MyLittleHorsie

Lol I called it tomato stew. I think tofu works, I get nauseous when I eat tofu. My friend says it's a sensitivity possibly. I just put every vegetable I can find in with dried chilis and chili powder.
I like to do a couple days vegetarian a week, which can be hard with keto/low carb. I figured tomato stew/not chili is good for nights I need something, just a cup of it. I have no issue fasting during the day, evenings are harder, but lunch is the only meal I am consistent with. My evenings are usually occupied, so I cannot eat at a consistent time. I let my youngest steer my SUV, sitting between my legs, looking forward to when they drive for real and I am not a taxi. We're in the country and everything is 15 mins to a half hour away. When I work, I don't get back from the city til 5, then dance or skating, chores, bedtime is 8 for the youngest. Supper is a struggle. Thermoses of soup and cut up meat and cheese and veg, crockpot of broken lasagna, unrolled cabbage rolls, roasts... That's why I like omad, feed the kids, grab veg or veggie stew if I have to have something. Eat a decent lunch, today broccoli salad, roast beef, a pear and my pudding. Plus tea, water and grapefruit perrier.

I made caramel popcorn tonight, I ate a couple pieces. Caramel, the only thing I am really good at making! 6 bags for the bake sale.

Stayingsassy

Update...

Couple things have changed, and I’m trying to figure out carefully why the tide has shifted a bit.

I started taking the multivitamin 50+ for active women (found at Trader Joe’s) about a week ago. I am NOT a meds or supplement person. But, this tablet had a lot of b vitamins in it, compressed greens, probiotics, choline and chromium in it, so I though why not?

I also stopped exercising. Still doing housework and moving, not lying in bed but no exercise.

Since that point, I have been able to eat intuitively, my weight seems to be stabilizing, sleeping better. I have bought candy, had much less interest in it: eating a small amount after eating dinner, etc. I am effortlessly intermittent fasting, although that is my norm. I eat between one pm and 6 pm usually, but lately I don’t have that rigid “I can’t eat no matter what” thing in my head...if I am hungry I’ll eat at 11am, or add a meal at 7pm if I need to. These behaviors are unprecedented for me.

I’m trying to sort out whether it is consistent IF, the supplement, or stopping exercise. But something I have done recently is really helping to stabilize me, and I don’t know what it is.

Headed out to the gym for the first time in a while. I’m wondering if it’s a bad idea. How can going to the gym be a bad idea???? Yet I wonder, in my case.

But I miss bouldering SO MUCH. so I’m will probably end up going. Maybe I can consider it a control in my personal experiment of one.

Hope all is well with everyone.

Hawkeye13

I do think you’ve been over exercising. Good call on backing off.

Glad things are looking up

Stayingsassy

Exercised yesterday, not a ton. 4000 meters on the rower in 20 min, 25 pushups, 100 abmat sit-ups, 60 deep squats.

My shoulder started pinging at me at the 25 push-up mark, usually I go to failure which is around 40. At some point I was able to do regular pushups a few years back, so even when I’m in my cave I do them. If I keep doing them I’ll never have to get to the point where I can’t do them.

My shoulder hurt until I took a THREE HOUR (yes you heard that right) epsom salt bath, while watching 600 pound life, which is the best show on food addiction that exists today. Shoulder pain subsided by the end of the bath: always stop at the first sign of a twinge when you exercise. I follow this rule and I’ve almost never been hurt, even in the most strenuous of workouts. I used to be injured constantly as a runner. I don’t run anymore.

Fasting.

This morning I’m at hour 36, and I felt ten years younger when I bounded out of bed earlier. Light on my feet. Ready to go back in and stay warm with the husband on these very cold mornings.

Plan is to fast for as long as I can, hoping to go to Tuesday: I need to meet my mom at the beach for her birthday.

Off to work all weekend! Hope all is well with the health thread folks. I am feeling like a new woman today.

MyLittleHorsie

Everything is good here. We were on a farm tour today, good 8 hours on my feet, ate tonight, don't think I drank enough water. Tired and ready for bed, but we have a club meet tomorrow, I am taking trifle, waiting for dh to get home with milk to finish the pudding part.
Of course the kids clothes were not ready for tomorrow, so laundry, blech.
Have to figure out meals for week. Prep everything tomorrow night when we get home.
Going to do a quickie 10 minute flow tonight. 4am start, 4 kids tomorrow.

Hawkeye13

How you feeling and how is / did the fast go Sass?

How are you MLH and other friends? Cooking for kids sounds challenging.

I mixed it up this week with some shorter fasts and a feast or two. Down about two pounds so far but still fluctuating before it stabilizes. That’s a pretty clear pattern for how this all works for me.

