Evoo

Okay -- moving these thoughts from another sub-forum, but I am really hoping it can be a good/honest discussion within the rules and framework of SR. Please try to review them before posting so this doesn't get locked!

I have complex thoughts on this.

I used to swear by marijuana as the “cure” for alcoholism and moderation management. It was effective for a long time in small doses in "cutting off" my drinking before it became a binge, bender or hangover. There is little question in my experience that from a purely physical "harm reduction" standpoint, alcohol is hundreds times worse than marijuana in every conceivable way.

HOWEVER.

When I was using marijuana to moderate or as a replacement drug for alcohol, I ultimately found it disappointing. It worked as a replacement until it didn't. While trying to "moderate" alcohol, it may have slowed my relapse, but it never fully stopped it.

I think this is partially because marijuana never replaced alcohol in the way I always wanted it to. I could only handle it in super diluted doses because I actually hate the high itself -- but in smaller amounts cut with CBD... it helped.

I've heard a lot of people say marijuana addiction isn't real. I actually know that not to be the case -- even though I've never experienced it.

I’ve seen what marijuana addiction looks like through my sister -- we live far apart but we are close and Facetime regularly. She was a daily, very heavy smoker for years (almost a decade) and now has been sober for 2 months. I don’t think it would help her if I were parading about bragging about how easily I can "handle" the drug in lower doses medically or recreationally and then put it away for weeks on end.

In rare cases some people (like my sister) develop a vomiting syndrome from chronic usage called Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome.

I know she can still have a glass of wine from time to time without binge drinking -- just like a small vape before a social event or for relief during a Crohn's flare doesn't affect me in an addictive way.

But would it help alcoholics here if folks from the marijuana forum started bragging about how little they can drink and be fine? Probably not.

My take is that this is a recovery forum. People are looking for sobriety from all range of additions. Marijuana is included in that -- and I've learned through her and others here that as a psychological and process addiction it can be very very real.

But is there a place for marijuana -- in any amounts -- in a sober person's life -- if the relationship isn't a destructive one? (and please don't let this devolve into a semantic argument over what constitutes "sobriety"). I'm actually asking people here, because it's something I've wrestled with. I'm not looking for a fight or trying to project an opinion on folks.

Personally and from experience, I do think there can be medical uses (more research needed) and legalization for many reasons is a positive societal change. But I say this mostly from a criminal justice reform and personal liberty perspective... but that doesn't mean it won't be harmful and psychologically addictive for some people, the same way that alcohol is for 10 percent of drinkers.

And we're only beginning to see how marijuana affects a developing mind, age 25 and below.

In short, I've had to do a lot of soul searching in sobriety from alcohol about how any food, substance or behavior that doesn't guide me toward health and well-being and productivity can or should fit into my life.

I'm learning more every single day from all of you. I'm very interested in your thoughts.

Thanks, everyone.

August252015

But is there a place for marijuana -- in any amounts -- in a sober person's life -- if the relationship isn't a destructive one?

No.

PeacefulWater12

I don't understand this at all. Why is replacing one addictive substance with another a good idea?

I have several addictions which I have gradually tackled. I wanted them gone not replaced by another mood altering substance or behaviour.

It also sounds like heck of a lot of work surely the freedom of abstinence would bring a better life.

Just my thoughts

Evoo

These thoughts are helpful. I've abstained from everything the last month.

So I think I agree, but it's clearly something I've been wrestling with when it comes to long-term goals... or if I have another Crohn's flare (god forbid).

I know I can never have alcohol again.

So I actually appreciate even the short or blunt replies.

PeacefulWater12

You are welcome, I always find it helpful to run things passed other people. Get an independent view from people not emotionally involved.

Sorry to hear of your Crohns. So very painful.

I can never have alcohol again either, at first I viewed this as deprivation however, over time I began to view it as freedom. Which is indeed what it is.

I see you enjoy fitness, me too. That was a big help in filling in the time that I used to drink in. Congrats on the birth of your child.

NYCDoglvr

There's a sign at one of my meetings: "you can't be high and sober at the same time." Thinking you can substitute grass with booze is a delusion.

ScottFromWI

I am firmly in the camp that replacing alcohol with any other substance is simply shifting the addiction from one place to another.

With all of the legalization of pot and other cannabis related products in the US these days I think it becomes more tempting to try and justify smoking pot as an 'alternative". But last time I checked alcohol is legal too and that doesn't make it a good idea for me to drink it.

