alky2010

Wouldn't taking a personal inventory of ones life be potentially harmful if that person suffers from low self-esteem or depression?
Why does one "lose" everything one gains if they have a 1 day slip?? I mean isn't one still doing reasonably well if they are working on reasons why they drink?
Why is it considered wrong to question certain elements of the AA program? I use to like to go to meetings but found that some people were a little upset when i had legitimate questions. The group frequently seemed to shun me more and more. I found that AA members became extremely defensive when I questioned things. Maybe thats why they tell you to, "put the cotton in your mouth."? Does this mean that I "haven't had enough"
because I don't agree with certain things? I mean I do agree with some of what AA teaches.

Lunachic

1 day slip???? For me would be weeks...of practice..and then try to decide "WHY"...I drink like I do..live like I do...screw up like I do?????

I gotta tell ya'...I would love to think...LOVE to think I could have a beer or two...today...and then see what I could learn from it...

I do know...I'm a sick person...when I drink...and still...with my few dayzz of sobriety ..I'm sick...actually...I DRINK (I think?)...because of my low self esteem..and depression...my personal inventory is coming to light...

I'm not being rude alkie...I'm scared...and when I hear I could still be REASONABLY well...if I slip a tinky bit...I may be able to work on the reason I'm a DRUNK????....I dunno..

Also:...I haven't heard the "put the cotton in your mouth" thing..I have only heard....CALL SOMEONE...ASK...Pleaze...just don't put "Drink in your Mouth"!!

Congrats on your success alkie..I have read and followed your postings..they make me think...and that's a scary thought!!!!

Take care my Friend...alkie in Oregon..Luna

Patsyd1

Luna, I just have to when listening to the wisdom in your post

Patsyd1

Alkie, I hope that you paid attention to what Luna just shared, because what she just shared with you....is the truth.

Time2Surrender

Low self-esteem is an even better reason dor a personal inventory.I beleive most people new in recovery suffer from low self-esteem.Its something you gotta work on on like many other things.Thats why they call it recovery and its a lotta hard work,but worth it.It sounds like you are fairly new to AA,so maybe you shouldnt worry about step 10 until you get there.Just take it easy one day at a time.As far as one day slips,I wouldnt know.There is no such thing as a one day slip for me.It can last weeks or months.I seen a lotta people never return from a one day slip also.Instead they got a permanant Sobriety date on a Tomb stone.

BubbaBob

My feelings on your questions, in reverse order.

Most people I know in AA would not consider it "wrong" to question certain elements. They, and I, might suggest to someone new that since whatever they had tried in attempting to gain some sobriety had not worked, and the AA program has worked for many people, the newcomer might consider that AA's ideas worked better than whatever other ideas the newcomer had. After all, the newcomer is there because previous efforts at gaining sobriety had failed to that point.

Except for a few hard a$$ed bleeding deacons that few listen to in AA, I don't know anyone that considers "a 1 day slip" as having lost all gains. As a matter of fact, my "research" showed me just how sneaky this disease is, and taught me that one of my biggest enemys was complacency.

A personal inventory need not be destructive, if you truly take a full inventory. If you owned a paint store and it was annual inventory time, you wouldn't just count all the stale dated paint, mis-mixed paint, cans that were bent, etc...you'd count ALL the paint, good and bad. Same with a personal inventory. Yes, count the bad, but count, and give yourself credit for the good. It can uplift you as well as making you aware of specific areas that need attention.

Just my opinion. Yake what you can use and leave the rest.

BubbaBob
Man plans...God laughs

Time2Surrender

I can totally relate to that one Bob.

mikee

Sometimes I have to inventory my priorities before a :
S obriety
L ost
I ts
P riority

happens

tigergirl

personally, taking inventory after a slip would be self-defeating,true the self-esteem is low so why go onto a mini-step four?why not go back to step one? it's the greatest step for me and got me into AA.;keeping it simple and being gentle with yourself:slips can happen.It's the willingness to try again which is so important.
Take care
Tiger

Greatful2004

Alky,
I think the reason people would be annoyed at a meeting if you kept questioning the concepts is because it is not a debate club. AA works for many, many people. You are there voluntarily (for the most part). You don't have to go. I wonder why you feel the need to question people about the concepts of a program that has given them their lives back?

