jonsmith

This is to all you drunks and druggies-
You've got 3 choices:
1) Continue to use. To hell with the consequences!
2) Join a program so you can attempt to become a better functioning human being that doesn't want to get high anymore. In AA you'll learn how to stay sober for only one day at a time by working a religious program with other tentatively abstinent people. You'll learn how to become a walking time bomb that is always on the verge of taking another drink. With SMART recovery pop-psychology takes the place of AA's higher power but you'll still need to get support from meetings attended by other people who are 'fighting the same battle' as yourself.
3) Go to the library and check out a copy of Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Abuse. Read it. Make a commitment to never use again. Use Addictive Voice Recognition Technique to conquer your own addictive voice that keeps convincing you to use against your own better judgment. Immediately feel the positive effects of knowing that the 'battle' is over. Continue to recognize the addictive voice whenever it surfaces and observe it's complete inability to control your actions ever again. Become really HAPPY!
Go out and be a normal human being that doesn't have a substance abuse problem. Go out and pursue happiness and fulfillment in whatever way you choose to do it! It's that simple! Don't spend a dime or go to boring and counter-productive meetings for the rest of your life. You'll be CURED.
-jonsmith

PS- It sounds simple because it is. Any thought or voice that tries to tell you otherwise is the addictive voice.

Pickle

Dear Jon,

In reading your posts, I have come to the conclusion, that you are totally void of compassion. There is no lack in AA. Look up the word Agape.

Keep on stiring the pot and you will end up in the stew!

Pickle

muffininabadmood

That may have worked for you and many others, jon, and I do see some merit in it. I don't see why the aggressive pushing in your posts, though. It seems like you have something riding up your tush! Some people like the group support and spiritual help that is offered in programs like AA, and some people don't. What's the big deal?

I see that this board has an awful lot of pushing one's own ideals and beliefs onto others. I think we should all remember to use "I" as much as possible, and try not to use "YOU". And perhaps we should leave out the command form ("go to... read the... don't do... you must..." etc.) and try to use the suggestive form ("perhaps you could... maybe xyz would help... what helped me was..." etc.)

[This message has been edited by muffininabadmood (edited April 29, 2002).]

jonsmith

Pickles, you've come to an erroneous conclusion. I'm full of compassion, hope, and charity. I value individuals above cults. You don't.
How long has it been since you've uttered a word that's not AA approved? Why do you attack the character of people who are critical of AA? You sound like a cult member and you frighten normal people with your false benevolance and tolerance.
This is not an AA forum. Hang out there and stick to your slogans and cliches!
-js

jonsmith

Muffin,
I think we'll all be O.K. without your condenscending ettiquette lessons.
It's my belief that AA has helped no one. AA turns competent human beings, desperate for a simple way to quit drinking, into chronic, incurable, powerless groupies. Once convinced , they soon hear that they are under the AA curse of "jails,insanity,and death" if they decide to leave the program. Any AA member knows that's the absolute, unequivical truth.
I can't wait for your denials!
-js

margo

Jon - you profess yourself to be a Christian. You sound very UN-Christian in the way you respond to people with your snide remarks. Why don't you go back to your Rational Recovery forum and post there, if the founder will let you. Or maybe an anger management program would be helpful.

chronic

Jon,

Just curious, since you seem to generate so much negative reactions here, why do you continue to post. Are you hoping for that one person who will see the RR light?

I went to the RR discussion forum, and noticed that you post with a different username there. I read maybe a dozen of the posts in which people mentioned frequently negative opinions about 12 step programs. I did not see any post from people oriented to 12 steps stating negative opinions about RR.

I did not know there were so many people who had had such negative experiences with 12 step recovery programs. However, I've also met alot of people who have had positive experiences with 12 step programs.

Is it your opinion that people with positive experiences are brain-washed. If they are, yet feel they have found peace and serenity with 12-step, does it really matter? Haven't they still made a change in their life for the better? No longer using, feeling better about themselves, and not creating destructiveness within their lives?

