ant385

Hey dry, PAWS mimics anxiety disorders, especially GAD and OCD. Stress usually triggers the symptoms. I think as a rule of thumb if you did not have an anxiety disorder going into PAWS then you probably won’t coming out of PAWS. Remember, as long as you stay sober then PAWS has no foundation. There is nothing to keep it going indefinitely. You are healing. And the fact you are having weeks of normalcy is a sign you are recovered more than you think. This will end.

ScottFromWI

My struggles were very real after I quit too and actually most of the stuff that would have fit into the "PAWS" category didn't really start until about 6-8 months after I quit. And after looking back and all the work I did, I'm pretty sure most of what I went through was related to my Anxiety issues, including physical symptoms. Our minds are immensely powerful, and it's very possible to physical symptoms to manifest with no clear physical reason. And believe me it wansn't for lack of checking - I had every test you could imagine and some might have even labeled me a hypochondriac during those times. The good news for me was that things indeed did get better, but only after I accepted that there were indeed other areas of my life that needed attention like my mental health. While there is no doubt that the symptoms of PAWS exist, we do need to remember that it is not a diagnosable condition either from a medical or mental health standpoint. I don't say that to discount that it exists, but to point out that the best treatment is to find ways to mitigate the indiviudal symptoms. For me, anxiety was the root cause of most of them.

Another thing to remember is that even a minor return to drinking can re-set the clock on withdrawals/PAWS, even after several weeks/months of abstinence. No one really knows why, just like no one really knows why we are addicts in the first place or why we experience things like PAWS - but unfortunately that can be the case sometimes.

GG7

Just seeing this post. But you may want to try "R-lipoic acid" which is an amino acid. It must be the "R" lipoic acid, not just regular lipoic acid, and the recommendation is 300mg capsule twice a day. Some people only need 300mg but everyone is different. You could try 300mg first. No different than taking a vitamin, but of course do your own research. People with diabetes take it for nerve pain, and I found it on one of the forums for this problem. I started taking it months ago when I first stopped drinking, and was seeing some pretty good results. However, prior to the pandemic I was going to the gym 6 days a week, eating only fruits, vegetables, and fish...drinking green tea, taking vitamins, and drinking green smoothies/proteins shakes, etc. Total healthy living along with the amino acids, GABA, 5-HTP, multi-vitamin, thiamin, vitamin B's (be careful with too much vitamin B6 it can also cause nerve damage if taken in excess). After the gym closed in my area (due to the pandemic) and the weather changed -it was crazy humid this summer. I basically stopped working out, and gained all the weight back I had just lost due to major sugar cravings. Lost 20 pounds and gained back 30 pounds..lol! I know some people say they get the sugar cravings in the beginning, but I didn't get them until months down the line. Started eating a bag of cookies a day, and then started eating ice cream every day. Currently, I made a decision "enough is enough", no more sweets, and back to the regimen I was on in the beginning. I say all this to say....the funny feelings in legs, and feet started coming back daily after I stopped working out, wasn't taking the r-lipoic acid daily, and started eating the sweets. Especially after adding the sweets each day. I was actually coming on here to complain about how it's been a year since I drank, and that even though I am grateful that I haven't drank in a year. I wish I felt much better! I am frustrated I still have the funny feelings in feet and legs, still feel stiff every morning in legs, feet and upper body, tired and just not the same energy I used to have. I have been to the doctor, and have had blood test,etc. and they confirm I am healthy (praise God)! So I guess, it must be from the previous drinking. So, after typing this I have answered my own question and hopefully helped others. I need to work out, eat healthy because the bad food (unhealthy carbs, sweets, junk food, sodas, etc) make the paws symptoms worse (in my opinion). Taking healthy supplements, doing a cleanse of fruits and vegetables, and letting the body reset and get used to operating on healthy foods and not toxic junk, all makes a world of difference. I hope this helped you some. God bless and I wish you well!

ScottFromWI

Just a friendly reminder about our medical advice rule ( link below ). Sharing experiences is fine but please remember that specific recommendations should always come from a qualified doctor/individual - even for OTC or herbal/traditional remedies.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...al-advice.html (Reminder On Medical Advice.)

