carl

hi,
dont know where to start....
ive come to realise that im an alcoholic.
im trying my hardest to stop drinking and the periods inbetween my drinking bouts are starting to get longer(the longest ive been without a drink is 6 weeks) but ive found that when im trying not to drink i find little excuses to have a drink ie. bad day at work, arguement with someone ect ect.
thing is i was was doing well, id lasted two weeks without a drink and i really was feeling that i was going to do well this time and then i had some genuine bad news, a real excuse to have a drink, so im writing this note half way to being drunk and hating myself for it, i know im not going to stop until i pass out.
tomorrow i will start again and try to stop drinking but im expecting that the bad news i had may get worse. how can i stop using anything bad that happens to me as an excuse to get drunk?

differencesrgood

The behavior of addicted people is unbelievable, in the sense that they drink and use drugs as if their lives depended upon it, and the reasons they give for their preposterous behavior are equally unbelievable, i.e., a mysterious disease process for which the only treatment is divine intervention. In other words, addicted people present themselves as freaks, talking the odd dialect of step-talk. After all, who else would say “I may drink again! After all you know about the use of alcohol, you might actually use your hands to pour another down your throat? What the hell is wrong with you? And don't give me this disease crap, because you're telling me you don't know right from wrong, that after all your experience you can't figure out that for you it's morally wrong to drink. Is this what you tell your family, after all the **** you've put them through, that you still may decide to have a little drinkey-poo if you really feel like it? After all you put them through, don't you think they deserve permanent abstinence from you? You better go hide in a group of others like yourself, buddy, so you don't look like such a freak. At least it’ll look like you're under adult supervision, even though they're all just like you.
Or, you could make a BIG PLAN to never drink again and use a simple and logical cognitive strategy called Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. It’s explained pretty well in the thread below (You might want to try this). Do yourself a favor and go to rational.org and take the Crash Course on AVRT and then post your response on this thread. I totally believe that no matter what your history, you can abstain from alcohol for the rest of your life and become the person you have always wanted to be. Let me know how you're doing after you take the crash course! Keep an open mind and don't let the AA folks convince you they have the only or best way for YOU to live the rest of your life!
-DB

Roven_Rev

Carl,

Welcome to our family. I am sorry for the comments of the post above me.

I understand how you are feeling. It sounds like something terrible is going on in your life right now. A crisis no doubt. Carl, we don't come into this thing knowing all the answers. You're relapsing under pressure, because that's what we do. We all needed to get help. You are reaching out for that help. And we want to help you. I would recommend you go to the General Recovery, NA, or Christians In Recovery forums on this Board. Pernell Johnson moderates General Recovery and NA, I co-moderate General Recovery and Christians In Recovery. There are also many other loving, caring people who can come along side you at this very sensitive time in your journey.

God Bless you Carl.

[This message has been edited by Roven_Rev (edited April 19, 2002).]

differencesrgood

Carl,
I apologize for the above post. It seems that the moderator would have you believe that your drinking is a result of your ‘disease.’ He also tells you that drinking is a logical and appropriate response to unfavorable events in your life. That is so incredibly inappropriate and untrue! I truly apologize for that type of ‘loving’ and 'deadly' counsel being thrown at you when you’re clearly crying out for a way to quit drinking.
The moderator does not believe in your ability to make a moral decision and stick with it. The ‘disease’ theory will rob you of every shred of self-respect and leave you with one alternative: A simple spiritual path only available through practicing the 12-steps and going to endless meetings.

Carl, that path might be the one you take, and if it is I wish you well. My experience has shown me that AA wasn’t a program of recovery for me. It was an indoctrination into a belief system that left me three choices:
1)Accept everything I was told by other drunks in the program no matter how objectionable the advice was and try not to drink ‘just for today.’
2)Get good and drunk because after all “that’s what alcoholics do.”
or
3)Kill myself because both of the above were totally objectionable to me.

I don’t apologize for telling you what I believe is true. I truly believe in your ability to quit drinking for the rest of your life. You already possess all of the moral character you need to successfully stop drinking for the rest of your life, if that is truly what you want!

Moderator: You're a Christian. I'm not aware of His mention of drunkenness as a symptom of psychological duress or deficiency, or that drunkenness is anything but sin, from which one can and should repent; otherwise He would not have suggested repentance. Christian repentance is probably the most solitary, individualistic, private transformation imaginable. It is a wonderful coincidence that the stories of self-recovery upon which AVRT is based correspond more closely with the miracle of Christian moral regeneration than with the addiction treatment paradigm. You doubt the ability of addicted people to make a moral judgment and use their God-given ability to abstain from alcohol and other drugs. I suggest that you might have faith in your fellow beings, rather than upon doctrines derived from a couple of irresolute drunks that just happened to become popular in the 20th century A.D..
I love God sir, not A.A..
-DB

Roven_Rev

Clever tactic.. You'll not get a rise out of me today.