[This message has been edited by chronic (edited April 30, 2002).]

margo

Hey Chronic - I also checked out the RR website and the reason that you probably did not see any posts from people oriented to 12 steps stating negative opinions about RR is because the founder unilaterally reserves the right to delete any messages that he deems unfit. I also noted that homosexuality is referred to as an "addiction" that can also be overcome with addictive voice recognition. Go figure. Hope you are continuing to do well.

[This message has been edited by margo (edited April 30, 2002).]

chronic

MorningGlory,

Yes, I saw that and thought it was strange that that individual was banned from posting unless it was oriented to RR's way of thinking.

Margo,

Thanks, I am continuing to do well.

I also noticed that Jon, who posts under DonH I think on the RR site stated that he will speak out against AA every chance he gets.

Maybe, HE, should be banned from this board. LOL

mr2blue

I think that whatever works for someone is what they should do. A.A. happens to work for me. Our RR friend said "Don't spend a dime or go to boring and counter-productive meetings for the rest of your life." I find A.A. is neither boring or counter-productive but that's just my opinion. I've learned some valuable lessons in A.A. and one of them is to not let others opinions take up too much space in my head.

------------------
mr2blue

jonsmith

MorningGlory and Chronic,
Did you notice with your keen observational skills that there are over 300 letters of negative opinions about RR posted with replies on the RR board? I guess not.
When you say you've been to a website and then you spread false information about it I think that's called lying. What do you think?
Here are the names I've posted under:
donh
jonsmith
differencesrgood
frodo
I've posted on these websites:
Rational.org
Soberrecovery
online.recovery
My posts and my views have remained the same.

Can't you AA members play on the AA forum and leave non-cult members alone? You can't tell me you have "serenity" if you're chasing me around and attacking my character simply because I'm anti-AA. According to your group's doctrines you should treat me like a sick person and love me until I love myself. Pray for me. Show me the way it works by your own actions! All you've shown anyone who happens to read these posts is that you're extremely defensive and insecure.
You can do better, can't you?

-frodo,donh,jonsmith,differencesrgood,buckwheat,spi derman,frontwardsbill.

Ann

Are you nuts? Just curious...well not very
Yawn

Ann (the only name I use on or off the board)

[This message has been edited by anns (edited May 01, 2002).]

margo

All together now...."QUACK QUACK!!!!"

[This message has been edited by margo (edited May 01, 2002).]

Morning Glory

Dear Jon,
I didn't come up with this by reading posts. I was just believing that the post below was the truth. I guess I was mistaken.I guess it was Mr. Jack Trimpey who was lying when he said he would delete the post.
And I am not an AA member. I don't jump into groups as quickly as you do. I follow my own program, just between me and God. I just happened to find a whole bunch of wonderful people here. I'm here because of them, not AA.
You have a long way to go before you can claim that RR is even working for you. A month and a half is just not going to cut it. Come back later.
You have to remember, I've been in the recruitment stage. Just where you are. The only difference is that you are motivated by hate. You don't know it yet, but hate is what is keeping you from drinking right now and causing you to recruit. You are blaming AA for your inability to quit drinking for 16 years. It's time to take responsibility for your own choices and actions for those 16 years.
I guess you might say that in a round about way, this 12 step group is still keeping you from drinking. So keep comming back with all your hate, It works! And whether you know it or not, you are still sitting in one of those chairs. You come to meetings each time you post and vent to all of us. So I guess you are still a member of AA too, and just don't know it yet.

I quote
"The 12-step proselytizer recruiting for the Codependency Club has been ejected from the BBS.
We have no responsibility to persons violating the terms of use clearly explained in the registration procedure.

Genuwine is invited to re-register if interested in making proper use of the Rational Recovery Discussion Forums.

This folder will be deleted in a day or so."

Jack Trimpey

chronic

Jon,

I said I had read only a dozen or so posts. The ones I read stated alot of negative opinions about AA and 12 step. I am not offended by them.

I don't think you answered either of my questions. Which is why do you keep posting here, and your opinion about people being brainwashed by AA and 12 step. Meaning that even if we are, if we are living better lives because of it, isn't that better than being a slave to drugs?

