Stayingsassy

I read something yesterday that they’ve done scans on people in rehab after alcoholism, and apparently brain damage due to inflammatory responses continues for six weeks after sobriety.

This holds up with my lived experience, but what I find discouraging is where are the studies showing the point at which damage is arrested? This would be important to know.

It almost appears to be a healing response, but I didn’t see in the studies the point at which this inflammation improves.

Thoughts? Has anyone seen this?

I guess this lends even more weight to “it takes time.”

Dropsie

Sass,

I have seen the same studies, with the implicaiton being that the progression stops at about 2 months, but I have not seen that stated affirmatively. The researchers were very surprised at the continution of progression after the cessation of consumption, which also surprised me. Of course the damage takes longer to repair (as I can attest).

Let us know if you find anything else, I would be interested.

Briansy

I Imagine what happens in the brain of someone who is physically dependant but is an on / off binger v someone who is consistently drinking 25 units plus a day would be very different? Who knows. Although I know that I've permanently altered certain receptors in my brain which would result in the same unpleasant symptoms every time I took a drink (that nasty glutamate production), the thing I'm most interested in is whether my capacity to gain the same kind of pleasure from general activities as non-drinkers can ever be fully regained. I guess these things are so subjective, and we aren't yet advanced enough in understanding a lot of how the brain works that it's a bit of a moot point. Which is why most people here have more or less reached the conclusion that all we can do is stay abstinent and we are giving ourselves the best chance at a healthy brain and healthy life. As long as we're not abusing our body with other drugs of course!

Appreciate that doesn't really address your question.

Grymt

Yeah, sure, it takes time. But that's never all. To gain, or re-gain, serenity without booze or drugs means to do some hard work. If, like me, you don't believe in God as some entity that will magically transform you if you just believe hard enough, you have to realise you are somewhat responsible and. Change for the better depends on what you do. If you just sit on your butt and watch telly while stuffing your face you'll not just be in purgatory until you stop, you'll have a hell of a hole to pull all that lard out of while the habit is to stay in there and create even more **** to shovel. To clean out your body you have clean out your mind and to clean out your mind you have to clean out your body. So, don't do bad, unhealthy, things, do good, healthy things and cleanse the mind. One thing at a time, one day at a time.

Briansy

This is such a timely quote. I posted in another thread about feeling some mild pangs linked to restlessness but what I didn't mention was that today I ate not one, not two, not three, but FOUR magnum chocolate ice cream bars. That's just wrong. On top of a 2 piece KFC meal and a chicken katsu rice meal for dinner. Probably about 3500 calories. No wonder I felt like **** and was restless and not content and my mind strayed to unhelpful places. I have noticed a bit of what often happens to posters here - really hitting the sugar hard and just generally over-eating as a sort of replacement for the reward that alcohol provides the brain - the similarity being that both are actually bogus rewards that the brain gives far too much importance to after a while. Good to remain vigilant.

Sorry Sassy - we are really straying from the topic in hand here!! But it's been useful for me so at least there's that!

Stayingsassy

Well, now you’re discussing my cross addiction so I 100% relate.

I have struggled so much with food addiction in sobriety that I’ve found only fasting; utilized for varying periods of time, works. Otherwise I’m in a different kind of hole.

It’s important to tread carefully there. Check your weight, make sure you’re not letting it get too far out of hand or you’ll have a whole other mountain to climb. I weigh myself daily. It’s up, but not as far up as it would be if I didn’t always try to do something about it...

This is a very, very common problem in alcohol sobriety, so much that some alcohol rehabs are food controlled as well, not allowing hyperpalatable foods within, the idea being that nutrition is critical in the early months, and also the very high risk of food addiction.

It makes me wonder what the patients were eating at the time those scans were done. Sugar and processed junk can cause inflammation as well and we all know that’s how the majority of us get through the early months!

DayTrader

I've got a sponsor who'd probably be happy to argue that plenty of my brain damage has progressed for over 12 years...... lol

Dee74

I have only anecdotal evidence but it took me several years to get back things like my creativity, memory, and to feel my mind was as sharp as it ever was.

I find that encoiuraging rather than discouraging but keep in mind that my withdrawal included some mini strokes - it may not take as long for you

I think the brain is a great adapter - other parts of the brain can learn to take over from damaged bits.