Stayingsassy

This fast was cut short. Learning a new system at work, and on hour 45 or so (on Sunday) I hit a mental wall. Suddenly couldn’t think, major brain fog, and that is completely no bueno for my job especially when we have a new program to learn.

Here’s my thoughts: I’m not keto. So when I run out of glycogen my body freaks. If I were keto and fasted I’d have much more fuel flexibility. Also: I read a blog post about someone who did ten days and he said when he hit the mental wall he didn’t break the fast, he took mct oil. It cleared his thinking almost immediately, having exogenous ketones, might also prime the system for fat burning better in a fast.

Going into another one soon. I have to work tomorrow but I’ll be on the first day so I should be fine.

How about you Hawkeye? Fasting going well?

Also....doesn’t it feel incredible at times, it’s really the one thing that hits that pleasure button in my brain better than the usual things you’d think would do the trick.

MyLittleHorsie

Hi Hawkeye, Sassy and other friends!

Nothing to report, plugging along, life is a little busy right now. Some days I eat the way I should, other days I grab a rolo icecream cone.

I do pay for those indulgences, very active, outdoors weekend, so that could be part of it too. This upcoming weekend is a long weekend, Thanksgiving. Going to my parents, but otherwise no big meals planned. Dh and I are both working our side hustles this weekend anyways

Cosima11

Hey yall I have a random question... what's the deal with Stevia? Yay or nay?

Yesterday I really wanted pancakes and found a recipe with stevia and it was great. Since I'm not trying to avoid carbs or flour or anything, using stevia as a sugar substitute could open a lot of doors, but still I hesitate. Surely there's a catch?

The only obvious one being that my mind thought I was eating sugar so immediately went to thinking some Nutella would be great with this. But if I could avoid that trap..

I've also seen lots of recipes (mostly vegan or paleo or something like that) for sugar free deserts and it seems like a rabbit hole I should probably stay out of, but still I'm intrigued.

Anyway, hope everyone else is doing well!

Libby06

That is a great question Cosima. I am very curious as well. I have been adding it to my tea, but I am thinking that if it tastes this good, it can't be good for me.

I am always fascinated with people that can manage to fast for long periods of time. For me, it triggers alot of unhealthy anorexia tendencies. I get a high from it, and that scares me. Ive quit smoking 3 months ago and my eating habits are less than stellar right now, but I enjoy following this thread.

MyLittleHorsie

I really dislike stevia, I do not like the taste. I like monkfruit.
Desserts are a slippery slope for me, however dh makes awesome far bombs with nut butter, coconut oil and cacoa. I add coconut to same for something like a haystack.
When the girls were young, they only got whole grain flour and all natural sugars like unpasteurized honey and maple syrup from the farm. Dh even wanted to start bee keeping at one point I can't have ducks, but he can have bees. Correction, I can have ducks, if he can shoot them from the back deck. We really are white trash with a bit of money. We were super healthy during that time.

My kids like stevia, I do not. Monk fruit is often combined with erythritol, the latter is poisonous to pets. I would take any, in homemade over processed sugar free. Just watch, not necessarily cup for cup in replacing and stevia and erythritol are heat stable.

Hawkeye13

Hi Libby and welcome!

Cosmia, I don't use any artificial sweeteners because I don't like the taste, but what I've read is that some people can have some types with no problem, but other people may spike their insulin or not lose weight from using them.

It actually can come down to the specific brand / type of sweetener and the individual. Some can have Stevia no problem, others not at all, but monk fruit doesn't trigger a response, for example.

It's an N = 1 situation where you have to experiment and see what works or doesn't. I personally find it easier just to not use any type of sweetener as it tastes kind of nasty to me and I find it triggers cravings.

Sass, fasting went just fine. I did two shorter fasts this past week to "mix it up" as Jason Fung suggested, instead of the longer one I've done the two previous weeks before this one.

I'm actually planning to change it up again next week and do an extended fast longer than the 72-80 plus hours I have been doing before that. I realize it is diminishing returns past 72 hours, but I think for detox purposes (getting the oxalates targeted and out ASAP as they take so long) I'm going to try it. Also, I have quite a bit of brain work required at my job the next few weeks and fasting really clears and focuses my mind, so I'm hoping to reap a double benefit of mind and body.

We will see how it goes and I will play it by ear day by day. I "feasted" on keto foods these past few days, and I am hoping that will help my body not lower metabolism in response to some extra days, but will stay dialed into my body's responses.

