You might want to do this.
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You might want to do this.
AVRT is an acronymn for Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. It's a simple, elegant technique to take control over the part of yourself that desires to drink no matter what the cost. There is no such thing as an 'alcoholic'. Some people can drink more than others and when they do they sometimes develop a dependency to alcohol. They are not victims of a disease that condemns them to drink. The primitive pleasure center of the brain begins to send out the message to the neocortex that it needs more alcohol to survive. AVRT is easily learned (go to the rational.org website and take the crash course) and will end your addiction for the rest of your life. Abstinence is the answer. Once you no longer drink you're free to live your life however you want to live it! You're a normal person that doesn't ever drink alcohol!
If you're thinking that this is too simple, that you're an alcoholic and always will be, that you need support groups or pop psychology, you are hearing your primitive pleasure center setting you up to drink again in the future. You call your primitive pleasure center whatever you want, as long as you identify it seperately from the part of you that never wants to drink again. Most people agree that 'beast' fits the bill, but if that name bothers you call it whatever makes sense to you. It's recognizing that 'it ' isn't really you, that all it wants is to drink no matter what the cost, that's the key to defeating 'it' and becoming securely abstinent for the rest of your life. You can completely recover from your dependence on alcohol!!! You will be FREE!!!
If you're thinking that this is too simple, that you're an alcoholic and always will be, that you need support groups or pop psychology, you are hearing your primitive pleasure center setting you up to drink again in the future. You call your primitive pleasure center whatever you want, as long as you identify it seperately from the part of you that never wants to drink again. Most people agree that 'beast' fits the bill, but if that name bothers you call it whatever makes sense to you. It's recognizing that 'it ' isn't really you, that all it wants is to drink no matter what the cost, that's the key to defeating 'it' and becoming securely abstinent for the rest of your life. You can completely recover from your dependence on alcohol!!! You will be FREE!!!
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by SentByGod:
[B]Yep, could have gone with what you say about 20 years ago, however, I would have never found God.
As for YOUR understanding of Alcoholism, I suggest you check out the AMA. You may change your tune.
Hi,
Do you think that because I am abstinent without hanging out in AA, I can't have a relationship with God? That's a strange idea!
Did you know that the Disease Model of addiction has no basis in scientific fact? Have you stopped to think that the reason it's called a disease is so that insurance companies will pay to treat it? Did you know that the DSMV-IV does not have a diagnosis of alcoholism in it? Alcohol dependency and alcohol abuse are listed. I know that humans can become dependent on alcohol. Once you abstain you are no longer dependent on it. The Big Book says in plain english that the problems associated with alcohol use wouldn't exist if the person would abstain from drinking, and that therefore the problem centers in the mind. AVRT is a simple technique to deal with the problem that centers in the mind!
Spirituality and the mysteries of the universe can be explored, practiced, worshipped, whatever... but why say that AA is the only way to get there?
I'll look forward to your response!
Jon
[B]Yep, could have gone with what you say about 20 years ago, however, I would have never found God.
As for YOUR understanding of Alcoholism, I suggest you check out the AMA. You may change your tune.
Hi,
Do you think that because I am abstinent without hanging out in AA, I can't have a relationship with God? That's a strange idea!
Did you know that the Disease Model of addiction has no basis in scientific fact? Have you stopped to think that the reason it's called a disease is so that insurance companies will pay to treat it? Did you know that the DSMV-IV does not have a diagnosis of alcoholism in it? Alcohol dependency and alcohol abuse are listed. I know that humans can become dependent on alcohol. Once you abstain you are no longer dependent on it. The Big Book says in plain english that the problems associated with alcohol use wouldn't exist if the person would abstain from drinking, and that therefore the problem centers in the mind. AVRT is a simple technique to deal with the problem that centers in the mind!
Spirituality and the mysteries of the universe can be explored, practiced, worshipped, whatever... but why say that AA is the only way to get there?
I'll look forward to your response!
Jon
Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: That's what I'd like to know.
Posts: 2,416
Beware Jon,
If you want to get into a battle of documentation, you're going to lose.
This is part of the National Instiute of Health's Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Division's mission statement.
(NIAAA): One of the National Institutes of Health, NIAAA’s mission is to “conduct research focused on improving the treatment and prevention of alcoholism and alcohol-related problems to reduce the enormous health, social, and economic consequences of this disease.”
It might also occur to you, that if insurance companies could get together and disclaim alcoholism as a disease, they would. And if there was a strong argument, they could. They're not going to pay for anything they don't have to!
I just got back from looking at several sites, both AMA and sites set up by doctors (members of the AMA), where the word alcoholism is thrown around like rice at a wedding. Also on one site alcoholism was specifically defined as "alcohol dependency". It won't take you much web cruising to find these. Just use American/ Medical /Dictionary as your keywords. A whole bunch of doctors and the AMA think there is such a thing as alcoholism. Semantics are against you.
Frankly the definition of addiction as disease is uncomfortable to me. No matter how much one may be predisposed to use, there is certainly an element of simple choice involved. As you noted, AA stresses this fact as well.
Also, I have to say that I would simply love that AVRT thing if it didn't come attached to people who want to knock 12 step programs. 12 step programs aren't for everybody. It says that right in the front of the book. If you don't see yourself in the "doctor's opinion" it's best to try something else. 12 steps are for certain kinds of addict's.
And doesn't it rankle you even a little bit, that the RR people say "this is all you have to do... you don't need support groups... but you might need reinforcement from our pricey pricey literature and tapes.'? Look in a thesaurus. Support and reinforcement are listed as synonyms. Why knock people who choose to get their support from a community of people trying to conquer the same problem? It's just a different way, and statistically speaking, both your way and the AA way are as effective as any other method of quitting, including no program at all.