[This message has been edited by Roven_Rev (edited April 20, 2002).]

chronic

Hey DB,

Why don't you lighten up. Most of you Rational Recovery people post some of the most hostile things on this board. Get a life. If you don't have something positive to say, well you know the rest. Tough love is one thing, blatant criticism of a way of life many have found to be effective is another.

JT

And in the meantime there is a newcomer out the who is reaching out who doesn't need to be caught in a theoretical discusion on the merits of opposing methods of recovery. GEEEEZE...

AA works! Slips are caused by the insanity of the DISEASE....willpower CAN work but for millions it hasn't so they seek recovery in the program of Alcoholics Annonymous. Who can fault that?

Chronic....Be sure to come back!
Paula

[This message has been edited by Just Tired (edited April 20, 2002).]

smoke gets in my eyes

Hi Carl!
Welcome to the recovery forum!

I spent a lot of years waiting for a good time to quit smoking. After this job, after Christmas, after Dad gets out of the hospital... whatever. Life keeps throwing us curve balls. If you think of those as a good reason to drink, how will you be able to stop? I'd still be smoking if I hadn't decided that there are NO good reasons to smoke.

Choose the recovery method that you find comfortable and reasonable. The bottom line in all methods of recovery is your commitment to change. That's the vanilla ice cream. You might like yours with brownies, fudge and cherries. Somebody else might like theirs with caramel and oreos. Some like it plain. Me? I hang out on the alanon and naranon pages here so obviously I like banannas and nuts.

Again, welcome new friend.
Smoke

differencesrgood

I tried to totally fair and only speak from my real life experience. I will always try to let addicts know that I believe they can get well without becoming AA members. What in heaven's name is wrong with that (unless you believe that AA is the only way)??????? If any of you caring and concerned human beings (who only want what’s BEST for Carl) can tell me what's wrong with quitting alcohol first and forever before deciding how he wants (or if he wants) to lead a spiritual life, please DO!

Christ would tell Carl to repent and drink no more. Are you sure you know a better way than that? Do you think AA has become Christ’s voice on earth? Do you think that because you believe in the AA way of life every other addict who's overcome the addiction a different way should bow to you?
Just remember, Christ rocked a lot of boats in his time!
-DB

differencesrgood

"Slips are caused by the insanity of the DISEASE....willpower CAN work but for millions it hasn't so they seek recovery in the program of Alcoholics Annonymous. Who can fault that?" - Paula

I didn't say WILLPOWER ALONE! Read about AVRT. Take the crash course. It's not willpower alone that I'm talking about!!! Would you people please respond to what I say and not what you imagine I must think? I clearly stated what it was about AA that I found objectionable and how it effected my life. If using AVRT was a waste of time in your life for a number of years and led you to continued drinking, then say so! That would be valuable information for all of us. Are you suffering from contempt prior to investigation? Why are you threatened by a point of view that is based on real life experience? Stop and think about that for more than a milli-second.

[This message has been edited by differencesrgood (edited April 20, 2002).]

margo

Differences - the only one who seems threatended by a point of view, from what I've read so far, is you. Why all the hostility? If one thing works for you, great. If something different works for someone else, great. We're here to help each other by sharing our experince, whatever it may be. I have never yet read anything on these boards that tells someone that one way is better than another. What you will find here is a lot of very loving, supportive individuals trying to help other people by sharing their experience in a positive way, no matter what method was used to gain that experience. The key word here is respect. If you want to be a jerk, go do it somewhere else.

Carl - welcome to the forum. Please keep coming back.

[This message has been edited by margo (edited April 20, 2002).]

