised training (including how to run an online meeting). So it is not strictly peer-oriented, but is rather a combination of peer support and professional (or at least trained) guidance.
RR is now a seminar program run by a private company, and has no meetings.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by NoMoBeer
- We don't have "facilitators."
- Sponsors may be trained in something, not sure. I'm trained in music, art and Sales -- oh yeah, I'm a trained triathlete too -- but that won't help another drunk. We are just drunks helping drunks, that's all.
Rule 62 Don....
- Sponsors may be trained in something, not sure. I'm trained in music, art and Sales -- oh yeah, I'm a trained triathlete too -- but that won't help another drunk. We are just drunks helping drunks, that's all.
Rule 62 Don....
Actually, the fact that you've developed an interest which you pursue with passion exemplifies the role lifestyle change plays in sustaining sobriety. That sets a living example to another drunk. Don't sell yourself short...
Don
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
"- Alcoholism kills, and it really doesn't matter how people get and stay sober, just that they do. Why put down a program you don't like simply because it didn't work for you? WHAT IF AA would have worked for a drunk, and you deterred him from going -- and that person DIED DRUNK??? Please. Great, you got your damned way, and another alkie dies. You win".
The classic "murderer" tag.
Sigh.
The classic "murderer" tag.
Sigh.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by Peter
AA dangerous?
You know what is dangerous Mr.Taiman?
It is assuming we know what is best for other people more than they know what is best for themselves.......millions have died for one man's belief.
You want to know why I don't go to the RR or SMART recovery webite to decry their methods.
Because it too closely resembles religious intolerance.
The bickering about which programme works and which ones doesn't mimmics the perpetual conflicts between the baptists and the jehovah witnesses ,the protestants and the methodiists about who is going to heaven.
Recovery is not a contest Mr. Taiman.If you claim empathy for still suffering alcoholics, look instead at how best to encourage their freedom to choose what works best for them instead of tearing at it.
You claim to despise religious bigotry and dogmatism. Careful you do not become that which you despise most.
Even if the 4- 5% is an accurate assumption, then that is 4-5% less alcoholics walking around in the world.
You say AA is harmful and yet you still refuse to accept that those of us here that adhere to the AA way of life are happy and thriving.
Do you think we lie, Mr. Taiman.
Do you think I lie when I say I am happy and grateful for what I have found in AA.?
I too own a prosperous construction company and property, but they are nothing compared to the new sense of self worth I have found in AA.
If you think AA is dangerous you obviously did not know me when I was drag racing down Washington Boulevard at 3 am in the morning stark staring drunk.
In a way I can apprereciate you Mr. Taiman. You give me reason to pause and reflect and to contemplate much that is wrong with the world and my own way of thinking.For this too I must be grateful.
I wish you peace and continued health.
You know what is dangerous Mr.Taiman?
It is assuming we know what is best for other people more than they know what is best for themselves.......millions have died for one man's belief.
You want to know why I don't go to the RR or SMART recovery webite to decry their methods.
Because it too closely resembles religious intolerance.
The bickering about which programme works and which ones doesn't mimmics the perpetual conflicts between the baptists and the jehovah witnesses ,the protestants and the methodiists about who is going to heaven.
Recovery is not a contest Mr. Taiman.If you claim empathy for still suffering alcoholics, look instead at how best to encourage their freedom to choose what works best for them instead of tearing at it.
You claim to despise religious bigotry and dogmatism. Careful you do not become that which you despise most.
Even if the 4- 5% is an accurate assumption, then that is 4-5% less alcoholics walking around in the world.
You say AA is harmful and yet you still refuse to accept that those of us here that adhere to the AA way of life are happy and thriving.
Do you think we lie, Mr. Taiman.
Do you think I lie when I say I am happy and grateful for what I have found in AA.?
I too own a prosperous construction company and property, but they are nothing compared to the new sense of self worth I have found in AA.
If you think AA is dangerous you obviously did not know me when I was drag racing down Washington Boulevard at 3 am in the morning stark staring drunk.
In a way I can apprereciate you Mr. Taiman. You give me reason to pause and reflect and to contemplate much that is wrong with the world and my own way of thinking.For this too I must be grateful.
I wish you peace and continued health.
2. Discussion isn't bickering. Personal attacks, snide comments -- those are bickering. I haven't seen that in his posts. If you see it in mine, by all means bring it to my attention. There's been a little of it in this thread, but overall not much. I went back and read through the entire thing the other evening, and actually feel this is a very well balanced and moderate thread, useful to newcomers and oldtimers alike. There is passion, people share their experiences and opinions (and statistics...). That's what forum boards are all about.
3. You are welcome to come to the SMART Recovery message board to discuss anything you like. But of course, this is not an AA forum.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by Five
"- Alcoholism kills, and it really doesn't matter how people get and stay sober, just that they do. Why put down a program you don't like simply because it didn't work for you? WHAT IF AA would have worked for a drunk, and you deterred him from going -- and that person DIED DRUNK??? Please. Great, you got your damned way, and another alkie dies. You win".
The classic "murderer" tag.
Sigh.
The classic "murderer" tag.
Sigh.
How about if we play these hypothetical 'blood on your hands' scenarios out through all their permutations?
What if AA wouldn't have worked for our hypothetical alcoholic, and another program would have, but people in AA kept saying 'keep coming back'?
What if....? Your turn.
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