I personally find many, many contradictions in the program. But as a rational adult, I can choose to go, or not to go. And if I do choose to go, I can take what I identify with and leave the rest.

As for the low-self esteem and personal inventory question... It is up to the individual to decide when to do a 4th step. From what I have heard, it is suggested that a person DOES NOT DO a 4th step until they have at least a year sober. Also, I believe the vast majority of people are aware that AA works best when combined with individual counseling. It is not the responsibility of AA to help you work on your self esteem. The primary purpose is to help you get SOBER. It is up to your therapist to help you with the rest of your issues.

BubbaBob

Actually AA DOES help with self esteem issues. If you believe in AA, as I do, and in the promises, as I do, then you have to believe that AA will help your self-esteem. Read the promises and tell me you think all that can happen without helping your self-esteem.

BubbaBob

Dan

Absolutely.
The promises are the Self Esteem manual 101.
All other gifts of sobriety are made visible to me because of them.

Music

Hey Alky,
What I came to AA, my self-esteem was about as low as it could get I suppose. Why wouldn't it be? The things I did when I drank weren't condusive to any degree of good self-esteem. I don't recall ever having a decent opinion of myself. I suppose that's why when I took my very first drink, I thought I'd found the answer. Depression?? What person wouldn't be depressed after years of using a depressant drug? The alcohol, coupled with the state of mind, coupled with the actions while drunk would depress anyone. The reason for taking the fourth step is to be able to see what the problem is. The booze is just the bandaide covering the real problem.
I don't subscribe to losing it all just because someone goes back out. I think it depends on my length of sobriety. If I were to drink today, I'd lose more than I care to think about. I'd probably lose my home, family, whatever job I have, but most importantly, I'd lose myself in the bottle again. In the beginning though, I'd say that a person doesn't have much to lose at least as far as material things. The question for me is, which drunk is going to be the one that kills me? People die every day of this disease. I just don't want to be one of them. I want to go out sober.
There's nothing wrong with asking questions. I asked a lot of questions myself. Nothing made a whole lot of sense to me when I first got sober. The problem is that I have to be satisfied with the answers I get. I can't act like I know it all and argue when people share their experience, strength and hope with me. That's there's!! What is there to argue about. I can't argue with someone else's reality. If a newcomer asks me a question and I give them an answer, they either accept it or they don't. If they don't, I let them go on their merry way, hoping they'll find an answer that suits them. I'm wondering if you using the word "shun" is just a little harsh. That may be what you feel, but the people may just be allowing you to live your life as you see fit. I'm not in AA to argue with people about AA principles. The principles are what they are. I hear things at meetings that aren't in the Big Book but I've also learned that what I hear has been handed down through the years by people who've been there. How can I dispute wisdom and experience. I take what works for me and file the rest. I never know when it'll come in handy.
I've used that phrase, "take the cotton out your ears and put it in your mought." I've also been told that I was "given two ears and one mouth." That means I should listen twice as much as I talk.
AA is a "fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope so they can stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety." If a newcomer wants to argue with everything I say, I'll ask them why they're at an AA meeting if they already have all the answers. I came to AA to find out how to stop drinking long enough to decide that not drinking was a good idea. I knew I didn't want to drink any more, I just didn't know how to stay stopped. Hell, I stopped many times, tried to control my drinking many times, and never had any success. I'd feel great not drinking and then start thinking I could control the drinking. After all, hadn't I been dry for a few days or a week. Surely I was smart enough and strong enough to control it now. But, all it took was one drink and I was right back in there.
By all means, ask questions. Talk about your doubts and fears. Don't rush into the fourth step in the first week or maybe even the first month, but at least work that first step and give AA some time to work. If AA doesn't work for you, try something else, or as they used to tell me, "you can have all your misery back."