Don W

Hi Carl, Welcome to the site. Just like any program you will hear many points of view. I am new to recovery myself. I will reach 60 days in 2 more days. I have had some success in the past (5) years with AA. I have had other periods of sobriety but, today they don't matter. They are gone. I am not an expert by any means, if I was I wouldn't be here. I can only share what experince I have had over the years. One thing I have tried to do is have an open mind. I have had some contact with many ( Sadly, to many )programs ideas and opinions on alcoholism/addiction. One of the things I was told back at the start 1982, was to listen to everything and take what you need.
The fact is not eveything works for everyone
but, when you are new you don't know. At one time or other I have been involved with all the programs you may have read on these boards the last few days. What ever you want to call what I have I have had both success and failure with all these programs. I have had most luck when I used parts of all of them. What ever program I choose is better than no program. I failed when I didn't use anything. In my opinion every program brings something to the table. I was at the Brocton VA hospital 7 days into my recovery. Although they have a program they ecourage participation in others. The VA is able to help me with some of the many issues I have.
I never know where help is going to come, friend or stranger. I don't know the stanger so, if I close the door he can't help me. Example, I am an Epicopalian, while at the VA I asked if the chaplin could stop by. I was in a locked ward and couldn't choose. Of course I expected either a chalpin from my own church or maybe someone from the Methodist Church. When Rev. Salisbury arrived with booklets from Norman Vincent Peale, The RBC Ministries etc. I said to myself " Great some Rev. from God only knows what church is going to try and save me." I look back and have to laugh. Here I was in a locked ward of the VA hospital. The first few days I could only wear PJ's, I had to sign out a razor to shave. They checked my tray for the knife and fork. And I am worried that someone from a different church was going to try and save me. Just the night before I was praying to God to send me some help any help. Well I have to tell you Rev. Salisbury turned out to be the most helpful person there. I would read the booklets and everyday he found time to drop buy and we would discuss it. And then he asked if I would like to pray with him. I found myself holding his hand praying. Carl, I went on a little bit but, I wanted to share with you my hope that you will find peace what ever program. Just think of it a a big buffet. Nobody expects you to eat some of every selection but, also if there is a selection you never tried you can try a taste. If you don't like it there are other selections. I'll close with " sometimes you also have to pick and choose the battles to fight. Sometimes in my case the biggest victory I achieve is the battle I choose not to fight.
I hope this makes sense. I reread it and it sounds OK, But then again I'm not sure of me sometimes ( ha ha ). Don W
P.S. This is only my experence. I am not taking sides. Most of all please don't call me names. Please, if that is your intent I wish you well but, don't respond. I have been very nervous about posting due to the attacks I have read.


[This message has been edited by Don W (edited April 20, 2002).]

Ann

Carl -
Welcome!!!!

I'm usually on another board too, but when I stopped by and read this one, I felt I would like to say just two things:

1. These boards are rarely as confrontatious as this one appears right now.

2. Re-read all of the above posts and decide who is at better peace with himself in his recovery and who is perhaps sober but hostile, angry, insulting and, quite frankly obnoxious. (I think they call that type of person a "dry drunk" regardless of the program that got him that sober).

In more than one, I see serenity, and in the other I see Visa $$$ (check rr and see for yourself - I have no reason to lie to you)

I don't care if anyone?? chooses to attack me too, like he did all the other. to you, sir, I say Quack Quack.

Carl, we love you and will pray for you. I believe that you can do it with a little help from your friends, and I'll let you decide who your friends are here.

Good Luck and God Bless

Hugs

Ann

differencesrgood

No criticism of AA will be tolerated on this board. If criticism is found please go ahead and follow it up with a post about the blasphemer’s anger/lack of serenity:
“…who is perhaps sober but hostile, angry, insulting and, quite frankly obnoxious. I think they call that type of person a "dry drunk" regardless of the program that got him that sober.” Throw in something about greed or profiteering for good measure- “I see Visa $$$ (check rr and see for yourself - I have no reason to lie to you).”
Attacks on character are kind! Criticism of AA is evil:
“the only one who seems threatended by a point of view, from what I've read so far, is you. Why all the hostility? If one thing works for you, great. If something different works for someone else, great. We're here to help each other by sharing our experince, whatever it may be. I have never yet read anything on these boards that tells someone that one way is better than another. What you will find here is a lot of very loving, supportive individuals trying to help other people by sharing their experience in a positive way, no matter what method was used to gain that experience. The key word here is respect. If you want to be a jerk, go do it somewhere else.”-Margo
Hey Margo,
What was it that I said? Quote me please! Did I call anyone a ‘jerk’? You should be more careful or you’ll damage my self-esteem. That might cause me to ‘relapse’ against my own will! I’ve offered an alternative that works! Don’t attack my character because I don’t bow to Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson.
Would you peaceful and serene folks please admit that spirited is entirely different from angry?
I truly love each and every one of you.

Doppelganger

Quote you? Please, Margo... allow me.