You get more flies with honey than vinegar, friend. There's not a thing wrong with the AVRT idea. It'll work for some people. Drinking tomato juice with oatmeal in it will work if you believe in it hard enough. But you don't have a right to knock my gruelly juice (you have to admit, it's nutritious!) or someone else's desire for the support of a community. 12 steps work. AVRT works. Counseling works. Fright works (it did on me). It doesn't diminish your accomplishment of sobriety that everyone else doesn't get sober the same way.
Peace.
Smoke
If you want to get into a battle of documentation, you're going to lose.
This is part of the National Instiute of Health's Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Division's mission statement.
(NIAAA): One of the National Institutes of Health, NIAAA’s mission is to “conduct research focused on improving the treatment and prevention of alcoholism and alcohol-related problems to reduce the enormous health, social, and economic consequences of this disease.”
It might also occur to you, that if insurance companies could get together and disclaim alcoholism as a disease, they would. And if there was a strong argument, they could. They're not going to pay for anything they don't have to!
I just got back from looking at several sites, both AMA and sites set up by doctors (members of the AMA), where the word alcoholism is thrown around like rice at a wedding. Also on one site alcoholism was specifically defined as "alcohol dependency". It won't take you much web cruising to find these. Just use American/ Medical /Dictionary as your keywords. A whole bunch of doctors and the AMA think there is such a thing as alcoholism. Semantics are against you.
Frankly the definition of addiction as disease is uncomfortable to me. No matter how much one may be predisposed to use, there is certainly an element of simple choice involved. As you noted, AA stresses this fact as well.
Also, I have to say that I would simply love that AVRT thing if it didn't come attached to people who want to knock 12 step programs. 12 step programs aren't for everybody. It says that right in the front of the book. If you don't see yourself in the "doctor's opinion" it's best to try something else. 12 steps are for certain kinds of addict's.
And doesn't it rankle you even a little bit, that the RR people say "this is all you have to do... you don't need support groups... but you might need reinforcement from our pricey pricey literature and tapes.'? Look in a thesaurus. Support and reinforcement are listed as synonyms. Why knock people who choose to get their support from a community of people trying to conquer the same problem? It's just a different way, and statistically speaking, both your way and the AA way are as effective as any other method of quitting, including no program at all.
You get more flies with honey than vinegar, friend. There's not a thing wrong with the AVRT idea. It'll work for some people. Drinking tomato juice with oatmeal in it will work if you believe in it hard enough. But you don't have a right to knock my gruelly juice (you have to admit, it's nutritious!) or someone else's desire for the support of a community. 12 steps work. AVRT works. Counseling works. Fright works (it did on me). It doesn't diminish your accomplishment of sobriety that everyone else doesn't get sober the same way.
Peace.
Smoke
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 21
Hi Smoke,
I don't think anybody can "lose" when it comes to expressing opinions about whether alcoholism is a treatable disease. Opinions on that question vary greatly among scientists, doctors, clergy, philosophers, psychologists, etc. There is no one right answer and I'm sure you know that. It's my opinion that there is no treatment for voluntary behavior. That's what I believe it is when you pour alcohol down your own throat. It doesn't matter to me what other people believe as long as their opinion isn't forced on addicts at the most vulnerable time in their life, when they are seeking help to end their addiction.
AA is fine for people who choose to be there. I'm sure you're aware that about half the people who attend AA meetings are forced by the courts and treatment centers to be there. Treatment center counselors are, by a large majority, AA members. Almost all treatment centers programs proudly point to AA as the only way for the sick alcoholic to recover and lead a normal life. Once in AA, “successful” AA members tell these involuntary attendees that absolutely nothing else worked for THEM, and that they’ve tried every means imaginable (as detailed in chapter 4 of the big book) and NOTHING ELSE WORKED. These involuntary attendees are also consistently told that thinking you can stop on your own and lead a happy, fulfilled life is insane. A form of DENIAL! At best, any forced attendee is condescendingly told to go out and drink some more until they've had enough, hit bottom, and are then willing to accept the AA program.
I would have absolutely no concern about the role AA plays in our society if a core program of AVRT and lifetime abstinence were immediately offered to anyone that stumbles, or is forced, through the door. People could then CHOOSE to work the 12-steps and attend lots of meetings to achieve “True sobriety and the serenity that comes with it.” That would be a real choice and not a choice made under the treat of inevitable relapse and unhappiness. You've got to admit that there is a lot of subtle mind manipulation involved in AA meetings. Or to put it the way I've heard many AA members (myself included) put it: "I don't care if you call this brain-washing, my brain needs a good washing."
I hope that you understand that Rational Recovery is not a fellowship, has no support network of any kind, and truly consists of only the idea that the practice of AVRT is the only tool you need to end your addiction forever. Other than that, I, and other people who have stopped drinking forever because of what was learned through Jack Trimpey's fine book and website ($14.95 for the book and the website is FREE) don’t give a single thought to how anyone chooses to spend there time. Meditation, prayer, church, golf, needlepoint, sweat lodges, missionary work in New Guinea, etc.... That's nobody's business.
Do I sound hostile? Insincere? Out to destroy anything? I sure hope not. I'd like to continue this discussion without attacks on each other's character.
I noticed you also started a thread called Rational Recovery in an alternate forum. The moderator wrote an excellent reply to you that was very fair and showed a great deal of understanding. The following posts were quite different. Did you notice the hostility, and worse than that, the amount of misinformation thrown around? It seems to me that many AA members are threatened by the idea that addiction isn't caused by a lack of AA. That seems really curious to me.
