Hawkeye13

Hey Sass;

I don't really stay away from dairy--unfortunately, it is still a big part of my diet and I'm a real cream / cheese / butter fan. I think it will have to go as I get closer to goal weight. Right now it is a tasty crutch I need.

The studies I don't have copied anywhere, but I suggest you go to the 2 keto dudes website forum and you can search for all sort of content there--the site is very big on "show me the science" and though I've seen and heard about a number of them, it's all a blur in terms of specifics at the moment. Another place that talks about this topic is Mark Sisson / Mark's Daily Apple. He has an excellent podcast all backed up with peer reviewed research.

The early two keto dudes podcasts are also very science-oriented and they repeatedly stress not overdoing the exercise. They have links to all their research so much will be found there if you look through and listen to a few.
Lots of the keto based podcasts are talking about this right now.
In terms of stall, beyone just reducing activity, you should also see if you might be under-eating. Not getting enough calories also sends your metabolism into "conservation mode" and makes losing weight much harder as your body keeps down-regulating to keep status quo. I think based on what you've said, both of these things may be significant factors in not getting the results you want, but also don't dismiss the time factor.

Deranged metabolisms simply take time to recover. Drinking has seriously damaged our systems, and sugar addiction really does take time to undo and heal. Just like quitting drinking--your brain is still fixing itself, isn't it?

I've been keto for 6-7 months more or less and ate a relatively clean paleo before that. I estimate I've taken off 50 pounds or so but my alcohol relapses and the big carb relapse when my brother visited from Oz really threw a spanner in the works and some of that is gained / lost cycle due to my poor choices.

Another place to find excellent peer-reviewed content is pubmed--that's where most laypeople can access this content without paying for it, and that's a great place to check as well.

I'm prepping for work next week and don't have time to pull things to link right now as my procrastination means I'm double-timing this weekend and next week.

The easiest way to get answers about research and best protocol is simply to join the two keto dudes forum.

If you do that, you can ask your questions directly and people are very helpful with links to articles, stories about what worked for them, and many have a great deal of knowledge and have been doing keto for years.

You can also read around and use their search engine for specific topics that have been posted on.

Here is a link to that--it's really helpful https://www.ketogenicforums.com/

I'm glad this has been helpful. I really think keto is a two birds with one stone for drinkers and menopause hormone / metabolic healing for women who are past their (ahem) 20s

Stayingsassy

Perfect. I’m going to go down those rabbit holes you mention tonight....after we finish Saturday projects.

Dropsie

Sass,

Glad to hear you are back in the saddle. I do think its like drinking in the sense that we have to avoid that all or nothing thinking. You took a day off, but now back on. And the really important thing is that you did not have the beer.

I also want to thank everyone for their posts, which I found very enlightening.

When I was a child, I was totally into sugar, then stopped when I drank, and now again. To hear so many people describe the same pattern is interesting.

So, yes, lots of people crave sugar after they stop drinking, but maybe for some of us its because we have always had a sugar addiction and were using alcohol to feed that addiction.

This means that to stop with the sugar is really the final stage in the process that we have started by stopping with the booze. Never thought about it that way.

Of course, not drinking is paramount, but for me seeing the potential relation between the two will be helpful in keeping me away from the ice cream.

This could argue in favor of eating as much sugar as one wants in early recovery so you are not trying to do too much at one time. But it does mean we have a second demon to slay later (as we have learned).

I had an interesting experience yesterday. I have not eaten any fruit since the beginning of the month, but bought some strawberries for my daughter's birthday and had a few. Not sure its a good idea as it made me want more because they were so sweet. Stopped at the portion size, but still. First time I have had any food lust since starting keto.

So I guess its no fruit for me, but shows me just how hooked I am. I do not have the same with other carbs, as I really dont like to eat much.

Sass, what this says to me is that it is not easy. But like with drinking, for me, moderation does not work with sugar. And it seems that fruit is a trigger for me, which is a bummer, and the easiest way to avoid sugar is keto.

Thanks again for all your thoughts.

Cosima11

All my cross addictions seem to have just sort of fizzled out lately..I suppose it's nice but where is the excitement? Lol I stick to minimal sugar, minimal sex, zero cigarettes.. So my lizard brain is mostly sleeping and/or pouting off in a corner somewhere. I've even run out of things to say about my (non) relationship. Currently trying to put a lot more focus and effort into work.