I don't think I am spreading lies about anything. Just curious what all the hostility is about. I am open to other ideas about recovery. I apologize if you thought I was attacking your character. I was striving to be neutral, and only state what I had observed from visiting the RR forum. That's why I mentioned that I didn't know people had had such negative experiences with AA and 12 step.

I will look for those 300 posts. Thanks for letting me know.

[This message has been edited by chronic (edited May 01, 2002).]

nico

The reason for the negative response to AA by RR is because RR is against the disease concept and against needing a support group. Based on that, it follows that RR would criticize any philosophy that states the opposite. However, criticism and attack are two different things, so people should use and choose words carefully. I read a very interesting book called "The Co-dependency Conspiracy" which was an excellent but not scathing critique on the recovery group movement today, along with Stanton Peele's "The Diseasing of America."

I agree with much of what RR says about self recovery but I also followed my own spiritual path. RR is not against faith or religious belief. I agree that everyone is different with different needs. Perhaps what Jon objects to is the absolutism that many AA members "preach." However, absolutism occurs in all belief systems so I suppose Jon is preaching from his view point as he feels the need.

Personally, I would rather be "self recovered" and not separate myself as an "alcoholic" from the rest of mankind as someone who needs a special program as opposed to "normal?" people. Everyone has "demons" of one form or another in varying degrees as I read from one of Jon's other posts. That is why a committment to abstain forever was very empowering for me and a moral committment as well.

As for "one day at a time" with or without alcohol - in the bigger picture of human existence all we have is the moment anyway to live and do our best and it's good to be aware of that.

[This message has been edited by nico (edited May 02, 2002).]

smoke gets in my eyes

Hi Nico...

Laugh if you want to. Your user name makes me want a cigarette. So does mine. (5 weeks, 5 days!!!!)

Smoke

jonsmith

What is it ,or who is it, that I hate? I'm just so darn sick I don't know. Help!

Thank you all for your love and concern for a fellow former drunk. Without you and your support I'd probably be drunk today. I have a disease that takes over my voluntary muscle control and makes me drink. It's just so darn scary!!!

Ann, I'm very proud of you for using one name. That's really neat, I guess. We're all completely anonymous in cyberspace you knucklehead. Oh yeah, to answer your question that you're not really interested in an answer to: I'm not 'nuts' but I would be if I ever set foot in another AA meeting.

HUGS-frodo,jonsmith, whatever else strikes my fancy.
As far as abstinence goes, all I have is today, yesterday is history and tomorrow is but a dream.



[This message has been edited by jonsmith (edited May 02, 2002).]

Morning Glory

You don't ever have to set foot in another AA meeting, but you can come here for support and be around people who care about people. I don't go to meetings, but I have had sooooo much help from comming to this board. I had a hard time getting the support that I need and have done everything alone for about 20 years. Trusting others was so hard for me. I've found that I'm safe here. I read 2 of your posts on the other board and could see that you were a kind person who was trying to be free. I've tried everything to get the help I need. I never gave up. I will never give up. I found that God is faithful and the road is rough. Nothing worth having comes easy. I'm afraid all the time. I've learned to feel my feelings and know the feelings won't kill me. I will come out on the other side every time. When I'm done facing everything that is in me, I will be free, and that will only be the beginning of the good stuff. It is hard to face the truth and be accountable for your own behaviors and choices. The overwhelming feelings that surface are hard to deal with. You can't run from the feelings, you have to go through them and out the other side.

Hugs

MG

[This message has been edited by Morning Glory (edited May 02, 2002).]

jonsmith

MG,
That was a really nice post! Thank you.
I've done me best to only criticize the aspects of AA that were harmful to me and I believe are harmful to others. If AA was only attended by people who freely choose to be there, and if people were not told to believe that they have an incurable disease that requires a lifetime of meetings, I'd have absolutely nothing to say. However, approximately a million people last year alone received a "nudge from the judge" (as it's affectionately referred to in AA meetings) and were then exposed to a spiritual/religious program that has an agenda much larger than simple abstinence and the end of addiction. It’s not that a spiritual/religious program is bad! It’s the fact that our government is violating the separation of church and state that is wrong, wrong, wrong!!!