With much respect, and hope for further discussion,
Jon
I don't think anybody can "lose" when it comes to expressing opinions about whether alcoholism is a treatable disease. Opinions on that question vary greatly among scientists, doctors, clergy, philosophers, psychologists, etc. There is no one right answer and I'm sure you know that. It's my opinion that there is no treatment for voluntary behavior. That's what I believe it is when you pour alcohol down your own throat. It doesn't matter to me what other people believe as long as their opinion isn't forced on addicts at the most vulnerable time in their life, when they are seeking help to end their addiction.
AA is fine for people who choose to be there. I'm sure you're aware that about half the people who attend AA meetings are forced by the courts and treatment centers to be there. Treatment center counselors are, by a large majority, AA members. Almost all treatment centers programs proudly point to AA as the only way for the sick alcoholic to recover and lead a normal life. Once in AA, “successful” AA members tell these involuntary attendees that absolutely nothing else worked for THEM, and that they’ve tried every means imaginable (as detailed in chapter 4 of the big book) and NOTHING ELSE WORKED. These involuntary attendees are also consistently told that thinking you can stop on your own and lead a happy, fulfilled life is insane. A form of DENIAL! At best, any forced attendee is condescendingly told to go out and drink some more until they've had enough, hit bottom, and are then willing to accept the AA program.
I would have absolutely no concern about the role AA plays in our society if a core program of AVRT and lifetime abstinence were immediately offered to anyone that stumbles, or is forced, through the door. People could then CHOOSE to work the 12-steps and attend lots of meetings to achieve “True sobriety and the serenity that comes with it.” That would be a real choice and not a choice made under the treat of inevitable relapse and unhappiness. You've got to admit that there is a lot of subtle mind manipulation involved in AA meetings. Or to put it the way I've heard many AA members (myself included) put it: "I don't care if you call this brain-washing, my brain needs a good washing."
I hope that you understand that Rational Recovery is not a fellowship, has no support network of any kind, and truly consists of only the idea that the practice of AVRT is the only tool you need to end your addiction forever. Other than that, I, and other people who have stopped drinking forever because of what was learned through Jack Trimpey's fine book and website ($14.95 for the book and the website is FREE) don’t give a single thought to how anyone chooses to spend there time. Meditation, prayer, church, golf, needlepoint, sweat lodges, missionary work in New Guinea, etc.... That's nobody's business.
Do I sound hostile? Insincere? Out to destroy anything? I sure hope not. I'd like to continue this discussion without attacks on each other's character.
I noticed you also started a thread called Rational Recovery in an alternate forum. The moderator wrote an excellent reply to you that was very fair and showed a great deal of understanding. The following posts were quite different. Did you notice the hostility, and worse than that, the amount of misinformation thrown around? It seems to me that many AA members are threatened by the idea that addiction isn't caused by a lack of AA. That seems really curious to me.
With much respect, and hope for further discussion,
Jon
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: That's what I'd like to know.
Posts: 2,416
Well Jon,
I went back and read that thread, and with the exception of the reference to $999.00, I don't see anything that could be considered misinformation. Opinions that differ from yours perhaps.
And for a system that requires no support they have a whale of a message board and quite an array of literature.
And no, I do not know that half of all AA members are there because they were mandated. I would be interested in seeing the study. I would also be interested in knowing if they would have preferred a jail term (or a longer jail term). Before Dino wiggled out of his possession charge (and he was oh so guilty), he was told he would be choosing between jail and rehab. Somehow it does not stir my heartstrings that this criminal was going to be inconvenienced into going to rehab and AA meetings. I know two who HAVE been mandated. One is a moderator on this site and the other was a roomate to my crackhead. He said he didn't buy it all but was glad he went and didn't think it did him any harm. The tragic thing is that the mandators don't understand that no program is likely to work if it is coerced. And please imagine if you will, a hardcore heroin addict being mandated to "make a decision to not use." When I think of Dino being told that, I'm sorry, but it is simply ludicrous.
And no, I don't see any subtle manipulation in AA. I think it's anything but subtle. Just a straightforward program. There are zealots in every organization. It wasn't your garden variety muslims that blew up the Trade Center. I don't doubt some members have been told by others that AA is the only way they can get clean. It's not what the book says. But you know that.
Are you hostile to AA? Probably. And that's okay. You've been very polite, but you ask us to visit a site that is nothing but negative and very hostile about 12 step recovery. You even ask us to disavow a word in the English language that is in the dictionary... medical and otherwise. Alcoholism. And I'm sorry you jumped to the conclusion that Sentbygod was implying you weren't spiritual. I thought he/she was talking about his/her own journey. Perhaps there will be a clarification forthcoming.
I hope everyone will visit the site and take the crash test. I think it's a neat idea and one that could appeal to a some people. And like we've said before, you're more likely to brush your teeth if you like the taste of your toothpaste. But some people like structure. Some people like ritual. Some people like community. Some people don't find going to meetings a burden. There's no reason for the antagonistic attitude toward AA except to sensationalize the differences and create a market for their literature. It can't have anything to do with wanting people to recover. I know a guy's gotta make a living, but it's really pretty lowball journalism. When I quit drinking, I just quit. There was no angst involved whatever. And no program. I never really even made a decision to not drink. I made a decision to not endanger my life needlessly. It just worked out that way. How could I insist to anyone else that my way was the only worthy way to quit? That all they had to do was think like me and they would be free? What if I told you your addictive voice was a boogey man you conjured out of your own imagination? It would be arrogant nonsense. You feel you need your beast to fight. It is just as arrogant for the text writers on the rational page to put down steppers because they feel they need their group and the structure of the steps.
I haven't met your beast. But if you believe in him, he's real. I just wish the RR rhetoric factory would acknowledge that there is dignity in sobriety.... however you do it.
Smoke
I went back and read that thread, and with the exception of the reference to $999.00, I don't see anything that could be considered misinformation. Opinions that differ from yours perhaps.