To me, addiction is all about avoiding facing up to things that are uncomfortable or making them go away with a substance. And it doesn't really matter if it's booze, pot, heroin or mushrooms - it's an avoidance maneuver. And eventually the avoidance leads to more problems.

And on an official note, it's worth reminding everyone that the promotion of ANY drug in our forums is against policy. Not suggesting that has happened in this thread - just a friendly reminder.

Dee74

my relationship with pot wasn't destructive - until it was.
my relationship with alcohol wasn't destructive - until it was.

If I look at the past now I see I was the problem.
I wanted escape.

My inner addict once had me smoking banana skins in a vain attempt to get me high, and justifying it because bananas are legal

I'd miss the point I was trying to get high.

Marijuana may indeed have medical applications - but so does Oxycontin and Fentanyl...

I know me - I won't be going down that road.

D

entropy1964

Well here's my experience. What you should do is up to you. I do feel pretty strongly that alcoholics probably shouldn't drink But can they smoke week? Dunno. I know quite a few people in AA that still smoke pot. That's been in a few different states over many years. I also know lots of peeps in AA that take benzos and lots of other drugs to handle anxiety so who knows.

I don't like being high. Bummer for me I guess (or really good, depending on how one looks at it). Odd too cause I sure like (or liked) being drunk....but that's the rub. When I'm totally drunk I don't really 'know' how drunk I am. When I'm high...I know it...every moment of it. Pot and booze are completely different. And if one is looking for pot to replace booze, that won't happen. And the danger is, one will probably ending up back with booze cause the core issue of why the drug needs to be present in the first place is being dodged.

As I understand it pot, when used medically and prescribed by a dr is meant to be 'microdosed'. So in the same way one might take .5 mg of xanax, one takes a very small amount of pot. Its managed by a professional. Is that ok? I kinda say, yeah. But like benzos, many people simple don't stick to proper dosing. And both drugs have huge tolerance potential....a huge red flag for developing addiction.

I am a huge fan of CBD oil. It is by far the best treatment, besides lifestyle, for my anxiety. There is no THC and its made from industrial hemp. But there are like 9 million brands and it really makes a huge difference which one is used. When they are a quality brand, they are a game changer. For migraines as well. There is no psychoactive affect and no addiction potential. Its just a straight up supplement. I am not in a state that has medical marijuana so I have to kind of wing it. I wish I had more medical guidance.

Weed to me is just another drug. Its a depressing bummer and just makes me hungry. CBD is awesome and I hope it becomes cheaper and better monitored for quality.

I need a new word for HUGE>

August252015

I should elaborate on my response just with one example - I was so short winded early because I too have lots of thoughts on this matter (all aspects, and especially those affecting the 95K+ under 18/19 student population in the public school system my husband runs- learned a lot about this whole cluster of issues and those young folks).

I have a good friend in AA - who was my sponsor for over 2 of my just past 3 yrs, up til the last 6 wks officially....but she had been having a lot of her own issues for a good while before that and the relationship morphed into one of me being very distressed over HER significant changes in her program and balance, etc....among the things I knew were going on with her, I learned something I didn't know - she had begun using CBD (I believe vaping, but I am not sure) to help with her Tourette's, under a dr care. This was the first I heard of THIS course of treatment for it, andddd in some pretty short amount of time (2ish mo I believe, max) it morphed into smoking the real stuff. I don't know the dose, etc...

Do I think she is sober? Not my place to judge bc she gets to decide what sobriety means to her - do I think she is "ok"? No. Nothing about her behavior is emotionally sober, the kind of program she helped me learn, the kind of recovery she had lived for 7 yrs. I've also seen her at a meeting seeming stoned and at least 5 of us went to chat with her out of worry... she had a lot to say about how she was that day that was not about anything chemical but I know my radar is highly tuned. I had to separate myself from her as my "official" sponsor in large part because of this seeming pot connection to her difficulties and very changed behavior.

To me, that's a great example of the slippery slope that I could see my alcoholic mind going down.

