The word 'alcoholic'.
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The word 'alcoholic'.
I was walking with D down our highstreet and a couple of local characters came to say hello. They're a sweet old couple but sozzled, drunk from 10 am onwards!! I've always talked to them and the old boy always gives me a hug, they like D lots too.
After our usual brief greeting I can't remember exactly what I said to D but it did include the word 'alkie' and the air froze between us. I didn't really get it because he knows I like them, he knows I didn't mean anything nasty so last night I asked him if it had offended him.
He said he hates the word 'alcoholic' or 'alkie'. He said that it's something you hear shouted at you, raged at you, that you know what it means because of the disgust in how it's said. He said that word is just memories of being something disgusting, laughed at, and hated.
It isn't about denial D doesn't deny it - it was just what he feels about the word.
It's made me think, REALLY think. We live in an inhumane, messed up world where people do bully each other. My friend used to work in a trauma ward where they would get 'drunks' in who'd just been beaten up by young lads for no reason, she said the police never bothered much with it. I wonder how many times the alcoholic is used to convey exactly what D described - disgust, hatred, and a sense of worthlessness.
I believe alcoholism is a disease and this has really bothered me, because maybe I've done it as well without meaning to. It also bothers me because I can't help but think it would hardly make ANYONE want to admit to it.
It's really just a question to people here who got quite bad at the height of drinking, I know D couldn't hide it so he would always have been likely to get more insults. Was it just him or do 'we' as in society give the word an awful meaning in how we use it? Do 'we' make alcoholic mean 'worthless'?
After our usual brief greeting I can't remember exactly what I said to D but it did include the word 'alkie' and the air froze between us. I didn't really get it because he knows I like them, he knows I didn't mean anything nasty so last night I asked him if it had offended him.
He said he hates the word 'alcoholic' or 'alkie'. He said that it's something you hear shouted at you, raged at you, that you know what it means because of the disgust in how it's said. He said that word is just memories of being something disgusting, laughed at, and hated.
It isn't about denial D doesn't deny it - it was just what he feels about the word.
It's made me think, REALLY think. We live in an inhumane, messed up world where people do bully each other. My friend used to work in a trauma ward where they would get 'drunks' in who'd just been beaten up by young lads for no reason, she said the police never bothered much with it. I wonder how many times the alcoholic is used to convey exactly what D described - disgust, hatred, and a sense of worthlessness.
I believe alcoholism is a disease and this has really bothered me, because maybe I've done it as well without meaning to. It also bothers me because I can't help but think it would hardly make ANYONE want to admit to it.
It's really just a question to people here who got quite bad at the height of drinking, I know D couldn't hide it so he would always have been likely to get more insults. Was it just him or do 'we' as in society give the word an awful meaning in how we use it? Do 'we' make alcoholic mean 'worthless'?
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I teach folks how to treat me,by my actions,my behaviour.I step on peoples toes,they will retaliate,.If for example,look at the threads on the message boards,where one person will say something negitive to another.And soon the reaction comes back,knowing that on these message boards not everyone is well.most folks are in some kind of recovery program..You would think we wouldnt do this,but...As with the face to face life.I treat folks badly,and it will return to me.The conquences of my actions.Which for me,has been a good thing.Helped bring me to the rooms of recovery.Alcoholic,is a humbling word,makes me humble,not feeling disgust.,or feelings of reject from others.Its really not about others,how they think and feel about alcoholism..Just humble,i don't know everything,like i thought i did.When active,i was in fact,useless,felt hatred,about myself.Why wouldn't i?I was useless to myself,as well as others..Yupper i believe its a disease,where there is... a solution.There is recovery...And there are choices...
Im finding that there is more understanding of the alcoholic.,today.This disease is more open today.Lots of shows about it.Lots of information about it,by laymen and professionals.Its the only disease that i know of,that tries to take hostages with it,meaning family ,friends,co-workers,,etc..Life teaches lessons.life on lifes terms.If i don't like the way im treated,i have a choice to make changes in my life,and i have.
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!!!
Im finding that there is more understanding of the alcoholic.,today.This disease is more open today.Lots of shows about it.Lots of information about it,by laymen and professionals.Its the only disease that i know of,that tries to take hostages with it,meaning family ,friends,co-workers,,etc..Life teaches lessons.life on lifes terms.If i don't like the way im treated,i have a choice to make changes in my life,and i have.
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!!!
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I agree we teach people how to treat us up to a point but I wouldn't go as far as blaming a homeless drunk for getting his head kicked in by youths wityh nothing better to do, that's their violence - their fault.