And for a system that requires no support they have a whale of a message board and quite an array of literature.
And no, I do not know that half of all AA members are there because they were mandated. I would be interested in seeing the study. I would also be interested in knowing if they would have preferred a jail term (or a longer jail term). Before Dino wiggled out of his possession charge (and he was oh so guilty), he was told he would be choosing between jail and rehab. Somehow it does not stir my heartstrings that this criminal was going to be inconvenienced into going to rehab and AA meetings. I know two who HAVE been mandated. One is a moderator on this site and the other was a roomate to my crackhead. He said he didn't buy it all but was glad he went and didn't think it did him any harm. The tragic thing is that the mandators don't understand that no program is likely to work if it is coerced. And please imagine if you will, a hardcore heroin addict being mandated to "make a decision to not use." When I think of Dino being told that, I'm sorry, but it is simply ludicrous.
And no, I don't see any subtle manipulation in AA. I think it's anything but subtle. Just a straightforward program. There are zealots in every organization. It wasn't your garden variety muslims that blew up the Trade Center. I don't doubt some members have been told by others that AA is the only way they can get clean. It's not what the book says. But you know that.
Are you hostile to AA? Probably. And that's okay. You've been very polite, but you ask us to visit a site that is nothing but negative and very hostile about 12 step recovery. You even ask us to disavow a word in the English language that is in the dictionary... medical and otherwise. Alcoholism. And I'm sorry you jumped to the conclusion that Sentbygod was implying you weren't spiritual. I thought he/she was talking about his/her own journey. Perhaps there will be a clarification forthcoming.
I hope everyone will visit the site and take the crash test. I think it's a neat idea and one that could appeal to a some people. And like we've said before, you're more likely to brush your teeth if you like the taste of your toothpaste. But some people like structure. Some people like ritual. Some people like community. Some people don't find going to meetings a burden. There's no reason for the antagonistic attitude toward AA except to sensationalize the differences and create a market for their literature. It can't have anything to do with wanting people to recover. I know a guy's gotta make a living, but it's really pretty lowball journalism. When I quit drinking, I just quit. There was no angst involved whatever. And no program. I never really even made a decision to not drink. I made a decision to not endanger my life needlessly. It just worked out that way. How could I insist to anyone else that my way was the only worthy way to quit? That all they had to do was think like me and they would be free? What if I told you your addictive voice was a boogey man you conjured out of your own imagination? It would be arrogant nonsense. You feel you need your beast to fight. It is just as arrogant for the text writers on the rational page to put down steppers because they feel they need their group and the structure of the steps.
I haven't met your beast. But if you believe in him, he's real. I just wish the RR rhetoric factory would acknowledge that there is dignity in sobriety.... however you do it.
Smoke
Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: That's what I'd like to know.
Posts: 2,416
I've been to Dayton. It's a nice place. Even if it means eternity. Make sure in your brochures you tell everyone that we do not substiute lite margerine for regular or baking soda for powder, so the meals will be quite edible... if a little heavy on the poultry menu.
(Actually Rev, I was the coach.)
Hugs,
Smoke
(Actually Rev, I was the coach.)
Hugs,
Smoke
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 21
Hi again,
I just spent an hour writing a reply, and then hit the 'back' button to retrieve a quote from your moderator to add to it. Now I can't get back to the reply I had written, so I'm starting over. GEEZ!!! I love computers!
Jon said: "First, believe it or not, just as many people get sober WITHOUT 12 step programs as those that do. They do it through church, therapy, medication and alternative programs such as Rational Recovery, est, LifeSpring, etc. This is a GOOD THING."
It's with that spirit in mind I'd like to try to discuss these issues. I see in the time it's taken me to attempt to reply to you and rev that this thread is degenerating quickly. Let's try to get back on track. (Or we could just indulge in name-calling and character assassination)
Smoke, here's the clarification you thought might be forthcoming:
You said SentbyGod was talking about his spiritual journey and not mine. You're right. I went back and read it again and I see that he was saying that HE couldn't have 'found' God without AA, not that any other addict needs AA to find God. Point well taken. You also said that there wasn't as much misinformation on the other thread as there were opinions that differed from mine. I went back and you're right again! I think maybe I felt defensive and insecure.
Maybe my mistake was to read with the intent to refute and debate, rather than to understand. Again, I'm sorry. I think that my post on the whole was non-judgmental and non-threatening to your beliefs. Maybe if you go back and read what I was saying again it will make more sense.
As for the opinion that RR is a money making scheme, I’ll say it again. I've invested $14.95 for a book and the website is free. I'll never spend another penny. During my 16 years of AA I spent money on books, tapes, and conventions. I don't begrudge spending money to learn things!!! (Although it chaps my ass that I have to pay for my own Master's program to continue teaching) I don't hang out on the boards at the RR website and after reading all of the material there I don't have a need to go back. EVER! I have absolutely no need for support from anyone else that uses AVRT to cure his or her addiction.
That's what I'm talking about when I say I'm free. I'm free to explore religion, spirituality, and the meaning of life without being afraid that if I'm not practicing a good program I'll be overcome with an uncontrollable urge to drink. I don't believe in uncontrollable urges. I think that when anyone uses alcohol, heroin, crack, or metha-amphetimines they are doing so voluntarily. I think the reason they do it is because it is extremely pleasurable. No other reason. We all were great at making up excuses to use! The Big Book says that when we're really honest with ourselves, we don't know why we drink.
I don't want anyone to disavow the word alcoholism! What troubles me is the meaning given to it by AA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I was told during my 16 years of AA meetings was that alcoholism is a physical and spiritual disease that can never be cured. It's a disease that takes away a human beings ability to choose whether or not they will drink in the future. The disease can only be arrested one day at a time and the only way to arrest it is by practicing the simple spiritual program of AA. Sure, people can quit without AA but they will be "dry drunks, in denial, with none of the emotional sobriety needed to live a decent and fulfilling life. Is that close?
