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You might want to do this.

Old 05-01-2002, 07:55 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
Ann
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Title "You might want to try this"

Reply: I don't. Yawn

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Old 05-01-2002, 08:27 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Hi,
I'm new to this forum and I love a good debate/discussion.

I am not against support groups except for the side effect of becoming dependant on them. I don't think that it is necessary to be labeled "alcoholic" forever either. It was for me, necessary to move on and grow in other directions. I never considered my group as a substitute for my family, nor did I feel that I was more understood by them than by other important people in my life. There was an aspect of my life (love of drugs and alcohol)that was understood by them. I also felt that the character defects that are important in the program to address are no different from the moral failings and personality quirks of the rest of the population and that there was a certain elitism and "us and them" aspect I found difficult to accept.

Once I had made up my mind that drinking or drugs were no longer an option, I felt very free. I placed my life in God's hands but felt that I was responsible for quitting drinking - my life was becoming unmanageable but I was not powerless. I felt morally, that God gave me free will to make decisions and choices. I love being in control of myself again (for several years now). If the steps help a person to have a better relationship with God then go for it. I do disagree with the "powerless" aspect of step 1 however, as well as the controversial "disease" aspect.

I was fortunate to still have a life that was relatively intact at the time I made my choice to abstain. I try not to ask God for much but I thank Him for everything and for reminding me that I do have choices and am not a victim of a disease - just an imperfect human being striving to do better.



[This message has been edited by nico (edited May 01, 2002).]
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Old 05-02-2002, 09:34 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Nico,
I detected a note of criticism towards a certain 12 step program in your post. I hope that's not the case. There are many steppers around this forum ready to 'eat you lunch'. Tread carefully. Say the serenity prayer often.
-frodo
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Old 05-02-2002, 09:53 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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JonSmith

Posted by you here on an earlier post on this thread:

"I think AA and the 12 steps are great!"
"I’m not saying AA is evil or doesn’t work for anyone!"

Posted by you on the RR forum:

"I will always speak out against AA whenever and wherever it's brought up."



[This message has been edited by chronic (edited May 02, 2002).]
 
Old 05-02-2002, 10:14 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Originally posted by jonsmith:
AVRT is an acronymn for Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. It's a simple, elegant technique to take control over the part of yourself that desires to drink no matter what the cost. There is no such thing as an 'alcoholic'. Some people can drink more than others and when they do they sometimes develop a dependency to alcohol. They are not victims of a disease that condemns them to drink. The primitive pleasure center of the brain begins to send out the message to the neocortex that it needs more alcohol to survive. AVRT is easily learned (go to the rational.org website and take the crash course) and will end your addiction for the rest of your life. Abstinence is the answer. Once you no longer drink you're free to live your life however you want to live it! You're a normal person that doesn't ever drink alcohol!
If you're thinking that this is too simple, that you're an alcoholic and always will be, that you need support groups or pop psychology, you are hearing your primitive pleasure center setting you up to drink again in the future. You call your primitive pleasure center whatever you want, as long as you identify it seperately from the part of you that never wants to drink again. Most people agree that 'beast' fits the bill, but if that name bothers you call it whatever makes sense to you. It's recognizing that 'it ' isn't really you, that all it wants is to drink no matter what the cost, that's the key to defeating 'it' and becoming securely abstinent for the rest of your life. You can completely recover from your dependence on alcohol!!! You will be FREE!!!
I think if RR works for you than God Bless you. When I came into AA several years agoI asked about RR in my area first, but we didn't have it here. The whole God idea turned me off but I needed help and was finally willing to accept it, even from AA. I'm proud to say I'm a recovered alcoholic now. I found recovery from alcohol in AA. I found a measure of peace and sereniy in AA. I found out that I really know only a very little and of that I'm not too sure. I've learned to "Live and let live" and when I am still confused by one thing or another, I have learned to seek the advice of others and the advice of the God of my understanding. It seems to comfort me when I "turn it over" to God, as I understand him.

But this is me and Jon is Jon. My way won't work for him and his way won't work for me. The point is he is staying sober and so am I. His ideas of recovery don't threaten me, in fact I agree with much of what I've read so far. Anyway that's enough from me. Jerry.
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Old 05-02-2002, 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by jonsmith:

I detected a note of criticism towards a certain 12 step program in your post. I hope that's not the case. There are many steppers around this forum ready to 'eat you lunch'. Tread carefully. Say the serenity prayer often.
-frodo
Jon,
You remind me of John the Baptist -a voice crying in the wilderness, preparing the way for the BP. There is also the still, small voice.
You know I agree with you about RR.
If you are trying to make people swallow a pill, put a little honey on it! It may go down easier. LOL

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Old 05-02-2002, 07:51 PM
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Jon,
You are a firecracker! Get on with your bad self. If a person needs to go on a rant about their experience in AA I give them credit for speaking out. If there was no criticism there would be no change. If no one questioned anything there would be no change. Where ever there is a point there should be a counter point. The comments aren't for those who do not want any change but for others who may want an alternative point of view or perhaps are questioning their existing point of view. It is the general rule of thumb in AA to be nice but alternately, RR bites. That's because it is about discernment and self expression. If you don't like something, don't be afraid to speak out. Jon's not kicking a person or an animal, He's kicking ideas, whether he is right or wrong is not as important as exchange of ideas. Everyone can decide for themselves. Opposite points of view get me thinking! I don't feel I need to defend, just present an idea and participate.

