Dan

What is that?
Yellow eyed, **** stained pants, gutter dwelling person?
Unemployed, agoraphobic mother using a liquor delivery service?
Fifth in the drawer office manager, having a sip because of nerves?

Someone tell me.
I gotta know.
I've got to be me


Discussion?

Phinneas

Hmm... here are some thoughts.

Alcoholism / addiction is the great equalizer. I've been told I don't LOOK like an addict! What does THAT mean? Because I drive a BMW and have a Master's degree?!? I ended up in jails. I ended up in institutions. And death was not for lack of trying. Mr. Skid Row and I have a lot more commonalities than differences.

Who WANTS to be be an alcoholic? When I was little, I didn't say, "when I grow up, I want to be an addict!" I was born that way and nothing I could've said or done would've changed that.

And, it's not the alcohol or drugs, it what the alcohol and drugs do to me that makes me an addict.

So, what is a REAL alcoholic? Well, good news, if you have a desire a stop drinking and drugging, you qualify. Grab a chair... and welcome home.

Phinny

3legacy

(((((((((Dan and JoJo))))))))))

Chy

Wife, mom, teacher, grad student.

splendra

broke,sick,with more than enough education and, discusted but, still sober.....

icecream pete

Great wife ,3 great kids (2 at university ), good business, nice home.............cant cope.

sariestruggles

Yeah, how can:
Masters degree + College instructor + Loving family +Wonderful fiance
=
One sad, pathetic girl?

Time2Surrender

Painter,Red-Neck,Recovering Alcoholic

ted

BIG BOOK PAGE 30 3RD EDITION

MOST OF US HAVE BEEN UNWILLING TO ADMIT WE WERE REAL ALCOHOLICS.
NO PERSON LIKES TO THINK HE IS BODILY AND MENTALY DIFFERENT THAN HIS FELLOWS.
THEREFORE,IT IS NOT SURPRISING THAT OUR DRINKING CAREERS HAVE BEEN CHARACTERIZED BY COUNTLESS VAIN ATTEMPTS TO PROVE WE COULD DRINK LIKE OTHER PEOPLE.
THE IDEA THAT SOMEHOW,SOMEDAY HE WILL CONTROL AND ENJOY HIS DRINKING IS THE GREAT OBSESSION OF EVERY ABNORMAL DRINKER.
THE PERSISTANCE OF THIS ILLUSION IS ASTONISHING.
MANY PERSUE IT INTO THE GATES OF INSANITY OR DEATH.

WE LEARNED THAT WE HAD TO FULLY CONCEDE TO OUR INTERMOST SELVES THAT WE WERE ALCOHOLICS.
THIS IS THE FIRST STEP IN RECOVERY.
THE DELUSION THAT WE ARE LIKE OTHER PEOPLE,
OR PRESENTLY MAY BE ,HAS TO BE SMASHED.
WE ALCOHOLICS ARE MEN AND WOMEN WHO HAVE LOST THE ABILITY TO CONTROL OUR DRINKING.
WE KNOW THAT NO REAL ALCOHOLIC EVER RECOVERS CONTROL.

..............ted real alcoholic,THANKS D.D.

Don S

It's a label we apply to ourselves or others, with no specific or widely accepted meaning. As such it may be useful, or it may be an impediment to our progress. Vince Fox published 18 definitions of alcoholism in his book, out of over 40 that he collected.

My own preference is not to use the term because it's too vague to be useful, but if pressed I'd say that it's anyone whose behavior related to alcohol makes him or her unhappy or unhealthy, or affects those around him adversely. It isn't dose-dependent, it's a function of behavior.

Don S

NoMoBeer

See page 21 in the Big Book. I underlined all the qualifications that fit me. There's a lot of red!

Personally -- Married, family guy with 4 kids, high profile sales professional (as opposed to high income ), triathlete.....and alcoholic.

Ken

Music

I apply page 21 in the Big Book to myself. That's the only definition I'm concerned with.

mikee

When graduated college I earned 66 credit hours and accumulated over a ten thousand hours of drinking, at least now i know what my major was.

Dan

Sure. Works for me most days.
From page 21...
"He is seldom mildly intoxicated. He is always more or less insanely drunk."
Question...
What about those that don't fall into that category.
What about the stay at home mom who can't manage to get through the day without a bottle of wine?
Or the plant manager who's stress level compels him to have a bottle in his desk for emergencies?
People we might never be able to categorize as insanely drunk.
Aren't their lives just as unmanageable as mine was on skid row?

2dayzmuse

"What is a real alcoholic"?

Me. I am a real alcoholic. It doesn't matter what label, term or definiton is used, I know I qualify. No matter how specific or vague the description, it doesn't matter to me. I fall between the guidelines. I more then qualify. Deep down inside, I know I have a big problem.

What matters to me is to stop the insanity. The overwhelming desire to drink takes over my better judgement. Situations or behaviors I would never enter into sober, I found myself in the middle of. Often times, not remembering how or why I got involved in the first place? What was wrong with me?

The risks taken, the irratic behavior, the stupidity? Why? Why would I do such a thing? The guilt, the embarrassment, the shame...? I would never act that way if I were in my right mind, if I were sober.