Now stop before you go into attack mode and understand that I think if that philosophy makes sense to you, more power to you! I'm happy for you. Really! The point is to abstain!!! If that works for you, great! It didn’t work for me. AVRT does. I wish I had heard about it sooner, while I was still trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Why should the free and respectful exchange of ideas be threatening to anyone? I’ll look forward to your answer.
Respectfully,
Jon
I just spent an hour writing a reply, and then hit the 'back' button to retrieve a quote from your moderator to add to it. Now I can't get back to the reply I had written, so I'm starting over. GEEZ!!! I love computers!
Jon said: "First, believe it or not, just as many people get sober WITHOUT 12 step programs as those that do. They do it through church, therapy, medication and alternative programs such as Rational Recovery, est, LifeSpring, etc. This is a GOOD THING."
It's with that spirit in mind I'd like to try to discuss these issues. I see in the time it's taken me to attempt to reply to you and rev that this thread is degenerating quickly. Let's try to get back on track. (Or we could just indulge in name-calling and character assassination)
Smoke, here's the clarification you thought might be forthcoming:
You said SentbyGod was talking about his spiritual journey and not mine. You're right. I went back and read it again and I see that he was saying that HE couldn't have 'found' God without AA, not that any other addict needs AA to find God. Point well taken. You also said that there wasn't as much misinformation on the other thread as there were opinions that differed from mine. I went back and you're right again! I think maybe I felt defensive and insecure.
Maybe my mistake was to read with the intent to refute and debate, rather than to understand. Again, I'm sorry. I think that my post on the whole was non-judgmental and non-threatening to your beliefs. Maybe if you go back and read what I was saying again it will make more sense.
As for the opinion that RR is a money making scheme, I’ll say it again. I've invested $14.95 for a book and the website is free. I'll never spend another penny. During my 16 years of AA I spent money on books, tapes, and conventions. I don't begrudge spending money to learn things!!! (Although it chaps my ass that I have to pay for my own Master's program to continue teaching) I don't hang out on the boards at the RR website and after reading all of the material there I don't have a need to go back. EVER! I have absolutely no need for support from anyone else that uses AVRT to cure his or her addiction.
That's what I'm talking about when I say I'm free. I'm free to explore religion, spirituality, and the meaning of life without being afraid that if I'm not practicing a good program I'll be overcome with an uncontrollable urge to drink. I don't believe in uncontrollable urges. I think that when anyone uses alcohol, heroin, crack, or metha-amphetimines they are doing so voluntarily. I think the reason they do it is because it is extremely pleasurable. No other reason. We all were great at making up excuses to use! The Big Book says that when we're really honest with ourselves, we don't know why we drink.
I don't want anyone to disavow the word alcoholism! What troubles me is the meaning given to it by AA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I was told during my 16 years of AA meetings was that alcoholism is a physical and spiritual disease that can never be cured. It's a disease that takes away a human beings ability to choose whether or not they will drink in the future. The disease can only be arrested one day at a time and the only way to arrest it is by practicing the simple spiritual program of AA. Sure, people can quit without AA but they will be "dry drunks, in denial, with none of the emotional sobriety needed to live a decent and fulfilling life. Is that close?
Now stop before you go into attack mode and understand that I think if that philosophy makes sense to you, more power to you! I'm happy for you. Really! The point is to abstain!!! If that works for you, great! It didn’t work for me. AVRT does. I wish I had heard about it sooner, while I was still trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Why should the free and respectful exchange of ideas be threatening to anyone? I’ll look forward to your answer.
Respectfully,
Jon
Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: That's what I'd like to know.
Posts: 2,416
Hello Jon.
I'm glad you found your round hole. You may have had some overly adament member of AA tell you it was the only way to recover, but you didn't read it in the big book. You did read that alcoholism is a condition that would be with one all of their life, and that the decision to stay sober would be made on a daily basis. There's nothing about uncontrollable urges. For goodness sake the whole thing is about controlling urges. Overwhelming , yes. And if you do not believe in overwhelming urges, perhaps it is because you do not have them. I don't (except occasionally for fried chicken for some reason). I think it would be presumptious of me to assume that because I don't, other people don't.
You're not threatening. You invited us to visit a site that I have visited before, but went back to on your recommendation. I felt the same disgust this time that I did the last time. They make what should be a helpful message unpalatable with their absurd negativism about 12 steps. That's a real shame. And the only reason to take such an adversarial approach is to attempt to establish an aura of superiority that will make people buy things. I'm sure you are a big disappointment to their marketing theorists. That pleases me enormously. And I'm happy that you are sober.
Smoke
ps -I've deleted many an avid reply that way, too. Ain't it a bear?
I'm glad you found your round hole. You may have had some overly adament member of AA tell you it was the only way to recover, but you didn't read it in the big book. You did read that alcoholism is a condition that would be with one all of their life, and that the decision to stay sober would be made on a daily basis. There's nothing about uncontrollable urges. For goodness sake the whole thing is about controlling urges. Overwhelming , yes. And if you do not believe in overwhelming urges, perhaps it is because you do not have them. I don't (except occasionally for fried chicken for some reason). I think it would be presumptious of me to assume that because I don't, other people don't.
You're not threatening. You invited us to visit a site that I have visited before, but went back to on your recommendation. I felt the same disgust this time that I did the last time. They make what should be a helpful message unpalatable with their absurd negativism about 12 steps. That's a real shame. And the only reason to take such an adversarial approach is to attempt to establish an aura of superiority that will make people buy things. I'm sure you are a big disappointment to their marketing theorists. That pleases me enormously. And I'm happy that you are sober.