Even "feasting" I have lost two inches off my waist this week, despite no weight scale movement downwards, and also I noticed this morning that my favorite bra is now pretty much too large in terms of band size as my body composition changes. Clothing is looking much better. This kind of change I feel is a result of real keto adaptation. It has been worth the long protracted time it has taken of honest, no "cheating / lapsing" sticking to keto foods--over five months of that--so it is clear that even though I have been low carb etc. successfully in the past, I clearly still had insulin resistance due to "treat day" or just plain eating sugar at times which impeded my results.

I'm still playing the long game. It is hard at times but I want to finally get my body and mind healthy and where it needs to be for strength, mobility, and feeling / looking healthy and fit so I can get back on the trails running again and lifting heavy weights without pain in my knees, plus get my pull ups back
(i LOVE being able to do real pull ups and toes-to-bar as it makes me feel young. . . )

Libby06

Thanks Hawkeye😊
You really know alot about nutrition! I am cutting off the Stevia. I never made the connection to it causing cravings for real sugar, but it sure does. I need to get my nutrition back on track.

I went from being pretty much orthorexia, to eating bad a little, to eating whatever. Its going to a downhill spiral. I have been waking up feeling hungover, much like from the booze, and feeling shameful for what I ate the day before.

I think I am switching addictions over and over again. It is quite the opposite of the thread title "health and wellness".

Ive quit smoking and started hrt. I was afraid to take it while smoking, and just kind of suffered with all the lovelies of menopause. Now im waffling with fasting, then rewarding with food. Pride, shame, pride shame. Im whining. Im sorry.

I quit alcohol 4 years ago, and smoking 100 days ago. I just keep picking up another vice. Perhaps more exercise will help.
Thanks for being here.

Stayingsassy

Well, this was the whole point of the thread...so this is exactly where this belongs.

I’m going to have to quit sugar and starch. Not in October....October is party month in my head, and without booze, I’m afraid I’ll ping pong again.

(I have a lifelong ping pong game with alcohol and sugar. I never win the game,)

Stayingsassy

Reading “potatoes not Prozac” this weekend.

Struggling with my sugar addiction lately even though I have to get onstage on Saturday 10/26. Timing sucks. Not just for weight but also the right attitude and confidence that eating well gives me. Oh well. It is what it is.

I am back to the gym and that always helps my mental health.

This book: is quite revelatory to me. I’m not sure I believe it all. But I’ve been struggling so much. What she has to say about lowcarb eating has rung true for me...she said it can be great for awhile until it makes some people “restless and uneasy.” I think that was the point in my various lowcarb journeys where I would begin drinking again, probably to soothe the raw feelings I had from the diet.

I have concerns about keeping sobriety with a lowcarb diet. Because lowcarb and getting drunk have such close associations for me, I am genuinely concerned about the times in sobriety when I almost picked up a drink 2 weeks into keto. It’s not worth my sobriety. It just isn’t.

This book is for alcoholics, sober alcoholics and sugar addicts. These are the people she worked with. She goes into great detail about serotonin levels, beta-endorphin levels and the number of receptors natural alcoholics have compared to nonalcoholics.

She said the brain of sugar and alcohol addicted people is different than the brain of normal people....because serotonin and beta-endorphin are naturally low (from childhood) the brain adapts by keeping a large number of receptors open. When the person drinks, or eats sugar: it floods these receptors.

This is why my high from alcohol was ten times stronger than other people’s high. This is why sugar “dopes” me. The same would be true for opiates if I had played with those (I knew better). Then, that feeling is so Good, so intense, and so much better than our baselines that we keep using.

She also said that an alcoholic brain is an alcoholics brain even if alcohol is not used. It creates a void for other substances. The sugar addiction creeps in, or the drugs, even if alcohol is never used.

Then she has this nutritional plan to heal, but she’s smart. She’s worked with enough people to know we don’t do well with all or nothing. She knows most of us will throw in the towel.

She starts with breakfast. She said breakfast has to happen within an hour of waking with 1/3 of your protein need for the day. Protein need is 1/2 body weight for sugar sensitive or alcoholic people.

Then she says....hang out with this breakfast rule for awhile.. nothing else changes. Don’t change what you eat. Don’t automate meals, don’t count, don’t give up sugar yet.

Just do step one: breakfast, with a ton of protein and some complex carb.

Then you move on from there.

This breakfast thing stopped me in my tracks, because I really, really don’t want to do it. Then she said “ the last thing sugar sensitive people want to do is eat a protein rich breakfast, they want to not eat, because not eating gives them a beta-endorphin hit.”

It’s like she’s reading my mind. Because I know this is supposed to be a long process, I may start her steps after Halloween, mostly because I’m not done being an addict right now.

