Obladi

This is a very awesome sentence: "You can't want what you know won't actually help." An extremely accessible summation of AVRT, if you ask me.

MesaMan

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A good and resolutely-chilled Pal of mine laid a prime operating principle on me some Years ago.

Events occurring to us happen at some exact point in time that can be referenced, say, on a Cellphone. They happen at some exact place, which one could optionally define by GPS Coordinates. Outside these aspects of Time and Place, we assign things like Feelings or Reactions to everything. Such assignments are optional.

Say, someone cuts me off in Traffic. I might think I have to race around, and cut them off in return while giving them the ole One Finger Salute. Actually, not. I can laugh at their idiocy. I can rejoice in not being that angry. And, so on. I have choices at my command. This is the opposite of Powerlessness.

One germane aspect of this practice is to not drink *at* things anymore. Either celebrations, or setbacks. I win.

As I practice this concept imperfectly, it is profoundly liberating. And, it fosters Serenity. It doesn't make us into unfeeling Automatons tamping down all Feelings. Disappointment is still disappointment. Grief is still grief. This practice does let me blow off all kinds of events that would have been used prior as excuses to drink.

Things slamming me are not optional. That's Life. Which Feelings I let pass, or not, are assignments/associations I have the final say on. I can let all kinds of things simply float on down the River without consternation.

This, then, led Years ago to my version of the saying above: 'You can't lust after that which you no longer want'. I.e., Intoxication. When the ostensible 'reasons' to drink are dispensed with - and replaced with new Habits - the default, antiquated reflex to drink evaporates.

Forever.

Cosima11

Meditation is a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately... Meditating doesn't work for me on my own, it sort of works during yoga but barely, it's transcendent in its own way but mostly just because of the physical aspect of it. So I've decided I'm going to start going to an actual meditation place to learn from and meditate with others.

I haven't written lately about "that guy" I've been talking about forever, but things have actually been kinda great recently.. he’s been taking me out around the town in the light of day and we’ve had some good conversations. But it's still sometimes one step forwards and two steps back. And on my end at least it's still largely about me not being able to recognize patterns within myself (being afraid of confrontation even when something could be easily addressed, holding things in until they become overly exaggerated, etc.) before they start unfolding rather than after the damage is already done. I'm still eager to take whatever dopamine hits I can get from him rather than addressing the underlying pain of all my shattered dreams and expectations. So I need to get better at sitting with those thoughts and feelings, and I do think staying connected to my feelings.. and especially the feelings I can't control, is important and ironically the only way I can actually release them once they've been fully felt. At least that's been my experience lately.

Anyway, sorry I haven't been around much in this thread but wanted to wish you a belated congrats on 90 days O that's a huge accomplishment!

AlericB

I'd say so. Take someone who "self-medicates" because she believes that alcohol relieves stress. If she no longer believed that would she continue to feel the need for alcohol when she's feeling stress?

How could she stop believing something that she may think is self-evidently true? She could just watch people drinking and see how some may seem to relax while others may get agitated or angry. She may think it doesn't make sense that that alcohol can sometimes be a relaxant and sometimes be a stimulant. This would obviously lead to her changing her perspective about self-medication because why would you drink when to relieve stress when you no longer believe it has this power? This change of perspective will effect her feelings because she'll no longer feel a desire for a drink when stressed because she knows it won't help.

Here's another why she may change her perspective on drink as a stress-reliever. A good definition of stress is “the interpretation of an event as signaling harm, loss, or threat.” She may realise that a drink isn’t going to change how she interprets an event as stressful because it can't change her actual thoughts. If she thinks get fired is disastrous as opposed to a potential opportunity to get a better job then she's going to find her dismissal stressful. However much she drinks she is still going to hold this view. At best drinking could be a temporary distraction for her from the harm, loss, or threat she sees in the event. But that means that alcohol's stress relieving power is based in mere distraction and is no more an inherent stress reliever than watching a movie or reading a book.

fini

yo O, how are you doing?

Obladi

I'm alright, fini. Thanks for asking. Not been in the mood for much writing lately, but all is well in my tiny world.

How's everybody else?

fini

i’m alright.
irl, when i say that, mostly people respond with “just alright?” and i always find that odd. being alright is cool by me

Cosima11

I'm feeling a bit thrown off balance by the changes in this "relationship" but it can't be all bad as it's pushing me to yet again strive for more self awareness/improvement. After writing about yoga being transcendent I looked up stuff on transcendental meditation (it must've been in my subconscious but I'd forgotten I used to be interested in that "type" of meditation for a while as a drinker.. little good it did me then of course).