Smoke
ps -I've deleted many an avid reply that way, too. Ain't it a bear?
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: That's what I'd like to know.
Posts: 2,416
Pickle, I love that joke! If you tell it on one of the anon pages I'll bet they erect a statue of you! Although, since we don't know what you look like, it may just be a giant marble pickle!
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I have removed my replys because after sleeping on them, I woke up simply embarrased. In my lite hearted mood, I believe I compromised my own belief system.
I went back and re-read this thread. I feel I have been dazzled with brilliance and baffled with BS. I do not like this feeling... The only good thing I have to say is; I am glad you are sober JonSmith.... so I will sign off this thread and pray for forgiveness. Not from you JonSmith. But from my God. I am not like a wave at sea, tossed to and fro.....Not today.
I do pray someday, you understand the spiritual value and the rewards of one drunk, helping another. I pray someday you understand that the Twelve Steps are not just about getting sober. They are about transformation. See, many of us put a quarter in the game of life, while never knowing how to even play the game.
I went back and re-read this thread. I feel I have been dazzled with brilliance and baffled with BS. I do not like this feeling... The only good thing I have to say is; I am glad you are sober JonSmith.... so I will sign off this thread and pray for forgiveness. Not from you JonSmith. But from my God. I am not like a wave at sea, tossed to and fro.....Not today.
I do pray someday, you understand the spiritual value and the rewards of one drunk, helping another. I pray someday you understand that the Twelve Steps are not just about getting sober. They are about transformation. See, many of us put a quarter in the game of life, while never knowing how to even play the game.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 21
Good Morning REV and SMOKE! (and Pickles- go steal a horse)
I was just going to say thanks for the understanding welcome you gave me. I’m sorry you are uncomfortable with any ideas I’ve expressed. I truly don’t understand why they cause you discomfort. I think AA and the 12 steps are great! How many times can I say that I was an avid participant for 16 years! I met many wonderful people. I was a GSR for 3 different groups. I participated in Public Information, Cooperation with the Professional Community, Treatment and Corrections, and spoke at several public schools. I’ve attended groups in Seattle, Bellevue, Everett, Bellingham, Bremerton, and Silverdale. Please understand that I know what AA is about. If we had met in a meeting 2 years ago you would have LOVED everything I had to say!
I’m not saying AA is evil or doesn’t work for anyone! I’m simply sharing that for me it was counter-productive to tie my spirituality to my ability to abstain from alcohol. My God gave me free will and the strength to use it. Quitting for just one day never made sense to me, even though I mouthed the words like nobody’s business. Abstaining from alcohol for the rest of my life is easy because God has made it so. Recognizing my addictive voice and understanding that it wants me to drink no matter the cost, that it wants the opposite of what God wants for me, is the key to defeating the addiction. I’ve come to believe during the last two years that the simple thought process I just described is common to every religion and is how every addict recovers, whether they use the same words to describe the process or not.
Nothing I just wrote is anti-Christian or anti-AA! If AA helps you achieve abstinence, if working a good 12-step program and quitting for just one day makes you happy, if AA and the 12-Steps help you achieve a higher state of consciousness or a closer connection to God, FANTASTIC!!!!!
As I’ve previously stated: “It doesn't matter to me what other people believe as long as their opinion isn't forced on addicts at the most vulnerable time in their life, when they are seeking help to end their addiction.
AA is fine for people who choose to be there. I'm sure you're aware that about half (probably would have been better to say a large % - editor)of the people who attend AA meetings are forced by the courts and treatment centers to be there. A majority of treatment center counselors are AA members. Almost all treatment center programs proudly point to AA as the only way for the sick alcoholic to recover and lead a normal life. Once in AA, “successful” AA members tell these involuntary attendees that absolutely nothing else worked for THEM, and that they’ve tried every means imaginable (as detailed in chapter 4 of the big book) and NOTHING ELSE WORKED. These involuntary attendees are also consistently told that thinking you can stop on your own and lead a happy, fulfilled life is insane. A form of DENIAL! At best, any forced attendee is condescendingly told to go out and drink some more until they've had enough, hit bottom, and are then willing to accept the AA program.”
SMOKE- please don't try to tell me this is uncommon. I’ve attended over 1,500 AA meetings and approximately 50 different groups! I’ve hung with the old-timers and I’ve sponsored the newbies. Please accept the fact that I understand what actually occurs in the AA program. If you like AA go for it!!! However, please don’t think you have a deeper understanding of it than I do. I’m not hostile towards AA. I’ll say it one more time: I couldn’t achieve lasting abstinence until I cut the mental tie between working a good AA program and having the ability to say ‘NO’ to the part of me that would drink at any cost.
I would have absolutely no concern about the role AA plays in our society if a core program of AVRT and lifetime abstinence were immediately offered to anyone that stumbles, or is forced, through the door. People could then CHOOSE to work the 12-steps and attend lots of meetings to achieve “True sobriety and the serenity that comes with it.” That would be a real choice and not a choice made under the treat of inevitable relapse and unhappiness.
I have a wonderful relationship with GOD, as I’m sure you do. That’s not the issue I’m trying to bring to this forum. Don’t for one second hold me responsible for anything else but my words. I have no affiliation with any recovery organization and I want no part of any recovery group. I simply want to share my experience, strength and hope with as many addicts as I can.
Sincerely and respectfully,
jonsmith
I was just going to say thanks for the understanding welcome you gave me. I’m sorry you are uncomfortable with any ideas I’ve expressed. I truly don’t understand why they cause you discomfort. I think AA and the 12 steps are great! How many times can I say that I was an avid participant for 16 years! I met many wonderful people. I was a GSR for 3 different groups. I participated in Public Information, Cooperation with the Professional Community, Treatment and Corrections, and spoke at several public schools. I’ve attended groups in Seattle, Bellevue, Everett, Bellingham, Bremerton, and Silverdale. Please understand that I know what AA is about. If we had met in a meeting 2 years ago you would have LOVED everything I had to say!
