JRiverBlues

I read this in a book unrelated to alcoholism, but it strikes me as true in regards to addictions or destructive habits generally. "Every gambler knows that the point is to lose."

There are a few ways of viewing addiction, one of which is self-medication, for which a proper solution might be finding other ways to self-medicate (e.g. friendships) or healing the root of the wound.

Another way, one I'm increasingly convinced by, is that the point is to lose. The point of addiction, the reason addicts fall and fall and fall, is not to get high but to get low. It's an act of self-destruction, a playing-out of some narrative we have of ourselves, a comfort with our addictions and brokenness. Making a bed in our wounds, so to speak. In this view, it's much less about pleasure than about pain -- the pain with which we are comfortable. Happiness is hard. Pain is easier, sometimes.

I'm sure it's not a universal explanation, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than the "pleasure" explanation.

Dee74

Hi JRiver

I’m not sure I agree with the masochist argument either.

I became addicted to oblivion - a break from me and my life. I took the increasing amount of negative consequences as collateral damage...in fact I turned that collateral damage into *another* reason to drink and check out.

For me, by the end, it was neither good nor bad...but familiar.

I’ve spoken before about not being the frog...

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...dont-frog.html (Don't be the Frog)

I had to break the the cycle before I familiarised myself to death.

D

EllyB

I like the frog metaphor.... alcohol was like a warm bath — until it wasn’t!

Mizz

The title reminds me of a little diddy that goes like this:

"You gotta know when to hold em
Know when to fold em
Know when to walk to away
know when to run"

SnazzyDresser

It's a provocative thesis you have there, JRiverBlues! I definitely think that self-destructive drive is present for a lot of people at some point in their drinking careers; I know it was for me. Of course the reasons why we do things are quite complex and quite elusive to try to strain out, sift through, and trace, constantly evolving over time etc.

Zencat

Although you loose me with the gambling analogy. I was in the 'dope trap' once and found through experience that the way I abused alco/drugs was like walking into a pit trap with no escape. Had to get better than that mess thankfully.

I play Texas Holdem. I enjoy all the dynamics/nuances of playing cards for money. I'm a fair card player. I don't bet more than I have set aside for a poker game. Most times I break even and I count that as a win. Yet gambling can be dangerous if unchecked. I get that part fo'sho.

Dropsie

For me, the gambling analogy really hits home, and I know that I play to lose.

Its why I married a sociopath, left a lucrative partnership at a law firm right after being promoted, invest in risky ventures and always lose, don't pay my taxes on time, procrastinate. Deep down, the ONLY possible explanation is that I get high off the risk and deep down want to lose.

What drives the self destruction eludes me. Clearly its fear related, but is it fear of success, fear of failure, a deep seated belief that I am not worthy of success/deserve to lose, not sure. But it is an addiction to risk and to the feeling of failure.

Drinking was a way of coping with the fall out, but have never thought about whether it was driven by the same addiction to risk and to self destruction.

I started to black out from drinking from a very young age. I had an humiliating car accident when I was 16 and over the limit and still continued to drink. I used to drink to black out in work situations. I knew that if I drank I risked blacking out, but did it anyway. And again. And again. Now that you raise the point, I think that part of my drinking was driven by the need to take crazy risks and then lose. The need to lose.

It was also a coping mechanism and many other things akin to Dee's frog analogy, but at least in part, it was a vehicle to self destruct.

Thanks for making me think about this. Spot on, for me. The interesting part is that I hate traditional gambling.... go to Vegas and don't even play a hand...

Grymt

on one of my many stays at a rehab I met a couple of people with serious gambling addiction. One was a really nice young man who I noticed one day had bandages on his hands. He told me that he'd scratched them raw and it always happened that they started to itch really badly as the craving to gamble grew. A few days later he left the rehab. Never saw him again. Hope he's ok. The other I heard share that he'd gambled away everything, his house, lost his marriage, children but couldn't stop until he had lost everything. I think he was saying there was a relief in knowing there was nothing left to lose.

LateBloominCait

When I started drinking early in life, it was absolutely about pleasure. Once I became aware that I was an alcoholic (sadly this happened 6 years before I truly go serious) every drink I took was a small step towards killing myself and I was well aware of it. I can see what the quote is trying to get at. I know AA has a phrase that kind of fits with this idea which is "a brain full of AA and a belly full of beer". Once I knew and understood the problem I had, the drinking was no longer fun, just a chore I had to get through that took a little more of my self esteem away with each sip because at the end, I knew very well that I was going to kill myself if I kept going. I openly referred to myself as an alcoholic for the last 2 years I drank. I played it off like a joke, but I was never kidding. I was depressed and have a dark sense of humor, but the truth was that I was quietly crying out for help and didn't even realize it.

So I get it. By the last year of my drinking, I absolutely took that first drink knowing the point was to lose. Lose myself, lose my stress, lose my self-control and eventually lose my life.

Dropsie

JRB,

There is an excellent website and book called why we suffer by Peter Michaelson-- I highly recommend it.

Happy New Year!