I think D might have got a lot of it because it effected him so badly physically, and mentally. At uni I know he was called an alcoholic without any compassion by every Tom Dick and harry, wet behind the ears, up their own bum 18 yr old present. There's a huge difference in something said to a loved one and something shouted as an insult.
I suppose what I was asking is when a word is used so often in the wrong way does it change our perception of it?
D just hates it because it holds way too many memories of crappy stuff that really shouldn't have happened.
I think D might have got a lot of it because it effected him so badly physically, and mentally. At uni I know he was called an alcoholic without any compassion by every Tom Dick and harry, wet behind the ears, up their own bum 18 yr old present. There's a huge difference in something said to a loved one and something shouted as an insult.
I suppose what I was asking is when a word is used so often in the wrong way does it change our perception of it?
D just hates it because it holds way too many memories of crappy stuff that really shouldn't have happened.
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“D” has every reason to be leery of the term “alcoholic.” Many times those who have dealt with or are dealing with a maladaptive behavior lose sight of what the general public thinks of addiction. Accepting that label, and the stigma associated with it, has some real consequences. In the latest President’s letter in SMART Recovery news and views, A. Thomas Horvath addresses this issue quite nicely.
Check it out if you have the time. I am sure others here will and I anticipate this to be a lengthy discussion.
SMART Recovery News and VIews
Cap3,
I think that your sentiments are honest and admirable. I truly believe that the character of a person reflects greatly in their actions and that non-biased, rational people judge people in this manner. However, when it comes to labels, oftentimes people see only the label and the stigma associated with it. So despites one’s actions many people only see an “alcoholic” and discriminate accordingly.
Check it out if you have the time. I am sure others here will and I anticipate this to be a lengthy discussion.
SMART Recovery News and VIews
Cap3,
I think that your sentiments are honest and admirable. I truly believe that the character of a person reflects greatly in their actions and that non-biased, rational people judge people in this manner. However, when it comes to labels, oftentimes people see only the label and the stigma associated with it. So despites one’s actions many people only see an “alcoholic” and discriminate accordingly.
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Therefore one cannot as a rule simply say to a neophyte in recovery, "Look here, your trouble is that you have not yet grasped precisely what such-and-such words actually mean as we are using them now. Instead, you are clinging to your prior and conventional understandings of these words, which naturally and inevitably causes you to resist and reject them, and recovery along with them. But if you will only consent to a shift in your understanding of these terms such that you will understand and henceforth employ them as we who have achieved recovery now do, all will be well."
What comes to my mind after reading your original post in this thread Equus is that sometimes, I need to fall back on that old and tired AA slogan to 'Keep it simple'. Just for me, and just for today.
Certainly when I was growing up, the word alcoholic had a pejorative ring to it, to put it mildly. I believe in conjures up images of the least fortunate of my kind; the dirty, yellow eyed, trembling man on the street corner.
To this day, even after a few decades of better education about alcoholism, I'll venture a guess that a lot of people get that mental image.
Instinctively.
Anyway, that essay I linked is quite long.
But I found it interesting, and it may fuel your research.
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People in general are cruel. The people I have met in AA and here on SR are of the most gentle and kind people I have ever come across, perhaps its the humility, definitley the work of a higher power imho.
People are cruel not only to alcoholics - anyone who looks different, is different, I mean people even laugh at people with disabilities!? how sick is that. Teenagares, esp on this side of teh world, are particularly cruel.
Basically I think anyone with a weakness (alcoholism, cerebal palsy,etc) is fair game for cruelty. It's heartbreaking. on christmas day last my H and I popped into mcdonalds on the way to his parents house...there was a terribly disfigured (birth mark over face, one eye clsed, other one squint) 7-8 year old. His dad was trying to be normal to him but a group of kids had gone outside and were banging on the window and making faces at him and making as if to 'vomit' - we left immediately and my husband couldn't understand why I was crying. People can be very very cruel and all we can really do is try OUR best to be kind to ourselves - and especially to those less fortunate than ourselves. There but for the Grace of God, go I.
Cathy31
x
People are cruel not only to alcoholics - anyone who looks different, is different, I mean people even laugh at people with disabilities!? how sick is that. Teenagares, esp on this side of teh world, are particularly cruel.