Just to add another tangent, there's another boat analogy which says.. imagine you're in a small boat in the middle of the ocean when suddenly a storm hits. There are huge waves all around and your impression is the entire ocean is being seized by these waves. But if you go inwards, further and deeper down there is calm and stillness. This stillness already exists no matter what's going on on the surface, and it can be accessed at any time in any place. They then refer to this as the "source of thought". Which brings us to the unified field theory in which our awareness and consciousness itself determines our outward perception of reality.. Basic stuff really and I do feel like I've already learned and experienced this but am now having to re-learn it sober.

Obladi

Thanks to everyone who's been posting here. I've been reading and heeding and applying these concepts irl. The notion of choosing a perspective really hit home with me, so much so that I went shopping on Google Images for some inspiration to post at my desk. Very unlike me, but whatever, I went with it. Settled on, "It's unwise to be sure of one's own wisdom (Ghandi)" and "I'd far rather be happy than right any day (Douglas Adams)." Yesterday morning, I sat down next to a guy in a meeting who has never said anything directly to me aside from, "Hi, O." He said, "It's nice to see you looking happy." So something's working.

The topic of last Sunday's meeting was the 10th step. (Again?? Wow, time flies when you keep showing up.) I was listening, but not, to the anecdotes I've heard before. Meanwhile, my head was turning over this very confident and honest thing I'd said during a previous Step 10 discussion - that I am really quite good at recognizing my wrongs and promptly righting them. Which led me to think about how uncomfortable I am when I'm right and don't get my way. Happens all the time at work. What's that about? I'm right, after all. I have the best of intentions and honestly can say that I'm not being self-seeking. I can see clearly how things could be so much better if we'd all just act like a team rather than working in silos. It's crazy and befuddling that people don't see this or are too lazy to do it, or whatever. I know this all sounds very big-headed, but I swear it's true and absolutely not full of ego. But still, I feel so abashed and ineffectual when I'm heard then summarily dismissed. So, laughing sardonically at myself during this meeting, I developed my own Step 10 - "And when we were right, promptly shut up."

I got a chance to practice this week. I've been campaigning for close to a year to improve a process at work. Basically, people's responses were "great idea, but we're more comfortable doing things this way." The person who tracks the project plan for this process finally gave in and agreed to talking about my ideas a few weeks ago. I asked just a couple of people to join us, and the concept took root! So I scheduled a second meeting with a larger group, and those folks were also amenable to this approach. Third meeting was scheduled for last Friday. On Thursday, I got an email from the manager saying that her boss is in agreement with this approach, but a "neutral party" needs to lead the effort. So this manager will be leading the discussion going forward.

In my head, my response was, "Harumph. This manager is the one who has been saying for many cycles, 'Can't discuss changing the process now - we're in the middle of the cycle.' This manager is the one who was suggesting a process that is completely impractical. I am perfectly capable of facilitating a meeting in a 'neutral' fashion - isn't that what I just proved?" Then, "I must go find myself a meme to post in my cubicle to provide me with some perspective."

I found "Keep Calm. It's Not About You."

Obladi

Cos, I hope it doesn't offend you that it tickled my funny bone that you've been thinking a lot about meditation.

I agree that the only way to transcend the feelings is to feel them. Beats the hell out of trying not to feel them, anyway. Damned things always come back otherwise - like whack-a-mole.

This guy thing sounds a little too much like self punishment. Maybe I misunderstand. Is he the source of the shattered dreams and expectations?

Cosima11

Hmm is he the source? Yes and no. If I’m honest the entire time I’ve stayed living in this state (where I started out with zero connections aside from him) has felt like a karmic punishment. Sure I’ve changed drastically but it hasn’t been through fun and easy times. I drank for the first 9 months I lived here and there are ghosts of what could’ve been that still haunt, but life goes on and there will be a new chapter.. I’m buying a house (not right at this moment but soon), I’ve planted the seeds with my career here and feel they’re closer to breaking ground.

There’s been a shift with this guy where he now seems way more open and interested in repairing things, but still I’m not fully trusting of it yet. The urges to sabotage so as not to get further emotionally involved are there. We also have similar interests in terms of investing and he’s hinted at wanting to work together, but that’s a whole other topic.. Basically I still don’t know exactly where things are heading, just that there’s forward momentum and I don’t want to prevent it by being wrapped up in the past or not being able to control my own emotional impulses.

Hence my sudden interest in meditation.. but yes thinking about it excessively is exactly the problem lol.

MesaMan

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Hey O ~

As I read your Post #89, some fundamental truths lept right off this Laptop Display. I'd like to propose an Alt Explanation to the Workplace Dynamics you mention. It comes down to two words: Myers Briggs.

I took the Myers Briggs Assessment twice over the Years. The first time, my benevolent Boss had us all take it as a Tool to move our Department forward by better understanding Coworkers. The more important MB Test results were from me taking it again a few Years into Sobriety.