I think it can take many tries to really be free of the cross addiction. I understand what you're saying though about wishing you could just quit food altogether. I can't just stop relationships (or sex for that matter) entirely either. I don't plan on being single for the rest of my life just because I have some issues to work through. That's not the solution.

Not sure I have much practical dietary advice but since meditation has been brought up.. Yoga has been a game changer for me. It's not the same kind of "buzz" I get from regular exercise at the gym. It's more like an emotional detox.. plus a gateway into exploring different mindsets and even just learning metaphorical coping mechanisms.

I also find it useful to identify the AV's narrative whenever and however it may show up. Often times it's very self deprecating. It goes something like.. I'm not worthy, not capable, and my life will fall apart without this one thing.. I see some of that in your thought process with sugar. I honestly don't have the slightest idea what the best ways to go about building better self esteem are.. but again meditation helps by detaching from all the noise. Also affirmations. Which seem ridiculous at first but can really start to seep into your subconscious. Anyway I'm rambling now but just wanted to say keep at it and don't give up!

Stayingsassy

Well, my one day on sugar has morphed into Saturday, and now I’m going to the mountains with my mom and youngest for a couple days: my mother is a food pusher (despite putting me on diets since age 9) and I won’t be getting back to this until Tuesday. Of course I am back up 5 pounds since Tuesday.

I’m struggling with the fact that I know if I stopped exercise, I’d drop the weight much more easily. I don’t know why that is. I saw something in the Ketogenic forum (thanks Hawkeye) about how the body can only do one thing at a time. I was hiking a lot in Hawaii but no weight training, now that I’m home, I did two days last week of bodyweight training: pushups, ab work, squats, rowing: my usual stuff, and it halted weight loss and made me hungry.

I was losing weight until I went back to the workouts, which I struggle with, because there is nothing like moving through life with the feeling of strength: the ease of lifting anything, the solid feeling when you move, back strength, etc. it’s hard to describe but when your body can handle heavy load and your core is solid and strong it feels different. I’m just not going to stop these kinds of workouts, so I’ve decided when I go back to keto, I also need to stop weighing myself. No more weighing. For at least a month. What do I expect the scale to show when I’ve stressed and torn up muscle fibers and they must recruit water to repair?

My weight simply isn’t at a point where getting it all off at once is an emergency.

But guys...I have to sing again, in October for another show. My husband has realized it makes his wife happy to give her a guest spot at his gigs, sometimes. I don’t demand it or even mention it, but I sure perk up when he includes me in it and who doesn’t like a perky wife? Lol.

I need vanity weight off, and I’ve got just enough time to make a dent. I’m fairly certain it’s going to be time to start measuring things, and keeping things more simple. If what dropsie said is right, I may just end up getting frustrated that things are moving too slow, because I am a hormonal mess. But I’m going to try anyway.

Thanks for coming in to discuss it all....

Dropsie

Thanks to Hawks great suggestions, I googled around today and learned a lot. The science part of the Two Dudes site had a link to a great site run by a doctor called Protein Power. I found the site hard to navigate, but the info on the link was great.

So the good news is that I made it through the birthday party without cheating, which is amazing. The bad news is that I was weak all day and a first class b$tch to my boyfriend, who does not deserve that at all, whihc makes me feel like sh$t.

Sass, Great news about the gig. I could not excercise now to save my life, but I am not a big work out person anyway and I amazed at all of you that are. I hope you have a great trip with your mom and daughter and do what feels right on Tuesday. Everyone is different, for me, I am just surprised at how little I crave anything now, but not being able to function is not good. I ordered some great oil that I hope will help me funtion better until the package arives, and will try and pick up something at the health food store to tide me over. Feeling faint and b$tching is not good.

X

Grymt

Patience. To me, that means being tolerant of my experiences because a lot of my experiences are unpleasant. A few days ago I went cold turkey on sugar. I find I have to treat it the same as when I stopped smoking. I gave away a box of lollies. I put aside another box to give away and found that risky so I threw them in the bin for collection this morning. I've put a load of stuff in the wash and cleaned out the fridge and cupboards of anything sweet. That reminds me I've got a jar of peanut butter to throw away. Honey. Jams.... Anyway. Gotta be serious about this.. I've read enough horror stories about sugar.

I think it's important to know your enemy. Did you know that skulls dug up in London from before sugar was 'discovered' have good teeth and since after, rotten. One thing an addict has to face in recovery is fixing a mouth full of neglected teeth. This is unpleasant and expensive. It's taken, for me, joining a dental insurance plan and about 30 visits to get to the point where only yearly maintenance is needed.