I’m not saying AA is evil or doesn’t work for anyone! I’m simply sharing that for me it was counter-productive to tie my spirituality to my ability to abstain from alcohol. My God gave me free will and the strength to use it. Quitting for just one day never made sense to me, even though I mouthed the words like nobody’s business. Abstaining from alcohol for the rest of my life is easy because God has made it so. Recognizing my addictive voice and understanding that it wants me to drink no matter the cost, that it wants the opposite of what God wants for me, is the key to defeating the addiction. I’ve come to believe during the last two years that the simple thought process I just described is common to every religion and is how every addict recovers, whether they use the same words to describe the process or not.
Nothing I just wrote is anti-Christian or anti-AA! If AA helps you achieve abstinence, if working a good 12-step program and quitting for just one day makes you happy, if AA and the 12-Steps help you achieve a higher state of consciousness or a closer connection to God, FANTASTIC!!!!!
As I’ve previously stated: “It doesn't matter to me what other people believe as long as their opinion isn't forced on addicts at the most vulnerable time in their life, when they are seeking help to end their addiction.
AA is fine for people who choose to be there. I'm sure you're aware that about half (probably would have been better to say a large % - editor)of the people who attend AA meetings are forced by the courts and treatment centers to be there. A majority of treatment center counselors are AA members. Almost all treatment center programs proudly point to AA as the only way for the sick alcoholic to recover and lead a normal life. Once in AA, “successful” AA members tell these involuntary attendees that absolutely nothing else worked for THEM, and that they’ve tried every means imaginable (as detailed in chapter 4 of the big book) and NOTHING ELSE WORKED. These involuntary attendees are also consistently told that thinking you can stop on your own and lead a happy, fulfilled life is insane. A form of DENIAL! At best, any forced attendee is condescendingly told to go out and drink some more until they've had enough, hit bottom, and are then willing to accept the AA program.”
SMOKE- please don't try to tell me this is uncommon. I’ve attended over 1,500 AA meetings and approximately 50 different groups! I’ve hung with the old-timers and I’ve sponsored the newbies. Please accept the fact that I understand what actually occurs in the AA program. If you like AA go for it!!! However, please don’t think you have a deeper understanding of it than I do. I’m not hostile towards AA. I’ll say it one more time: I couldn’t achieve lasting abstinence until I cut the mental tie between working a good AA program and having the ability to say ‘NO’ to the part of me that would drink at any cost.
I would have absolutely no concern about the role AA plays in our society if a core program of AVRT and lifetime abstinence were immediately offered to anyone that stumbles, or is forced, through the door. People could then CHOOSE to work the 12-steps and attend lots of meetings to achieve “True sobriety and the serenity that comes with it.” That would be a real choice and not a choice made under the treat of inevitable relapse and unhappiness.
I have a wonderful relationship with GOD, as I’m sure you do. That’s not the issue I’m trying to bring to this forum. Don’t for one second hold me responsible for anything else but my words. I have no affiliation with any recovery organization and I want no part of any recovery group. I simply want to share my experience, strength and hope with as many addicts as I can.
Sincerely and respectfully,
jonsmith
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Posts: n/a
Where is the world do you get the idea that the courts only refer to AA/NA. I have been receiving referrals from judges for years. We have a Christian Recovery Program. The judge has the option. He/She refers to what he/she believes will work. I am an advocate for choice. But you know Jon, the Bible tells us to get things setteled befor we stand in front of the judge. Once there, we are at his/her mercy. I cannot recall one case where a Christian who has found him/herself at the mercy of the court, denied access to our program if requested. Again, it is not uncommon around here to have a State van pull up and escourt a inmate to my desk, unhandcuff them, and release them to our care. (Well, not any more, I stopped accepting referrals a couple of years ago...) I think if they stay in jail a little longer, followed with a good halfway house, re-entry, job training/placement, meetings, etc. They have a much higher rate of success then we do. I am an advocate for Pain and Maturity. Pain gets my attention... Tesas Prison for one example... (I have been to federal prison also, but I can't count that as I manipulated them to the point that I was busted for sales and distrubution inside the walls.) Texas was different, there they put me in a line with a hoe, beating the Texas dirt while surrounded by guards on horseback with shotguns, dogs, chanting... Move it BOY!... Maturity.... You come to a point in life when you say to yourself..."What the heck am I doing to myself and those I love."
The Apostle Paul even tells us that we control our own thoughts. I agree....
Do I believe AA/NA is the only way...? Obviously not... Am I as active as I was in NA....? Obviously not. (I too served as a GSR) Served on the World Confrence Agenda, Chaired PI, etc. etc. But I am not out here today relying on my ability to control anything. I am plugged into recovery still... Only for me, It's Christian. I love NA, I will always be thankful that God used them to lead me back home.
The concept of support groups started with the Christian church. I will stay with what God has raised up. Not foresaking one another, but carring each others burdens.
The Apostle Paul even tells us that we control our own thoughts. I agree....
Do I believe AA/NA is the only way...? Obviously not... Am I as active as I was in NA....? Obviously not. (I too served as a GSR) Served on the World Confrence Agenda, Chaired PI, etc. etc. But I am not out here today relying on my ability to control anything. I am plugged into recovery still... Only for me, It's Christian. I love NA, I will always be thankful that God used them to lead me back home.
The concept of support groups started with the Christian church. I will stay with what God has raised up. Not foresaking one another, but carring each others burdens.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 21
Hi Rev,
I’m glad my “baffling bullshit” didn’t keep you away. And again, thank you for the very ‘Christian’ welcome.