She said something interesting about withdrawal of sugar and alcohol also. She explained that because the alcoholic brain fills all receptors with alcohol when drinking, and there are far more open receptors than a normal persons brain, the sudden withdrawal of the alcohol is a shock to the system. The person feels terrible. Then....beta endorphin and serotonin go even lower, and there are even more receptors than before, so when the person drinks again....kindling. And more severe withdrawal with cessation of alcohol. She calls drinking or eating piles of sugar in an alcoholics brain “priming the pump.”

Fascinating. Definitely some very pertinent food for thought this weekend.

Dropsie

Book sounds amazing, ordering now. Thanks!

Stayingsassy

Let me know what you think when you read it.

Honestly, I don’t think there’s a recovering alcoholic alive who wouldn’t be drawn to this book. There’s a lot discussed in it that I’ve never heard in recovery circles and I’ve been around recovery talk a long.....long time.

Probably because very few people want to acknowledge sugar addiction.

She goes into a lot of personality traits of alcohol and sugar sensitive people that made me a little emotional. I’m not sure I was ready to read that.

I’m not sure I can even take a moderate approach like this to eating, but I think it’s worth a try, and honestly since she eases you in so slowly, it doesn’t seem that off putting.

There are 7 steps and apparently people get hung up on steps sometimes for months. They just take a long time to become habits when you’re used to using food as a drug.

Aellyce

There are many ways to lose weight and get good nutrients other than reducing carbs to unnatural levels or completely cutting them out. I've never had any issue with sugar and it is easy (preferred) for me to even completely avoid added sugar and sweets in general, because I just don't like the taste and also don't like the effects of sugar on my physiology and mood. I was interested in it more when younger but definitely not since I quit drinking. I think people have differences in these things. I'm also not really prone to depression, I only truly experienced significant forms while drinking heavily. I have a life-long anxiety issue though and just recently discovered something for it that is no prescription and seems quite helpful without any side effects, tolerance or abuse potential so far. I'll make sure not to use it too long at a time and not to increase the amount because I don't want it to lose effectiveness or to fry my system again by habitually providing it with something external.

Also, regarding breakfast - I like a good breakfast but mostly when I am traveling or have time to prepare some interesting meal, and not within an hour of waking but more. When I don't have breakfast (most often), it does not make any difference in my mood (given that I eat lunch no later than 1-2pm) other than sometimes some annoying stomach ramble. More typically, eating breakfast tends to make me hungrier throughout the day and then my total intake will be more for the day... so not the best method if I want to limit calories. That intermittent fasting thing is somehow really how my body naturally likes to be. But no longer fasts, those will definitely affect my mood and cognitive abilities negatively rather than positively.

For those that are addicted to sugar - is it really like addiction to alcohol or drugs, that moderation long-term is impossible and one has to cut sugar out completely? Many of the alternative, popular diets are also not that balanced and healthy IMO, e.g. eating large amounts of fat or starving for a day or more regularly. Actually, for those that really like some of the more extreme diets (or fasting), isn't it also just a form of overdoing something for the sake of feeling good, much like drinking, drugs, eating a lot of sugar... at least to some extent?

Sassy, would you mind sharing what that book claims as personality traits associated with alcohol and sugar sensitivity? I don't think I'm gonna read it because the rest of the description does not sound appealing, but would be interested in that one, whether it is anything new relative to what's already well-known about that topic.

Stayingsassy

Hi allyce.

The author (Kathleen des Maison) talks about the sugar sensitive person having personality traits such as:

-emotional
-sensitive
-all or nothing thinking
-moody, finds moods are either high or low, not much in between
- baseline mood is low, seeks substances to provide a lift
-tired often
-problems with depression
-cries easily
-people call them “over sensitive”
-needs to hide from people a lot to “recover” from social situations
-easily overwhelmed

I fit all these, but I think these are generalizations she’s gleaned from her own personality (not a drinker, but child of alcoholics) and all the people she’s worked with and studied through the years.

As for explaining sugar addiction: there are very clear behavioral changes with intake of sugar. Some get depressed, some get immediately fatigued, and children become hyperactive. She said you can tell which children have the issue by how they respond after they are given sugar. Some children will gorge on it and become wild and uncontrollable (my older two kids were consistently like this) and some will eat a normal amount and then go play or learn as they usually do.

Sugar addiction is one of those things that is only truly believed by people who have it. I know I have it. My friends don’t believe I do, but my husband sees my hoarding patterns, the depression and the behavior changes in me, so he believes it now.

If you are not sugar addicted, you will have a hard time believing it, after all; you are fine after eating white flour and carbs, so everyone must be.