Maintaining a sugar habit is expensive in so many ways. Long and short term. It's so much like other addictions and need to be treated that way, imo. And I think my opinion is basically correct.

One of the first things that happens is just like cigarette withdrawals. I find myself reaching for a sweet for all sorts of reasons. So, throw temptation out. If it's. Too much to cope, replace with something relatively harmless like air popped corn. Its actually a good substitute when losing weight. Cubes of cucumber...

Do something wholesome. Pull out a few weeds. Sweep the floor. Go to the gym. Contribute to SR. Write a letter. Anything worthwhile doing.

For me one of the most worthwhile things is meditating. Just practicing watching the cravings come and go. This starts to reform the basic habits of just being a slave to the feelings of wanting. In time, with a lot of patience, the intensity of the wanting subsides and serenity is there.

Dropsie

How is everyone?

I seem to have settled more into a keto pattern that I can live with and start to feel better, less dizzy etc.

Stayingsassy

I was supposed to get back on today. I was doing a lot of research about GreySheeters, an offshoot of OA.

But then, my eldest daughter had an interview and wanted ice cream, my youngest wanted to go school shopping with a friend and that involved lunch and dinner, so the friend stayed late to swim and watch movies, and there was Mac and cheese and pizza.

So I did an omad, and I’m sort of sitting here conflicted about keeping omad or going back for more....it’s sort of a back and forth and back and forth in my head.

I was doing omad before Hawaii and I liked it, but then I was going to be keto and now I’m thinking of omad again.....cause if you know anything about omad, it = you can eat what you want which = sugar.

I don’t know how to do sobriety without sugar, it’s dark and difficult and it feels like hell, people.

Stayingsassy

You’re a stronger woman than me...

On another note my husband’s weight loss tally is now 25 lbs. and he is getting more and more irritated about the white carbs he keeps finding in the home, which I buy....I think he was thinking keto would stick for me. Not yet.

Stayingsassy

Also, by white carbs I don’t mean cauliflower.

MyLittleHorsie

LOL Sassy, one year Dh and I were training to do a 100km ride for charity, I kept buying cookies to sabotage him. It backfired because he gained a suit size lol

This weekend is our annual trip to the Canadian National Exhibition. It is like what I imagine your state fairs to be. Dh worked on the grounds constructing a stage and said the rides came from Texas. A full day of walking, eating weird stuff and possibly barfing, before the concert that night. It is also Food Truck Frenzy weekend there. I fully expect to eat badly. I have been looking at the options of what I might want. Doritos corn dog maybe, pickle pizza, probably, pickle lemonade, maybe, cookie dough icecream, not a chance lol. There is small doughnuts, I think they are Tiny Tim's is the booth, those I get every year. We have a food allergy, so we plan our food ahead. As my youngest has gotten older, her allergy is harder for her to accept. So I will download the food map and whatever youngest decides, I will get too. Unless dh wants it, but usually he doesn't.

Then the kids will get me on the big ferris wheel, while I am all anxietied out on sugar. They just do it because I am all, stop moving, I hate heights, are you seriously rocking this thing, sit still you monsters!

Stayingsassy

Yep we have those fairs, the food is so bizarre it’s almost grotesque. Little story: I have a thing about soft serve ice cream, so when we went to the fair we all got one. It was not cheap. And it was terrible. It was icy and didn’t taste like dairy. It was so bad that we threw them out and as a family we left the fair and went to Suzie burger, a vintage drive in burger place in my city that has beautiful soft serve: tastes like cream.

So choose carefully: when I’m eating something good I need quality...but I am from California, very farm to fork, all our fruits and vegetables are fresh and incredible. And will be, until California is all ocean and underwater someday, but that is a different story altogether.

Heading into a round of extended fasting. I’ve just had it. I’m overeating on keto, I’m overeating on omad, and the only thing that stops this craziness is to mix up some electrolyte water and quit food for awhile.

Be well all.

MyLittleHorsie

I do a lot of egg drop soup for work. Just boil chicken bone broth and veggies, stir in an egg lightly beaten. I add a teaspoon of sriracha, but that's me...

For whatever reason it works, whether the salt I put in the broth, or the egg. I really want to learn to make hot and sour soup, for some reason, those Asian style soups always fill me right up.

Dropsie

For me, this Keto thing is a bit like stopping drinking in the sense that it is all or nothing and if you cheat, there goes the rodeo for me, because it took me a long time to get to ketosis and it was painful, and I know one fro yo and the gig is up. So now that I am here, I treat everything that might take me out a bit like I would taking a drink -- nope, dont eat that.