I'll just have a couple of drinks. Just a couple. How many times did I tell myself that and the next morning wake up shaking my head in disbelief and disgust from the previous nights antics? How could I do such a thing and act that way? I would jeopardize everything that meant anything to me, risking losing it all. That should be enough to make me stop, but it wasn't. I still continued to drink. Insanity. Clear and simple.

I no longer take risks and make poor choices due to alcohol. I choose to abstain. I've beaten myself up enough to surrender the notion that "I can handle a couple". My fear outweighs the risks. It isn't worth it to me.

I receive no joy, only pain from drinking. Yes, I am a real alcoholic. No matter what the definition. What matters is, "I stop the insanity". For me, that is to abstain from drinking. Life is once again worth living. Where as before, I didn't believe so. I didn't care.

Label me whatever. What a relief to be free of the burdens that have been placed on me due to my choice to drink. Today, I no longer carry those heavy burdens. It's my choice. It's the right thing to do.

I'm a mother, daughter, sister, aunt, cousin, niece and friend. Thank God, I can concentrate on being all of these things. I'm ready and available to be there anytime, anyplace, anyday. It's been along time since I could truthfully say that and mean it. I now can be reliable, responsible and believable. I'm still a real alcoholic, always will be. The difference being, I've taken control back from the cunning, baffling, powerful disease. It has been disabled and silenced. It will remain that way, as long as I don't pick up that first drink and not become complacent.

Andy F

I consider myself to have previously lost control of my drinking and I believe it is unlikely I would ever be ever to drink again with any significant control. By the latter I mean I could probably go out tonight and have a few, but I would not be able to sustain that control for very long. I get lessons about what would happen if I drank again every time I buy chocolate.

I learnt my definitions whilst in AA, but I have been open to other viewpoints for sometime.

I used to think that at some root level alcoholics were the same, perhaps we even shared a corrupted gene or cell abnormality which made us all fundamentally the same.

I think times and awareness is changing. People drink for their own reasons which may be different to mine. Some young people abusing alcohol will grow out of it. Some adults will be drinking through a phase. Not everyone who has a blackout, drives drunk or loses a job through alcohol has burnt their bridges irredeemably behind them. Some will get better without AA or a higher power.

I used to think that alcoholism was like a pregnancy test - you either are or you are not. Perhaps this is the case, but it's certainly not undisputedly proven today. It is much more likely that people become dependant on alcohol for a whole host of reasons and in a whole host of circumstances. Everyone, at a root level will be special and different. I think there are degrees of addiction, though the dependant types will not want to give up the wonder drug until there seems like no other choice. I have unlearnt a lot of my former beliefs about alcoholism and I know that I am still unlearning views that I previously took to be undisputable axioms.

In the big book the term 'real alcoholic' was used to describe someone who has burnt their bridges and cannot return to controlled drinking and whose alcoholism is beyond human aid and must therefore accept God's power.

Today in AA the term is sometimes used to denounce anyone not willing to believe in God or tow the party line, eg 'a real alcoholic must get Gods help etc.'

I am open and I have not closed the book on what I can learn about alcoholism.

jlo34

Ah, a REAL ALCOHOLIC. I and only I have the privelige to label myself that (though, apparently courts and treatment centers have that right too - from what I've heard!!).

"But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.

Here is the fellow who has been puzzling you, especially in his lack of control. He does absurd, incredible, tragic things while drinking. He is a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He is seldom mildly intoxicated. He is always more or less insanely drunk. His disposition while drinking resembles his normal nature but little. He may be one of the finest fellows in the world. Yet let him drink for a day, and he frequently becomes disgustingly, and even dangerously anti-social. He has a positive genius for getting tight at exactly the wrong moment, particularly when some important decision must be made or engagement kept. He is often perfectly sensible and well balanced concerning everything except liquor, but in that respect he is incredibly dishonest and selfish. He often possesses special abilities, skills and aptitudes, and has a promising career ahead of him. He uses his gifts to build up a bright outlook for his family and himself, and then pulls the structure down on his head by a senseless series of sprees. He is the fellow who goes to bed so intoxicated he ought to sleep the clock around. Yet early next morning he searches madly for the bottle he misplaced the night before. If he can afford it, he may have liquor concealed all over his house to be certain no one gets his entire supply away from him to throw down the wastepipe. As matters grow worse, he begins to use a combination of high-powered sedative and liquor to quiet his nerves so he can go to work. Then comes the day when he simply cannot make it and gets drunk all over again. Perhaps he goes to a doctor who gives him morphine or some sedative with which to taper off. Then he begins to appear at hospitals and sanitariums.

This is by no means a comprehensive picture of the true alcoholic, as our behavior patterns vary. But this description should identify him roughly.

Why does he behave like this? If hundreds of experiences have shown him that one drink means another debacle with all its attendant suffering and humiliation, why is it he takes that one drink? Why can't he stay on the water wagon? What has become of the common sense and will power that he still sometimes displays with respect to other matters?

Perhaps there never will be a full answer to these questions. Opinions vary considerably as to why the alcoholic reacts differently from normal people. We are not sure why, once a certain point is reached, little can be done for him. We cannot answer this riddle.