"You better go hide in a group of others like yourself, buddy, so you don't look like such a freak. At least it’ll look like you're under adult supervision, even though they're all just like you."

"I suggest that you might have faith in your fellow beings, rather than upon doctrines derived from a couple of irresolute drunks that just happened to become popular in the 20th century A.D.. "

There is also a difference between spirited and disrespectful.

differencesrgood

Okay, you found an example. That was part of my 'tough-love' wake-up call. It sounded good at the time, but in retrospect I guess I see how AA members could take some offense.
Sorry about that. I'll be nice. Anyway, you can point to me as an example of being-'Dry, but not emotionally sober.'-or some other such nonsense. I really do love you all!

Doppelganger

I am not an AA member. I was also offended. One need not belong to a specific spiritual organization to find cruelty and malice offensive.

Jon

Pop-Quiz: What's the most used method to stop drinking? (answer below)

Well friends, the fact is that we are a spirited bunch (no pun intended, really). As such, we gots O'pinions by the barrel. (again, not intended). In the course of stating said opinions it is quite normal to be extremely biased towards "our side." That's ok, because that's where experience, strength and hope come from. Our experience. our strength. Our hope. You see, if i got sober at Betty Ford I would have great things to say aboout the place. If I relapsed right after dropping 30k there my comments probably woulldnt be so kind. Wherever we get sober is the best place. Wherever we failed is the worst.

What seperates 12 step from all of the rest is a policy of inclusion. No dues or fees. Rules, but only if you want to follow them. At it's core just a group of drunks comisserating. The god thing, while turning some away, is also optional. There are dozens of We Agnostic groups.

RR, Smart and others have something to offer as well. I have no experience with these groups, so I will not comment,

Fact is that whatever my path of recovery,it had better be My Choice. Yes. A choice. I have choosen the twelve step fellowships. Why a choice? Because I must take responsibility for my recovery. Just as I must take responsibility for my addiction. (At the very least, my actions in addiction.) If I dont take responsibility for the path I choose then it's always someone/something eles's fault when it fails. If I "have" to go to AA and I drink again, well...you know the story. But if I make a concious decision to attend/join AA I have "bought in." It really is about personal responsibility no matter how you look at it. Am I or arent I? Will I or won't I?

For every type of drunk or druggie out there, help, and support, is available. But you have to get out of bed and walk out the door. Go ahead and look around a little. We had our favorite bars, dealers, neighborhoods, routines, drinks and drugs. We sought these out very meticulously. We absolutely KNEW where we wanted to be and with whom. Time to use those same skills, but for a different purpose.

Again, to the newcomer-look around a little. Poke your head in doors and ask questions. Go to meetings, read literature (they ALL have literature) But don't wait too long to dive in to one of the many groups/organizations/fellowships that help drunks and druggies not drink or use today.

Remember our test?
Pop-Quiz: What's the most used method for people to stop drinking?

Answer: They just stop.

I couldn't do it that way. I needed help. I found it. So can you.

------------------
Be well, and have a great 24...

JT

Jon's

So when did the courts start to mandate 12 steps? It seems as tho alot of the RR aversion to AA stems from that very fact?

I read a post over there from a person who had to fight the courts to choose another form of recovery/abstinence.

Just wondering,
Paula

Paulie

Carl -
I hope you continue to read these posts. I know this is a slogan that I learned in meetings, but it applys - Take what you want, and leave the rest.
I got clean with a 12 step program, but that does not mean that is the only way. I attented a memorial service yesterday for a friend that attened the same program that I did, but he drank again and died. We are all different and different things will work for different people. The most important thing I think is that you don't give up on yourself. Know that you are important! It is about self respect and self esteem of which I had none when I was using. With these things you can suceed. Addiction takes these things away from us. Believe in yourself, if you slip and fall, get back up! We can all believe in different things but I have been a part of this forum for a short time now and the reason that I keep coming back and reading and occasionaly responding like now, is because deep inside we all want to be "a part of" and here we are. We share with each other, sometimes with hostility, which in my opinion we should not, but we are human and it happens. the bottom line is reach out, I don't speak at meetings very often, my heart pounds through my chest, I can talk one on one for hours but at group level I had a hard time. Last night after the memorial service, I went to meeting, and I opened my mouth, I reached out and yes, my heart was pounding out of my chest, but when I left there I felt great. That is what I had to do for myself. And reaching out on this forum last week when my friend died was a good thing for me also. You need to reach out in a way that is good for you. You will find that way, if you have faith in yourself. Don't listen to hostility, listen to your heart.
God Bless - Pauline