[This message has been edited by nico (edited May 02, 2002).]
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Old 05-03-2002, 07:48 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Taken directly from the RR forum page:
"However, many have reported excellent results by applying AVRT to other persistent problems including gambling, homosexuality, promiscuity, overeating, bulimia, pornography obsessions, the so-called "--philias," and other self-defeating activities promising physical pleasure. "

Explain to me, Jonsmith, How you supposedly "cure" homosexuality? I'm here to say that if that's what someone prefers, and is attracted to, there's no "curing it." I've never been so angered or repulsed in my life. You say that homosexuality is self-defeating? I'll stop myself now. It's no use...there are assholes in this world and I must accept that fact...Never mind. Forget I said anything.

As someone who is gay, I take ALOT of offense to your whole program and site in general. I commend you for helping people...but was that your purpose? Or was it to pad your own greedy, insecure pockets?

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Old 05-03-2002, 08:16 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Solanari,
If I may reply?
I believe the reason for that statement about homosexuality was written for anyone who may feel ambivalent about their sexuality. After all, supposedly married men have turned to homosexuality and their are others who have gone the other direction. Many people have bisexual urges too. If you are happy with your sexuality there would be no need to change it but the premise is that anyone can change anything if they wish too. It would not mean that urges would disappear, but be suppressed by one's own thinking. People do it all the time. Some folks choose celibacy in the same way someone would choose abstinence over alcohol or drugs. At least that is my take on it.

Most self help books cost money including the Big Book. Rehab centers cost money too.The RR website itself is free but there is a charge for the course in AVRT. It's called freedom of enterprise and I personally don't know anything that is free except "self recovery."
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Old 05-03-2002, 09:04 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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The homosexuality issue really offended me also. Nico explained very clearly in the last post what AVRT and Rational Recovery have to say about sexual lifestyles: If you're ambivalent about your own behavior and it's causing you pain, AVRT can be used to modify and change your own behavior.
How about this for an example:
A man named Bill is homosexual. He keeps feeling pressured to be heterosexual. He starts looking at heterosexual pornography even though he knows he's always been gay. He starts to consider the hetero lifestyle in his own mind. This causes problems with his live-in lover Bob. Bill uses AVRT to separate himself from the desire to consider a change to heterosexuality. Bill and Bob live happily ever after.

AVRT is too simple and effective for you smear that easily. I think you're probably an AA member seeking to discredit and scare people away from a simple method to end their cycle of alcohol addiction. Why would you do that?
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Old 05-03-2002, 09:11 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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PS:
solanari and any interested:

Go to RR website archives and read post called "Gay, Living in Holland." This person started a flame war on the forum by moaning about his lot in life as a gay man in a hetero society on an "AVRT" discussion board. The administrator replied by asking him if he wanted to change his sexual preference by using the principles of AVRT, as AVRT is ultimately about change (quitting something that is harmful to you)after all. He became even more irate and posted all kinds of insulting threats. No one on the AVRT forum knew why he was posting at all, or what he was wanting from RR as the reason for his posts seemed only to vent a bitter tirade against the USA and heterosexuals.

RR bites. It doesn't coddle people or stroke them as some discussion boards do. It's not about being dysfunctional (everybody is)nor is it a forum to complain about what has happened to you in life( as many use that as an excuse for their addictions) but to take action and be willing to take action.

He was one person of course and does not represent all homosexual people.


[This message has been edited by nico (edited May 03, 2002).]
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Old 05-03-2002, 11:54 AM
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Ahh, I understand now. I suppose I didn't read enough in to it when I read it.
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Old 11-23-2002, 03:52 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Unhappy I Need Any Help That Helps

[FONT=arial][COLOR=deeppink]

Forgive me, as I'm such a newby.
Since stumbling upon this site thismorning, I have found it to be a fountain of knowledge that offers hope, help, inspiration and information. It matters not to me a persons status, sexuality, race, age, religion or even if they wear their underpants on top of their trousers.
What matters to me is that I get help that's genuine, and honest and gives me hope. I have no hope for my future. I never answer the door or pick up the phone. Addiction, as you know is a very lonely place, so any websites that are interactive, informative (and preferably free) are the closest I get to sharing, acknowleging and confronting my problems.

Any help is welcome from anyone anywhere. It is ALL good.

Is what I need, I've no time to waste
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