Thanks,

Scott

Graceful123

hey @BettyP congratulations to you for 6 months sober! I hope the rest of you are staying strong and healing well!!

Just a quick update:
I can definitely see a huge improvement over the last 6 months, I mean it's day and night. I used to get panic attacks and anxiety that would last for days, dizziness, derealization/depersonalization (I can't say enough how scary these can be), awful mood swings, one second everything is ok, the next the world around me seemed like it's collapsing. I am much better off now. I have had a LOT of healing and I say this out loud because I went through what a lot of people on this forum are going through and I want to say for all of you struggling, you WILL get better! Your brain just needs time (a lot of it as I found out) to readjust to its new normal.

Again, I want to stress that this isn't coming from a doctor or a psychiatrist or an addiction councilor, this is coming from someone who lived through PAWS. PAWS is very real and can be devastatingly painful and scary to the point where at some points it was so debilitating that I couldn't operate like a normal human being. Getting the worst panic attack you've ever experienced at work while sitting through a meeting with your CEO sure does suck and takes some serious strength to get through. BUT it gets infinitely easier if you remain sober.

My anxiety on a daily basis is down to 2.5-3/10 versus the 10/10 that I had in the first 3 weeks after quitting. I am definitely not out of the woods yet and I expect at least another 6 months of recovery (and I would say probably even closer to a year) before I consider myself to be "fully operational" (not quite sure if there is a better word).

I found (and I tried a lot of things) that for me there was no other cure but time. Each day/week/month that I remained sober it got slightly easier. Anxiety went down, depression lifted little by little. Depers/Derea got less and less to the point where I haven't had an episode in probably over a month now.

Stay strong everybody. As per an AA sponsor that I know personally, people on the brink of death, some who couldn't even string a sentence together in the beginning, have beaten this and remained sober. We can all do it too!

EllyB

Thanks for the message of hope, graceful! I feel like my overall underlying anxiety is getting a little better at 3 1/2 months out, but my mood swings are getting worse, along with the restless irritability. Doesn’t help that we are now on triple super lockdown here now with skyrocketing COVID cases. The only positive of PAWS is that I know I cannot go through this ever again, and that is keeping me from picking up another glass of anything.

wildbill3285455

I posted on this forum a month ago and it helped me out tremendously I am at a little over three months now (was a binge drinker for over 10 years) I feel better than I ever have I never wanna go back to drinking insomnia is better no more headaches dizziness is almost gone still tired all the time but better then being hungover I was wondering if any one had the lingering symptoms of acid reflux and sore joints? Those seem to be the things that are holding on the longest for me . Any response or advice as always is helpful

Dee74

Hi wildbill

congrats on 3 months. I've had acid reflux before and sore joints, but it's been when I've been sober as much as when I was drinking.

Sometimes I think we need to visit the Dr to get answers and just to make sure all is well?

D

Dave9185

So I've been at least 6 months sober now. On some days I feel good, my main issues currently are health anxiety and brain fog, intermittent upper right quadrant pain. The brain fog is getting a lot better, it seems to really kick in after breakfast, but lessens/goes away as the day progresses. I looked at the calendar and my last "night out drinking" was June 27th, 2020, where I drank around 7+ beers and a few shots. Although side note, took motherwort which contained ethanol up until early August.
I'm feeling good right now, however it's still an hour by hour thing. This morning I woke up and started thinking that my fingernails looked like I have Terry's Nails, this sent me into an hour long panic attack. I have been having on and off right upper quadrant pain since about July, and my ultrasound showed a mildly fatty and enlarged liver. My alt ast bloods have been in the past elevated but within range (For example 39 within a range of 0 - 41), and tests were taken 4 - 7 days since last binge. However through research I understand that Ultrasounds are not the most reliable measurements and that they can sometimes miss Fibrosis or Cirrhosis. So I have it in my head now that my brain fog, insomnia, chest/back pain is due to Cirrhosis which was missed on Ultrasound. Some moments in the day I can convince myself that I just have a fatty liver, but other moments in the day I think I am slowly dying from Cirrhosis and that I will not be around much longer. Aside from the panic/health anxiety, I have been feeling better and healthier this month as compared to last. What could be causing my RUQ pain? It could be do to something as simple as me not going on a diet, and my enlarged liver is stretching my Glisson capsule (and I pray that's what's really going on). I am going for an MRI soon to get a second look on my liver for confirmation that it's only a fatty liver... and I've gone on a diet which seems to be easing my RUQ pain.