Turns out that I, and a good Pal of ~5 Decades, are in this rarefied subset of the 2% or 3% that have our unique combo of MB-tested Characteristics. In a Nutshell, we can view several Factors simultaneously, and see how a situation will resolve. It's almost as if we're clairvoyant, but that's not it. We can simply plot multiple trends, and predict outcomes dispassionately.

So, when you lay out your Work situation of being 'right', I truly get it. For Decades, my combo of Characteristics would get me into hot water socially because I was already thinking on down the Road of social outcomes. I would wonder 'why can't everyone see this *obvious* stuff'? Indeed, my Pal spent his Career administering MB Tests in Workplaces, and is a real master Facilitator at what it all means.

The free version of the MB Assessment is a lil harder to come by on line these Days, so here's a free, truncated version of it. One trick is to answer the questions without over-thinking them, and then move along.

~ Human Metrics Personality Test ~

Knowledge is power. Even if your Coworkers never wind up taking the MB Test, you'll likely better understand why they do what they do. And, your fit into it all. <- That was my veritable breakthrough.

Had I understood 'what' I am earlier in Life, I might have knocked off the Power Drinking sooner. It was a misguided attempt at trying to fit in that went right off the Rails. Ultimately, Early Retirement was my solution, along with more-fully understanding/embracing my Introversion once Sober.

Obladi

Thanks for that reminder, MesaMan! I actually know I'm INFP (or J depending on the day). I hadn't thought to incorporate that into my current Frustration Factor. I actually started a thread on this long ago.

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...-recovery.html (Personality Type and Recovery)

Dropsie

O,

Maybe I need to practice my zen but I would be FURIOUS if a superior took over my project/idea in the manner you describe.

WTF?

XX

Stayingsassy

I’m going to sound sort of reactionary here because I know we are in a new era and all in regard to relationships between the sexes but I sort of get the inkling that it can be very hard for women sometimes to stay balanced in intimate relationships with men with whom deep down, if we are being honest with ourselves, we want a commitment.

I know it was always pretty easy to do the friends with benefits thing before marriage when I felt casual also, but once I had feelings: watch out.

Even in sobriety, even after 23 years of marriage, I find myself emotionally tilting a bit in response to my husband, a person who I had feelings for from the beginning. He has the capacity to do that to me. Not all men do.

I think sometimes we need things from certain men, and if it can’t be satisfied, it makes it hard to be balanced.

I also think alcoholics, addicts, dopamine junkies....can get off balance easy in relationships in general. I have to be very self aware, even in this long marriage. It was harder to be that aware when I was drinking, but I find now even in sobriety when I know exactly what I am saying and doing, I am still sometimes unbalanced.

Just some thoughts for you. I am like this also, if there is a man that I have “that” feeling for, i would be tempted to stay involved at any cost because the high of being with that man is a high quite unlike any other.

fini

ugh....i get tired of always coming out INFJ. enough already!

Cosima11

Thanks for your thought Sassy. It's true, I want a commitment from him. Yet I know I was in no state to ask for or sustain a healthy commitment from anyone when this whole mess started. So that's part of it.. knowing I played a huge role in things not working out. I know I could start dating again, find someone who genuinely wants to treat me the way I want to be treated.. but then part of me wonders if holding on to this hasn't been a way of keeping myself out of the dating game. Because truthfully I haven't been ready yet.

But I'm definitely getting closer to being ready.. and I do feel like if he rejects me then, once I'm doing everything I possibly can to be a better version of myself, then I can really know it's not right, or meant to be.. I'm just not fully there yet, if that makes sense.

Stayingsassy

I don’t know though...you’re still Cosima, the woman you were then and the woman you are now. You embody all versions of you.

I’m sort of humbly understanding this now about myself. It’s been hard to reconcile that with my new zen peaceful perception of myself that in actuality is not really totally zen and peaceful, I’m pretty fiery and passionate and very, very emotional, too. I am selfish and jealous and possessive sometimes, and irrational and demanding at other times, too. I’m just more aware of it.

Yet, sometimes people come back to people because there really is something there, a spark that’s hard to ignore. Like I said if I were you I’d be doing the same thing, just don’t lose yourself in there....all of Cosima, all versions of her, are worthy of love.

Dropsie

Sass,

Great post, I was thinking when I read it that I often feel like this when I read your posts where I sometimes find you are being hard on yourself.

All versions of Sass are worthy of love.

I am 60, yuck. But way better than the alternative.

XX

Stayingsassy

For sure. We are all just human. I get hard on myself sometimes because I know the choices I often make will make me feel terrible, but I make them anyway. I don’t think I’m of less value when I make these choices even though it often feels that way..., but my quality of life has less value for sure.


Obladi, you’re doing very well and I’m happy you’ve found some concrete ways to avoid the booze, yet another choice (drinking) that doesn’t make people bad, it just makes people feel bad....