Basically I think anyone with a weakness (alcoholism, cerebal palsy,etc) is fair game for cruelty. It's heartbreaking. on christmas day last my H and I popped into mcdonalds on the way to his parents house...there was a terribly disfigured (birth mark over face, one eye clsed, other one squint) 7-8 year old. His dad was trying to be normal to him but a group of kids had gone outside and were banging on the window and making faces at him and making as if to 'vomit' - we left immediately and my husband couldn't understand why I was crying. People can be very very cruel and all we can really do is try OUR best to be kind to ourselves - and especially to those less fortunate than ourselves. There but for the Grace of God, go I.
Cathy31
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bartender, I read briefly a little bit of that article - unfirtunately enough to put me off reading more. Within 30 seconds I came across 2 fallacies. Firtsly he 'suggests' disease is only disease when it can be tested for - that rubbish! Diagnostics has ALWAYS been symptom led, how the hell do you test for something you don't even know exists? Without first determining that 'cancer' existed does he really think biopsies were carried out? Autism has no test other than symptoms to name but one of a vast number. First you group symptoms THEN you devise tests a process which is taking place as we speak with alcohol dependency.
Secondly, he argues that science is debating it's status as a disease - where? I've had my nose shoved in journals and haven't found a single one debating whether or not it is a disease - can you find a journal article that denies it being a disease? It being a journal article matters because they check references. The article you linked to is typical of people who write articles for their own groups/magazines they quote science unreferenced and write in a manner to persuade others less knowledgable about the process of science. They give science a bad name that it doesn't deserve.
I think I was looking at this in a much simpler sense. Because we've talked about it in our house, because I've presumed any reluctance has been due to him still drinking I never considered this. Once he said it - it rang true and I wanted to deepen how I understood his experience. I think I'll always challenge myself to attempt to see things from more than one perspective hence me asking the question here.
It wasn't really based on 'disease status' more a different personal perspective. Thanks to you all for answering - I will read the essay.
Cathy - I think there's something so true in what you write only the boy with the birthmark doesn't have to call himself 'ugly'. Here the insult is the same as the label - no-one really uses alcohol dependency in normal speech. Not that my heart doesn't go out to the lad - sometimes stuff I see makes me want to vomit, but by that I mean cruelty not birthmarks. Cruelty is damn ugly!
Secondly, he argues that science is debating it's status as a disease - where? I've had my nose shoved in journals and haven't found a single one debating whether or not it is a disease - can you find a journal article that denies it being a disease? It being a journal article matters because they check references. The article you linked to is typical of people who write articles for their own groups/magazines they quote science unreferenced and write in a manner to persuade others less knowledgable about the process of science. They give science a bad name that it doesn't deserve.
I think I was looking at this in a much simpler sense. Because we've talked about it in our house, because I've presumed any reluctance has been due to him still drinking I never considered this. Once he said it - it rang true and I wanted to deepen how I understood his experience. I think I'll always challenge myself to attempt to see things from more than one perspective hence me asking the question here.
It wasn't really based on 'disease status' more a different personal perspective. Thanks to you all for answering - I will read the essay.
Cathy - I think there's something so true in what you write only the boy with the birthmark doesn't have to call himself 'ugly'. Here the insult is the same as the label - no-one really uses alcohol dependency in normal speech. Not that my heart doesn't go out to the lad - sometimes stuff I see makes me want to vomit, but by that I mean cruelty not birthmarks. Cruelty is damn ugly!
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Hi equus,
You say that you gave the news letter 30 seconds. If you read further, you will see that it offers some insight on the label “alcoholic” (which by its very definition accepts alcoholism as a disease) and both societal and individual reactions to it.
You say that you gave the news letter 30 seconds. If you read further, you will see that it offers some insight on the label “alcoholic” (which by its very definition accepts alcoholism as a disease) and both societal and individual reactions to it.
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Originally Posted by bartender129
Hi equus,
You say that you gave the news letter 30 seconds. If you read further, you will see that it offers some insight on the label “alcoholic” (which by its very definition accepts alcoholism as a disease) and both societal and individual reactions to it.
You say that you gave the news letter 30 seconds. If you read further, you will see that it offers some insight on the label “alcoholic” (which by its very definition accepts alcoholism as a disease) and both societal and individual reactions to it.
Much of his challenges are correct but he seems to have missed the mark it what he has assumed from information. For example he referes to alcoholics not always needing to abstien for life - this is supported by scientific evidence which I have previously referenced in another thread. BUT that article (which I think is amazing!) doesn't anywhere challenge alcohol dependency as a disease in FACT it used the diagnostic criteria for alc dep from DSM IV TR to do the study. That is exactly how diagnostics are supposed to work - to allow us to improve our knowledge.