TracyAgain

So, which do you practice? Telling other people to shut up or staying shut up yourself?

That stuff is just more crap parading as AA, even though it directly contradicts the Big Book itself:

Never force yourself on a newcomer
Do not contradict a newcomer's views
Never talk down to a newcomer
Do not push or prod a newcomer

etc.

Tracy

Music

Tracy,
I guess I do a little of both now days. Over the years though I've learned that there are a lot of ways to deal with people. Some folks come to AA beaten down, humiliated, and scared to death. I deal with these people a lot different than I deal with people who come to AA with a chip on their shoulder and a "know it all" attitude. Honesty is honesty. Sometimes "not" being honest with what I hear people saying is in itself, being dishonest. Those folks who don't like what I say, can do with it what they will. That's what sponsors are for. When I came to AA, nobody forced themselves on me. They did however, contradict some of my views, and they kind of lovingly pushed and prodded because that's what I needed. Left to my own devices, I wouldn't have done anything but go to meetings. That was the easier softer way but in the long run, doesn't really accomplish much. As far as talking down to someone, that's in the eye of the beholder. In these days of "political correctness", a person can hardly say anything any more without being accused of being "mean spirited" or "disrespecting" someone. In dealing with these two subjects, I refer back to what I said about a chip on the shoulder and an attitude. People who come to AA to "learn" how to get sober and stay sober, in general, don't have a problem. People who already know it all, generally speaking are sometimes offended by what they hear. My responsibility is to carry the message. I have no control over what someone does with that message.

progress

Alky, it sounds like AA is not for you. I spent over six years in the program, stopped going to meetings, and took 12 years to get back to the point I am at now. I'm not at all sure AA is for me at this time of my life, although there are several positive aspects about it.

As an analogy: Going to a evangelical church is not for me, but apparently that type of faith in God works for many people. If they like it, so be it, but I'm quite positive I'm going to be a Catholic until the day I die.

The only measure of a sobriety "program," whether within a group or by doing it solo, is: Is it working for you? If it is, great. I don't spend as much time on this board as I'd like to, but it appears that you are doing pretty well. So, as my physician says when my cholesterol is at a healthy level, "Just keep doing what you're doing."

lulu70

I just spent 20 minutes replying to this thread, and the site booted me off! So, here goes again.....

First of all, one should not attempt to do the fourth step until thoroughly working and understanding the first three steps. They are in order for a reason.

I think every alcoholic suffers from low self-esteem and depression in some form when they first come in the rooms of AA. I know I had horribly low self-esteem and was being treated for clinical depression. However, for me, doing the fourth and fifth step helped me to realize I was not as bad as I thought. There were many things on my fourth step that I had never told another human being. Putting them down on paper, in black and white, and then telling them to another person took away alot of their power. I came to realize that although I had done some pretty bad things, those things did not make me a bad person.

I don't think one loses everything if they have a 1 day slip. However, if I didn't know I would have to start over (counting the days, anyway) if I had even one little drink or drug, I know I would have had many "little" slips, instead of managing to accrue just one week short of a year of continuous sobriety. Still, have to start counting days after a slip does not mean the tools and knowledge that have been gained have suddenly been lost. Although, it does mean the tools have not really been used.

I, personally, don't know anyone who considers it wrong to question the AA program. I have a lot of questions myself. However, I do not necessarily believe that a formal AA meeting is the place to voice those questions. That is what my sponsor, and the friends I have made in AA, are for. Or the "meeting" before and after the meeting. I don't ask questions about the program itself during the meetings because I don't want to risk confusing a newcomer or causing dissent in the group.

Alky--you pose many interesting questions. Keep coming back.