So all this research I've been doing, I'm wondering if this PAWS thing is somehow related to our damaged livers? Since a liver which is damaged either fatty/enlarged/hepatic takes some time to recover, maybe that is why it takes some of us PAWSers up to 2 years to go back to normal? As an alcoholic forum, we should all be worried about what damage we did or continue to do by drinking. Any thoughts?

BettyP

[QUOTE=Graceful123;7572424]hey @BettyP congratulations to you for 6 months sober! I hope the rest of you are staying strong and healing well!!

Thank you!!! I feel like if I made it this far I can definitely make it even further. Six months felt really huge.
I also feel like I'm at the turning point with PAWS. Not all better, but at the tipping point where my particular case and symptoms are becoming less bad more good - going in the right direction. Good days are starting to outnumber the bad days.
I would recommend to anyone who is in the early stages of PAWS to write down daily their experiences and symptoms because you really can keep track of your progress and see that things are getting better as time goes on. It certainly does feel like it takes forever, but you can see if you chart things a little that things slowly improve.

BettyP

Hi Dave -

I can't speak to your specific health questions about your liver (I am not a doctor and we are also not to give health recommendations) but I will say that I've read through this thread and its original many times, and health-specific anxiety is really really common in early recovery and PAWS. And rightfully so, I think - we've put our bodies through a lot in the drinking and then detoxing, which is a huge stressor that takes time to recover from. I would say that if you don't feel like your doctors have given you enough answers regarding your liver, get a second opinion from another doctor. Cirrosis is not a sneaky disease, though - people who have it are usually very actively sick. I'd say chances are you're ok, but again - get another opinion and be very specific about your fears when you talk to the docs.

EllyB

Dave — I agree with other posters that you should bring your concerns up with your doctor. However, as I read up about PAWS, it seems more likely that insomnia, brain fog and anxiety are more related to chemical imbalances in the brain than liver issues. And as you mentioned, those symptoms are improving. They may, ironically, take longer to heal than the liver damage. I really doubt that you have done irreversible damage to your liver... but, again, get some reassurance from your doctor if you are still concerned.

ScottFromWI

One of my biggest problems in the first entire year of my sobriety was Dr. Google. I'm not saying this to minimize the fact that you are having physical symptoms Dave, but I spend days and hours trying to diagnose every little ache and pain I had in my body. I was convinced at times that I had a brain tumor, multiple different kinds of cancer, neurological disorders, rare syndromes, etc. I did indeed have elevated liver enzymes and some completely out-of-whack bloodwork for a while after I quit, and some serious GI issues. But what made them even worse was trying to diagnose them on my own and with the help of the internet - which always tends to catastrophize. I finally saw a counselor to help address my mental health( health anxiety/GAD) issues and contionued to get regular checkups with my medical doctor - and the combination was eventually successful.

As to whether or not "PAWS" can be caused by liver issues, I'ts important to remember that PAWS itself is not a diagnosable condition from either a medical or mental health perspective. It's kind of a catch all term for a wide variety of physical and mental symptoms that recovering addicts seem to commonly experience . So there really is no spefic cure or treatment, as it's not a diagnosable condition in the first place. However- the individual symptoms themselves can be addressed, and it's important that you do let your health care providers know that you are recovering - because the treatments may be different from someone who has the same symptoms and is not recovoering from abuse.

wildbill3285455

hello Scott just wonder how long did it take for the GI issues to heal That seems to be my most annoying symptom three months in. reflux, bubbling stomach, diarrhea ,constipation. Got an ultrasound everything is fine definitely has to do with the body healing I was wondering if you or anyone had a timeline on the gut healing ?

BettyP

Hi - I know you asked Scott specifically, but I just wanted to jump in and say that I had lots of nausea and gagging for the first four to five months. I stopped drinking July 2020 and those symptoms finally ended around the end of November/early December. It is different for everyone, again, but those GI issues took much longer than I thought they would.