We know that while the alcoholic keeps away from drink, as he may do for months or years, he reacts much like other men. We are equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever into his system, something happens, both in the bodily and mental sense, which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop. The experience of any alcoholic will abundantly confirm this.

These observations would be academic and pointless if our friend never took the first drink, thereby setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind, rather than in his body..." pages 21-23 Big Book of AA.

This pretty well describes me. Before I got to AA, I thought of an alcoholic as a bum. After just a few short years of drinking I became this desperate, hopeless case. I didn't believe I was going to live to see my 18th birthday, let alone graduate from high school. My goals for life were gone. I drank for effect and the effect I wanted was the courage to end my life. Life was pointless as far as I was concerned. I went to ANY and ALL lengths to get drunk. I could not stop at 1. I tried controlled drinking, didn't work out. I could not stop drinking once I began until the supply was exhausted and / or passed out. I hid bottles in my car, in my room, my lockers at school. I drank before school, during school, after school, before practice, during practice, after practice, before work, during work, after work. Didn't matter what was going on or happening. I was always chasing the euphoric feeling I got from the first time alcohol "cleansed me being" or so I thought. I never was able to find it. Always paranoid about being caught, getting in trouble. I was reckless, made poor decisions. I threw cherished friendships away, cherished dreams and family away. Anything for the drink. I have since found that my -ism began long before that first drink. I lacked the coping skills necessary to deal with trauma I endured as a child. I had alcoholic behavior long before that first drink. That first drink was like an instant relaxer - but then I had to find more, get more, drink more.

Though my drinking career was cut short, I am SOOOO grateful for everyone who involved themselves in my life. I wasn't convinced at the time, in fact, I was down-right angry at the number of people who were trying to get into my business, but today, I am truly grateful that despite me, people still loved and cared for me and did all they could to help me.

Sometimes I wonder if perhaps it was just a phase...then the thought comes in that maybe I don't need to go to AA anymore...maybe one drink won't hurt (mind you, a drink was whatever container it came in, ie 1/5)...maybe this time I could control it...the lies go on. Gratefully, I know that's exactly what they are. Normal, non-alcoholic people don't plan their "next drunk". They don't justify their drinking. They don't drink excessively / repeatedly, expecting different results. They don't pray for death by "planning" a sure combo of booze and drugs to put them over-the-top. That's just pure insanity. Sober, my brain has the ability to function more like "normal" people's. Drunk, my brain just plain doesn't function, unless it's knieving my next...

So, in my book, that makes me a real alcoholic.

Thanks for the great beginning Dan!

Don S

Some definitions of alcoholic:

World Health Organization (WHO): Alcoholics are those excessive drinkers whose dependence upon alcohol has attained such a degree that it shows a noticeable mental disturbance or an interference with their bodily and mental health, their interpersonal relations, and their smooth social and economic functioning. [Alcoholics are those] who show the prodromal (warning) signs of such developments.

Jack Trimpey, Rational Recovery: [The words] "alcoholism" and "alcoholic" are folk expressions…. I will use the term "alcoholic" to refer to people who believe they are powerless over their addictions and act accordingly, and to those who call themselves "alcoholics." They are practicing the philosophy of alcoholism, just as Catholics practice the philosophy of Catholicism. I prefer the correct term "alcohol dependence" to describe the problem of persistent, heavy drinking…

Claudia Black: The alcoholic is a person who, in his drinking, has developed a psychological dependency on the drug alcohol coupled with a physiological addiction…. They are people who neither have the ability to consistently control their drinking, nor who can predict their behavior once they start to drink.

American Psychiatric Association (ASA) (DSM-III-R): ….There are three main patterns of Alcohol Abuse or Dependence. The first consists of regular daily intake of large amounts; the second, of periods of sobriety interspersed with binges of daily heavy drinking lasting for weeks or months. It is a mistake to associate one of these particular patterns exclusively with "alcoholism." Some investigators divide alcoholism into "species"…[such as the] so-called gamma alcoholism…that is common in the United States and conforms to the stereotype of the alcoholism seen in people who are active in Alcoholics Anonymous…[and that] involves problems with "control."

Herbert Fingarette: Heavy drinkers [alcoholics] are people who have over time made a long and complex series of decisions, judgments, and choices of commission and omission that have coalesced into a central activity…. Instead of viewing heavy drinkers as the helpless victims of a disease, we come to see their drinking as a meaningful, however destructive, part of their struggle to live their lives.

CAPTAINZING2000

A real alcoholic

someone that's got a second chance at life. Someone that's been freed from the chains of alcoholism. It's a person that's learned to love himself again. It's someone that gives thanks to his creator just for waking up each day. It's a person that has let self seeking slip away. It's a person that gets to a meeting early to help set up, to greet the newcomer because, he or she still remembers what it was like. It's the person that stays behind and cleans up. It's the person that offers a ride to someone that can't drive.


It's a person that can't remember the last bad day they've had.


It's you and you and you and you and you

takes all of us to complete the circle


love


chris

3legacy

Someone I am supposed to be seeking out?