It’s a persistent problem in my life. It is different than alcohol. Alcohol charged me up, I lost weight, I didn’t sleep, I became hyper sexual, just a real manic ride. Sugar dopes me...I lose focus, become dreamy and high, sleep a lot, gain weight even with calories balanced...and when I stop the sugar, I feel like death for awhile.

But between sugar and alcohol, I’ve chosen sugar because it doesn’t have the damaging effects of the manic paranoia alcohol caused me. I’m stable. I’m often depressed, I binge heavily on sugar, and I don’t think as well, but my life is not upside down like it was when I was alcohol addicted.

I read the book and resonated with it, thinking “what a normal, sane way to approach eating. I should do that.”

Yet, after binging on bread and sugar all weekend, I’m now 50 hours into a fast, so yeah I’m not exactly doing it. Part of me doesn’t want to release the fast/binge cycle.

I have a singing gig on Saturday, practice went awesome last night, I have a costume planned. I simply want to fast right now. And eat enormous amounts when the gig is over.

I....should be eating moderately, but when eating and not eating play games with your brain chemicals, well....

I hope that answered your questions. I’m feeling fantastic right now because I haven’t eaten since Sunday night, it gets a little tougher on day 3 and 4. Hoping to go long...But my husband made bone broth over the weekend so I can ease back into eating before my gig if I have to.

Aellyce

Thanks for the response, Sassy. I most definitely believe that sugar (and more generally, food) addiction exists. It's not a question of belief at all. I do research on addiction for living and while my chosen professional field is not about food, there is ample evidence for it and also that the biological mechanisms between different types of addictions overlap a lot. Same brain circuits get out of balance in many ways.

I was more asking questions because sugar addiction is not something I've experienced first hand and am interested in the personal, anecdotal reports. So maybe I'll read that book after all. I did have an eating disorder though when I was very young (~age 10-22) and it was also progressive. I had one of the classic stories: it started out as anorexia, which eventually turned into bulimia. Very common progression. My anorexia never involved complete fasting for days - my body just cannot take that sort of thing, I feel weak, faint and very irritable even after ~20 hours of fasting. I was more the seriously and methodically selecting and restricting type. Then my binges almost never were on sugary foods because I never liked those much, more the savory, meaty, crunchy kinds. Looking back on it, a main factor why it developed into bulimia, I think, was because of the long excessive self-deprivation and restriction prior. I think the body can only take so much before it wants to compensate elsewhere. One reason I tend to suggest not going for extremes when it comes to diet, but I totally understand how that works and how difficult it can be to overcome - indeed, much like addiction to a drug. Sugar, in particular, generates very powerful reward signals in the brain and it affects physiology in major ways - why it is especially hard to stop when someone is hooked on it. It is definitely a very real struggle.

From all I know, those personality traits listed are often associated with many different mental health challenges - they basically describe people who are emotionally very sensitive, volatile, prone to fluctuations and are probably more susceptible to all sorts of external influences than average. I personally do not identify with any except "needs to hide from people a lot to “recover” from social situations" and "easily overwhelmed", but those are more related to being an introvert I think, and I never had the sugar problem. Emotional eating is very often focused on sweets though. What I have though is an elevated sensitivity to all sorts of environmental stimuli (sounds, light, smells, tactile, crowds etc) and that can be annoying even in my baseline - imagine how that was in alcohol withdrawal. Interestingly, I am not so sensitive emotionally though, I would say below average... but part of it may be automatic detachment, some form of dissociation, something I've learned early in childhood exactly because the default was more a hypersensitivity... not sure. We compensate in many different ways.

Speaking of emotional eating - not sure this experience is relevant here, but when I struggled with bulimia, I often felt particularly good, calm and content after a binge-purge cycle. It decreased my anxiety quite effectively (albeit very temporarily). I think the reason is because the purging, on the one hand, is a relief... and, on the other hand, it is known to induce the production of endorphin-type chemicals, leading to a level of sedation. I think prolonged fasting does that, too. Both of these are basically significant stresses and the body tries to compensate with these "feel good chemicals" and mental states, for survival. Part of the reason anorexia is addictive, too. It was >30 years ago for me so I don't remember the feelings too well, but it was definitely hard to admit to it when I was forced (by my worried parents) and I tried to do all sorts of tricky things to continue restricting... but then it just morphed into binging and then discovered purging. I was worried that once I get sober from alcohol long-term, perhaps the old eating disorder will come back but luckily hasn't so far. Maybe it helps that my diet has been pretty good for a long time and I do not deprive myself of any food type, I eat pretty much what I naturally like and crave. I do sometimes eat a bit too much meat

I hope you can find a more stable way out of the sugar thing and best wishes for the performance!