And the thing is, other than maybe strawberries, I dont want to eat anything anymore. So I force myself to eat what I am allowed to, and for the rest, food is kind of off the table.

But I really dont like to eat anyway like most people and always eat tiny portions, which I know is odd, especially for someone who is 30 pounds overweight. And I actually dont eat particularly bad either. So I thought when I cut out the 1-2000 calories of alcohol, I would lose weight, but nada.

And I have been chubby but not fat my whole life so I have kind of gotten used to it, but I have a big b/d coming up involving a 6 and decided if Idont take it off before then, I never will and its unhealthy becuase it is all belly fat.

So I guess I wonder whether after your fast you shouldn't give keto another try because it might be like drinking, once you get into it, food kind of become a non-issue, and you just take non-keto foods off the table. That is how it worked for me anyway so far.

I also think everyone has to find the keto foods that work for them and like Hawk says keep it simple.

LH, loved to hear about the local fair -- I am going to tell you all about our local fair in another post LH, its so fun.

entropy1964

Ok I gotta join you guys in this whole diet thing. I'm a small girl. 5'2, 116 lbs. Medium build so busty and all that...not super petite. Not fat. Not thin. Just me. But jesus me needs to lose some weight. Not a lot, like 10 lbs, but I literally can't stand myself.

Yesterday I had to go to a bbq with my kid at the honors college. Its like a private college inside a large public school. Its kinda lame actually but that's another conversation. I felt like a hot sausage the whole time.

I already barely eat. It sucks. I work out all the time. I prefer a plant based diet. I can't sit around and snack on saturated fat....that'll make me nuts.

Does anyone do keto and not eat animals the whole time? And fat. I mean, I can't eat avocado all day long. I won't eat typical 'atkins' type food...its just counter intuitive. I have done keto, but I gave up and did the animal, saturated fat thing.

I'm not a vegetarian. But I just can't consume meat that isn't responsibly sourced. It makes me crazy now. What's a girl to do?

Dropsie

If you are 5'2'' 116 pounds, go to the end of the line, cause you are thin!

entropy1964

Haha. No I'm not. And 5 lbs on me is literally a clothing size so its doesn't take much.

I know I'm not fat. I also have a horrid relationship with food. And body image issues....so its a tough topic for me.

Believe me, I have brought this stuff up in rehab, because my drinking is tied to my self esteem issues and body image problems, and would get angrily shut down by other women because they think "ok you aren't fat so just shut the **** up".

I know its a tough thing. In a society where most people are huge now, being 10 lbs overweight is considered thin. I remember always being the fat kid. Always being put on diets when I was a child. Mom not letting me eat dinner if she felt I wasn't getting thin enough. Being teased relentlessly at school.

Argh. Yeah. I'll go away! Haha. Its hard to be understood....blah. Nevermind

Dropsie

Flips,

Please don't go away.

I am not saying that your feeling of being overweight is not totally valid, but that is what it is, a feeling, because the facts are otherwise. A BMI of 21.6 is on the low end of normal, but you know that.

But you are what you feel, and we all want you to feel fantastic, so here my advice about keto.

You can do it without eating much meat, but to make it work practically, you would may need to go a bit heavy on dairy.

I myself do not eat a lot of meat, and when I do I keep it very high fat on keto. But to be able to function, the result is that I eat a lot more dairy than I ever would normally.

There is a lot written about low or no meat keto, I think I would start with the two dudes website.

My experience is that it really does work, but is took me a long time to transition and be able to function.

X

murrill

Recovery, for me, has to do with healing my relationship with food. Until about 10 years ago I was pretty "normal." I began to gain weight and didn't know what to do about it. "Eat less, exercise more," they said. It didn't work. I began calorie counting and lost weight. I drifted from the calorie counting site, gained weight, felt remorse...the cycle was in motion. I've repeated the pattern multiple times, and late last year I acknowledged that I have an eating disorder. I am a binge eater. Restricting or dieting is a red flag: I'm setting in motion that old cycle. Weight is not a measure of how well I am doing. I'm far from cured, but I am losing the emotional attachment to food. Yes, sometimes I "eat my feelings." But I find I have less unhealthy relationships with food. I try to eat three balanced meals daily, and I make room for a couple of snacks. I'm not thinking about food all the time. Sugar can still be a problem, but I am more aware now.