D

Briansy

Sassy: yes, I was looking at my skin and why it wasn't clearing up as well as last time and 100% it's because I have been abusing sugar. It's interesting that Allen Carr makes mention of cross-addictions at the very end of his book - he mentions them in the context of advice that he gives which seems to directly contradict conventional wisdom on here. And that is to actually _not_ change loads of stuff in your life - to do all of the things or activities you might always do where alcohol was present or just generally (now I think it's understood that he doesn't mean sitting for 8 hours in a bar or for hours and hours in a darkened room but stuff like meals, social meetings in bars, weddings whatever). The idea being that the process he takes you through is to open your eyes so much to how toxic and bad for you - with NO benefits, none - that alcohol is - so you will CHOOSE not to drink - running away from it or changing your patterns completely to avoid it sends the message to your brain that you are doing so because alcohol is desirable and that the sense of deprivation you might experience in that awareness would actually drive you back to it? Pretty controversial here I know - but I kinda like it. The cognitive dissonance thing is so powerful and removing that I feel is key for me. But, sorry, to take this back to your point - an extension of this theory around not changing things is urging real caution around cross-addictions that may seem, in the short term, harmless like over-eating, sugar etc - but he maintains that this is to suggest there is a void in your life. If you stand back and really examine the reality of what alcohol is doing to you - and do so again and again and again like he does in his book (I think there are many such books inspired by Carr that buy into this method) then you should not feel a void - and if you don't feel a void there isn't that internal struggle between the primitive mid-brain and the rational brain - the dissonance - that actually makes you more likely to drink.

Funny, I wasn't consciously using sugar as a crutch but maybe I was doing it unconsciously which is concerning. One thing I think it's pretty crucial to have is a decent diet and being physically active - giving your brain the kind of reward that it was designed to encourage you to get - rather than those skewed rewards caused by drugs, alcohol, sugar.

Has anyone seen the 70 minute DVD (it's online somewhere for streaming) called "Pleasure unwoven"? It's really really good explaining the brain physiology stuff. Anyway, 9.35 AM here. No magnums for me today!!

Need2Know

There has been a lot of comments here about food pleasure other pleasure as substitutes for alcohol and during alcohol abstinence. It seems off topic but I wanted to comment on it so I will start a new thread.

Abraham

I literally just ate a magnum as I opened this thread. I still have the wrapper on my lap now. Those things are awesome!

Briansy

Just woke up and had the remaining two. Sigh...

Abraham

Yea, dont do that. I am working my butt off at work and according to my phone I am burning about 1700 calories a day (its probably more than that though) so I could afford the one last night. Still better than alcohol though.

Stayingsassy

The only reason I’ve managed not to become morbidly obese is my cross addiction to exercise.

My eating patterns though; they look eerily like my alcohol patterns. Abstinence, binge, abstinence, binge. It’s craziness. I also have not been able to eat anything without binging, the raw almonds lead to candy, etc like beer used to lead to liquor. It doesn’t seem tied to nutritional needs at all, whether I am fed or fasted, I binge, because I am seeking a high from food. So I fast, which is easy for me, and figure when I eat I’ll just binge in a window....this so far is managing things for me, especially if I start the eating window with a salad, and something else that’s fresh. Then I have a hard cutoff. I usually start eating around 5pm and stop around 6:30 or 7. Otherwise I just have a little black coffee or electrolyte water, for about 22 hours a day. It has freed my mind and the “food seeking” behavior where I don’t manage to do anything except drive to stores and buy junk food.

I have thought seriously about looking into OA simply because it would enhance my strength, endurance and agility goals. What you eat gets really important if you want to perform well in the gym, but I still look at food as a drug, I want to hoard it and “use” instead of just eating to eat.

wastedpotential

For the first few months I felt dumber than a box of rocks. As times progressed its got better and better. At 17 months it just recently felt like I hit a new level in being even clearer headed.

I'm staying better organized, keeping things cleaner and tackling things I've been putting off, even if I haven't perfected the whole procrastination thing.

cruiser1911

I'm slowly feeling better haven't had a big mental crash for a while but I think somethings just will never be as fun as they used to probably because it was the booze and not the activity that I liked. I love having the mental energy back but just this spring I was so depressed, (just reread my posts to remind myself) I think for me it has to do a lot with how much sun Im getting and my diet Im finally down pound wise to were I was when I quit drinking. I do know Im having issues staying focused on one task and that is driving me nuts