ScottFromWI

It took a while - months for certain. And yes, many of those sympotms sound familiar unfortunately. The reflux probalby took the longest - I never had an ultrasound but I am almost certain there must have been some damage to my esophagus and whatever else is next down the line. The good news though is that it all did eventually improve. Quitting drinking cerainly helped, but also changing my diet and generally taking better care of my body. For me my anxiety also caused some of the issues, so I needed to treat that too.

BettyP

Anxiety is the worst symptom for me in PAWS hands down as well. I did have anxiety issues going into recovery but nowhere near as bad as they are in early recovery. I am addressing anxiety as though it is its own standalone issue - ie seeing a therapist, seeing a psychiatrist and taking a low dose of antidepressant, changing my diet to healthy eating, exercising, going to meetings and working on steps, calling sponsor and others etc. - am I missing anything? I'm literally throwing everything I can at the anxiety fire to try and put it out. It's gotten better slowly, but just in case I'm missing something ...? I know you're gonna say "it just takes time" haha ...

EllyB

It is definitely the hardest one to work around. I am finding the combination of anxiety, depression and lack of motivation a nasty combo... almost debilitating. I am trying meditation right now— Headspace on Netflix has some good meditations. Yoga actually does calm it down as well. It just feels like those things only help with the top layer of anxiety, if that makes any sense, and not the underlying physical anxiety that starts in at 6 am.

BettyP

I'm glad you mentioned the layers of anxiety - the physical anxiety took me a really long time to calm down. Like electricity running through every last nerve ending. Yoga and meditation helped that some, and just exercising for at least an hour a day (lots of long walks) to try and get endorphins pushing the brain in the right direction. I stopped eating sugar about a week ago and started eating more or less a "paleo" kind of diet. I was eating TONS of candy in the beginning because the sugar cravings were intense. Cutting out the sugar has knocked down some of that physical anxiety a notch - plus like Graceful said... time. The plus of eating the healthy diet is that it gives me a little bit of feeling like I have some control over what's happening to me, and it gives me things to do with my hands and brain that aren't googling symptoms of terrible diseases haha. I've always liked cooking, though, so cooking is good relaxation for me and occupies my brain.

ScottFromWI

Sounds like you are doing a lot of the right things. Full disclosure - I didn't actually start taking my anxiety seriously until at least a year after I quit - so I can't say how long it would have taken if I would have attacked it full-on right after quitting. My initial work in counseling involved a lot of the same questions you are asking now - I wanted a list, or a set of instructions on exaclty what I needed to do in order to make my anxiety "go away". For me it manifested physically alot...even when I didn't have panic attacks, I'd feel almost like a swelling - or a rising up, that would always start in my gut/stomach. Or as a physical pain/feeling somewhere else in my body that I'd then start dwelling on and letting my worry about what it was spiral out of control. I could never just "relax" like a few beers used to do. My sleep was fitful and never all night - this went on for at least a year if not more.

There is no Magic bullet, but I can tell you that if you find little things that help just a little bit, keep doing them and adding more as you go. The effect is cumulative. I did therapy ( a coupel different counselors ), tried a couple different meds, changed my diet, did a lot of reading, practiced meditation/mindfulness ( which is REALLY hard at first for someone with anxiety ) and also learned to be self-aware of my symptoms so I could help stave them off before they became out of control. I cut out caffeine and most of my sugar intake for a while, which really helped. Taking walks and getting a little fresh air helps too. Another thing is to avoid things that feed your anxiety - social media for example, or other potentially controversial situations. Getting all riled up about things that are beyond our control does not help at all. My second counselor had a phrase - "not for me" that I adopted. If I saw a news headline or a post from a friend that is beyond my sphere of influence, it's "not for me".

I also believe that being a chronic drinker like I was literallly changes your brain chemsitry and your "neural pathways". It takes time for your brain to re-learn healthy ones and stabilize chemically. This can take years - literally in some cases. So yes, you do need to give it time unfortunately. But the result is worth it - I can honestly say that I go through most days now without even thinking those thoughts I used to think, and my sleep has returned to almost normal too.