Lastly he takes the standpoint that the disease label creating (or at least not diminishing) stigma as a sole basis for concluding that the 'label' is unhelpful. If you look at this historically you can see some other example 'Down's Syndrome was once refered to a Mongolism and had a HUGE stigma attached. The answer in that case was not to say - 'right let's just pretend it doesn't exist', they still needed a label for research, so they just changed it. Spastics (cerebal palsy) would be another example of this. If you asked 10 people what psychotic meant you can probably guess many would say violent/mad, but psychosis does NOT always include violence, in fact no more so than the non-psychotic population (however when it happens the press are all over it). If you asked people to define the difference between psychotic and psychopathic many would struggle - but the difference is that the latter is the one refering to violent behaviour.
People's perceptions of terms are inacurate but you can't deal with that by simply winding back the clock in the hope it'll change. Sometimes it takes a name change because the damage is too great - sometimes people simply need to be given a generation or two to grow up.
In some senses he is doing exactly what he accuses other organisations of doing. Maybe he is nearer the mark but he still looks confused to me.
Okay - I've totally derailed my own thread now!! I'm still interested in learning more re my OP from a personal point of view.
Dan - I read that essay, it's an interesting point of view.
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Originally Posted by equus
Was it just him or do 'we' as in society give the word an awful meaning in how we use it? Do 'we' make alcoholic mean 'worthless'?
In my circle of recovery (which includes daily f2f meetings), I find that most are not ashamed of the label and some actually describe themselves as "a grateful recovering alcoholic." (I am not quite there... YET -
) I think that, for me, acceptance of the term and release of the shame that surrounds it is one of the gifts that will come from continuing to work the steps and all that is included in an honest program of recovery.As far as society goes, it is rife with ignorance and contempt. An easy example of this is the prevelant view that alcoholism is not a disease, thus overtly implying that an alcoholic need only apply willpower to moderate or stop drinking. Not to start a dialogue about the disease concept here (not my intent at all), but this is absolutely not true for me (or the American Medical Association - AMA). With g-d as my witness, if I could have stopped, I would have.
hugs,
phinny
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Snip
I have now read it fully
Snip
Much of his challenges are correct
I have now read it fully
Snip
Much of his challenges are correct
I understand that if one believes the "disease model", it may be hard to shelf that to read further in the newsletter. You showed a great ability to do so and I appreciate your insight.
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I have a much bigger sense of shame with the word/label DRUNK.
As in: You were so drunk.... or, Please don't get too drunk tonight... or, I only see you when you're drunk...etc.
For me it is that truly "in the gutter level drunk" that I always heard when people used the word drunk when talking about my drinking.
Alcoholic sound a little more sanitized/clinical to me than being a DRUNK!
As in: You were so drunk.... or, Please don't get too drunk tonight... or, I only see you when you're drunk...etc.
For me it is that truly "in the gutter level drunk" that I always heard when people used the word drunk when talking about my drinking.
Alcoholic sound a little more sanitized/clinical to me than being a DRUNK!
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With g-d as my witness, if I could have stopped, I would have.
He finds it hard to reconcile his knowledge that he also couldn't stop - with knowing that he has cut down so much, and even stopped for weeks/months. I think both are true, the difference being in what he learned between the two.
This one is a bit rough on me because I'm actually very proud of what he has overcome. His achievments while dealing with this have been awsome and I do struggle with his shame about it. I guess that's partly why I'm trying to understand that more.
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Bartender,
I throweth down the gauntlet..... *thlump*
For another thread can you find 1 single - just one, only one journal article challenging that alcohol dependency is a disease?
As you know I have referenced plenty from the opposing view.
I throweth down the gauntlet..... *thlump*
For another thread can you find 1 single - just one, only one journal article challenging that alcohol dependency is a disease?
As you know I have referenced plenty from the opposing view.
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
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Well...
For me...I have seen the word alcoholic evolve from the skid row bum to the family member who is suffering from a a disease.
That is a product of research and education. As mentioned...this stigma is lessened with time. As I am in recovery..I conduct myself as a valuable member of my community. I never hide my involvement with AA.
That is my small contribution to opening the door on discussion and perception.
That is a product of research and education. As mentioned...this stigma is lessened with time. As I am in recovery..I conduct myself as a valuable member of my community. I never hide my involvement with AA.
That is my small contribution to opening the door on discussion and perception.