You said:
“Where is the world do you get the idea that the courts only refer to AA/NA. I have been receiving referrals from judges for years. We have a Christian Recovery Program. The judge has the option. He/She refers to what he/she believes will work. I am an advocate for choice. But you know Jon, the Bible tells us to get things setteled befor we stand in front of the judge. Once there, we are at his/her mercy. I cannot recall one case where a Christian who has found him/herself at the mercy of the court, denied access to our program if requested.”
Would you agree that in order to get off easier, people that have no interest in recovery are being sent in ever increasing numbers to 12-step programs by judges who don’t know the first thing about addiction?
My opinion is that drug use should be legal. Stop and think before you suffer from a knee-jerk reaction. Alcohol is legal. Nicotine is legal. Caffeine is legal.
My opinion is that if a person is caught driving under the influence of alcohol, marijuana, speed, or heroin they should have there driving privilege revoked for the rest of their life. Period. Please tell me who would drive a car under the influence if that were the consequence? Other countries are drastically reducing the number of drunks on the road with this idea. Our system of mandated treatment/incarceration has been a dismal failure. Any intelligent person can look at the number of alcohol-related driving arrests over the last 30 years and see that what we’re doing doesn’t work.
We agree (I think?) that an addict that doesn’t want help can’t be helped.
Sincerely,
jonsmith
I’m glad my “baffling bullshit” didn’t keep you away. And again, thank you for the very ‘Christian’ welcome.
You said:
“Where is the world do you get the idea that the courts only refer to AA/NA. I have been receiving referrals from judges for years. We have a Christian Recovery Program. The judge has the option. He/She refers to what he/she believes will work. I am an advocate for choice. But you know Jon, the Bible tells us to get things setteled befor we stand in front of the judge. Once there, we are at his/her mercy. I cannot recall one case where a Christian who has found him/herself at the mercy of the court, denied access to our program if requested.”
Would you agree that in order to get off easier, people that have no interest in recovery are being sent in ever increasing numbers to 12-step programs by judges who don’t know the first thing about addiction?
My opinion is that drug use should be legal. Stop and think before you suffer from a knee-jerk reaction. Alcohol is legal. Nicotine is legal. Caffeine is legal.
My opinion is that if a person is caught driving under the influence of alcohol, marijuana, speed, or heroin they should have there driving privilege revoked for the rest of their life. Period. Please tell me who would drive a car under the influence if that were the consequence? Other countries are drastically reducing the number of drunks on the road with this idea. Our system of mandated treatment/incarceration has been a dismal failure. Any intelligent person can look at the number of alcohol-related driving arrests over the last 30 years and see that what we’re doing doesn’t work.
We agree (I think?) that an addict that doesn’t want help can’t be helped.
Sincerely,
jonsmith
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Do I agree that if an addict doesn't want help it won't work? Yes I agree.
Traffic laws as you know are mandated by the State. (With certain federal guidelines for funding). In Ohio, we already have some stiff penalties in place. Does it make a difference... To an extent... However, now we have drunks getting busted for operating biyciles under the influence. (True) And I am reminded of the infamous brother who hoped on a lawn tractor and was caught driving under the infulence. Not to mention, that we have a enormous number of people who have lost their driving privledges, and still drive.
Do I think legalization is the answer? No.. I think it is insane. You know what I am for? Making alcohol illegal again. (Now that is a unrealistic expectation, I agree)
Do I think judges do not have a clue as to what addiction is all about...? No, not in my neck of the woods... In fact, I know a few judges who are well aware of addiction.
My 'Chritian Welcome' did not include baffeling BS. That was a personal "feeling" My feelings are, after all, valid. As they are not based on what is right or wrong.
JonSmith, we could debate this until the cows come home... You are set, so am I. So once again, I will agree to disagree. I'm sober, you're sober, that's a good thing.
[This message has been edited by Roven_Rev (edited April 20, 2002).]
Traffic laws as you know are mandated by the State. (With certain federal guidelines for funding). In Ohio, we already have some stiff penalties in place. Does it make a difference... To an extent... However, now we have drunks getting busted for operating biyciles under the influence. (True) And I am reminded of the infamous brother who hoped on a lawn tractor and was caught driving under the infulence. Not to mention, that we have a enormous number of people who have lost their driving privledges, and still drive.
Do I think legalization is the answer? No.. I think it is insane. You know what I am for? Making alcohol illegal again. (Now that is a unrealistic expectation, I agree)
Do I think judges do not have a clue as to what addiction is all about...? No, not in my neck of the woods... In fact, I know a few judges who are well aware of addiction.
My 'Chritian Welcome' did not include baffeling BS. That was a personal "feeling" My feelings are, after all, valid. As they are not based on what is right or wrong.
JonSmith, we could debate this until the cows come home... You are set, so am I. So once again, I will agree to disagree. I'm sober, you're sober, that's a good thing.
[This message has been edited by Roven_Rev (edited April 20, 2002).]
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 21
Mr2Blue,
You enjoyed it? What am I? A clown? How am I funny? Funny how? What, I'm a clown for you to enjoy? I'm here for you enjoyment? Tell me how the f-- I'm funny?!
Sorry, I couldn't resist doing a bad Joe Pesci cyber imitation. I'm hoping you've seen 'Goodfellas'?
Keep on posting!
-frodo
You enjoyed it? What am I? A clown? How am I funny? Funny how? What, I'm a clown for you to enjoy? I'm here for you enjoyment? Tell me how the f-- I'm funny?!
Sorry, I couldn't resist doing a bad Joe Pesci cyber imitation. I'm hoping you've seen 'Goodfellas'?
Keep on posting!
-frodo
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