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D has been okay with me telling friends - hell I needed their support, but he isn't really open about it. My hat goes off to you Carol, I truly believe being open is the way to change hearts and minds.
I do wish D was much more open but that's because of my pride in him - I'm SO not ashamed. I married him lock, stock and two smoking barrels knowing he is an alcoholic but he will always be my husband first and foremost and never my 'A'.
I do wish D was much more open but that's because of my pride in him - I'm SO not ashamed. I married him lock, stock and two smoking barrels knowing he is an alcoholic but he will always be my husband first and foremost and never my 'A'.
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Equuss,
As I have stated, I referenced the newsletter to show a point of view as to how the label can be damaging. If you wish to discuss labels I will be happy to.
Now as for your thrown gauntlet, you started that thread and I chose not to participate. I have been through that discussion so many times that I have exhaustedly posted every one of my opinions. But since you have asked me to reference an “authority” on the subject, I do not think it I have ever heard it put more concisely than this:
As I have stated, I referenced the newsletter to show a point of view as to how the label can be damaging. If you wish to discuss labels I will be happy to.
Now as for your thrown gauntlet, you started that thread and I chose not to participate. I have been through that discussion so many times that I have exhaustedly posted every one of my opinions. But since you have asked me to reference an “authority” on the subject, I do not think it I have ever heard it put more concisely than this:
Personally, I don't care whether or not it's a disease. All I care about is that every time in the history of my drinking career that I took one drink, something phenominal happened. There was always a second, third, fourth....etc., ad nausium. Since I stopped drinking, I stopped having alcohol related problems. If any of us were to find out that alcoholism isn't a disease, would any of us run right back out and celebrate. If the answer is no, then what the hell difference does it make, disease or not? If you were diagnosed with terminal cancer and told that the only way you could be free would be to start attending the church of your choice, would you argue about it? Drugs and alcohol kill just as sure as cancer does, and not only the person with the cancer. It kills innocent people associated with the alcoholic, slow and painful just like a cancer eats away at the body, except alcoholism eats away at families, friends, and sometimes people just out for a ride. Just find the way that suits you to get sober and stay that way. Stop worrying about penny-anti crap that doesn't matter anyway.
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Okay - I'm sorry bartender, it wasn't meant to be personal.
I just thought you held the view that 'science' debated the status of alcoholism as a disease. I'm not against people stating their opinion (as in the quote above), in that case I disagree for reasons such as, continuing research, insurance, equality, treatment options, all the things to effect future people doing what he rightly suggests - getting well. But I value it as a personal perspective, and I think the sentiment it portrays is valid.
In fairness you did reference your opinion (which I appreciated) unfortunately the author of the article itself wasn't quite as thorough.
One reason I have more trust in Journals is that they HAVE to reference - they are not allowed to just say 'science is saying....' etc. They have to stand by the evidence they claim to have and leave it referenced for scrutiny.
I just thought you held the view that 'science' debated the status of alcoholism as a disease. I'm not against people stating their opinion (as in the quote above), in that case I disagree for reasons such as, continuing research, insurance, equality, treatment options, all the things to effect future people doing what he rightly suggests - getting well. But I value it as a personal perspective, and I think the sentiment it portrays is valid.
In fairness you did reference your opinion (which I appreciated) unfortunately the author of the article itself wasn't quite as thorough.
One reason I have more trust in Journals is that they HAVE to reference - they are not allowed to just say 'science is saying....' etc. They have to stand by the evidence they claim to have and leave it referenced for scrutiny.
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Plenty of published psychiatrists argue that alcoholism is not a disease. Treatment centres are beginning to treat it as a behavourial problem. It would be misleading to indicate that science, or people of science all conclude alcoholism as a disease. It is debatable.
The validity of the term alcoholic is also debatable. Though not by me today.
I generally only get bothered by what other people say about me if I believe any of it.
The validity of the term alcoholic is also debatable. Though not by me today.
I generally only get bothered by what other people say about me if I believe any of it.
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^^^ then I would say the same - find me one single journal reference. I believe in 'the other' thread I provided plenty.
BTW - Depression, anxiety, phobias, and even alzheimers has some behavioural approaches to treatment - it has no bearing on their classification. Again, treatment is not evebn refered to in the definition (dictionary) of disease.
BTW - Depression, anxiety, phobias, and even alzheimers has some behavioural approaches to treatment - it has no bearing on their classification. Again, treatment is not evebn refered to in the definition (dictionary) of disease.
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