Side note: full disclosure, I'd have another conversation about prescription drugs including benzos, as I take a med regimen that does include carefully controlled Ativan. My dr, husband and I have an established pattern of use and my accountability, all at my request and discussion first w my dr. I have not taken pain meds beyond one 10 day course of tylenol 3 when I badly injured my back a year ago; all my drs got in the loop about this and that's just what I have dealt with since. I know I have to be very careful w those potential slippery slopes.

fini

But is there a place for marijuana -- in any amounts -- in a sober person's life -- if the relationship isn't a destructive one? (and please don't let this devolve into a semantic argument over what constitutes "sobriety").

ah, but just what constitutes sobriety is exactly what your question is about for me, and nothing to do with semantics but everything to do with lived and experienced sobriety.
how sober would i be if i used a mind-altering drug?

it would defeat the purpose of me being sober.

August252015

I do think intent is important, in terms of using any substances....even ice cream, for which I did a step one last summer when I felt my anxiety over having enough in the freezer much like I did with vodka back in the day

This was during a period of fragile emotional sobriety following that back injury...

Arpeggioh

How about "soberish?"

I don't drink anymore. I use the phrase "I quit drinking two years ago" and prefer not to proclaim nor dwell on being in a state of total sobriety. I prefer to think of mood alteration vs mind alteration, and I engage in that using many different things: cigarettes; cookies; porn; some use exercise (bless their hearts), meditation, religion, to improve their mood. Obviously "their" way is much healthier than mine!

So I just won't claim to be sober. I don't drink anymore. I don't ever need to drink again. And I'm good with that.

I'm grateful for this topic; I've been needing to define my current state, if not publicly like this, then at least firmly in my own head. Thanks Evoo...

zjw

to apreggioh's point yeah caffiene and sugar are both mind altering. and many are horribly addicted to both. And both can really ruin peoples lives and cause hardship on those around them Look at the show my 600lb life for examples of how bad things can get.

It could be argued i'm addicted to excercise and eating healthy and I'll own it I probably am. And heck both of those are mind altering as well. As i feel a lot better.

I just think with anything wether it be ice cream coffee booze weed whatever it is if its gonna be a problem for you then your really skating on slippery slope.

tomsteve

reads like youre lookin for someone to help justify what ya truly dont believe to be a good decision.

JeffreyAK

I'm not really in a position to pass judgement on someone who stops drinking but continues to use other drugs, but for me it defeats the whole point of sobriety - to live life on it's own terms, without destructive crutches that cause harm to me and people around me, and to embrace reality and emotions good and bad. Weed was actually my first drug of choice, starting when I was 15, and it's a dangerous lie that it's a harmless drug, because it's not. It may cause less harm than other drugs like alcohol or heroin, but it still causes harm.

melski

This is a very interesting topic for sure.
I believe that cannabis has great promise as a healing/treatment modality for some diseases and pain and know it has helped many in this way.

I live in a state where all forms, weed, capsules and tinctures of dizzying variety are legal and can be delivered to your door in minutes which is appealing and dangerous for people like me with addictions.
There is a huge responsibility implicit with legalization for sure.
I personally attempted to use these products to help with depression and anxiety and as a way to stop drinking alcohol.
Like Dee said, it worked until it didn’t and I found my mental state spinning downhill at an alarming rate.
My depression and anxiety increased and I felt hopeless and suicidal.
Have been off all substances for almost two weeks and the withdrawals from a small amount of daily cannabis were scary and a little shocking.
It opened my eyes to the strength of these products and how we need to treat
them like the powerful medicine they are.
I hope that further research and refinement can take place but for me, the underlying issues that drive me to drink are not getting fixed with cannabis or alcohol.
This was a hard realization for sure.
Every one and every one’s body is different and I think that figuring out what is helpful to promote well being is the hardest part for each of us as individuals.
Thank you to SR and all the people here.
You have all helped me more than you can imagine.

DriGuy

While in AA years ago, this topic rarely came up. I have formed my own plan entirely independently of anything I've read or heard: I don't do drugs.

In my mind, there is a gulf between a marijuana high and and alcohol high, although I can see some rather superficial similarities. For me, giving up alcohol was much about learning to live without the high, maybe more so than without the alcohol (I'm not sure this makes logical sense). Taking on another unnecessary mind altering substance is not in my plan.

Learning to live without the high (a major component of sobriety) to me means dealing with reality 24/7. But marijuana, a completely different substance, with different mental effects, shares that similarity with alcohol... in my mind. I don't care if pot is good for me or bad for me. I don't want to fall off the reality wagon anymore. It's an ugly part of my past.

DriGuy

The time marijuana use did come up in my AA group, I was a disinterested outsider observing a group scandal. In my group, there were ideological differences in opinion about the use of the two drugs, just as there apparently are here.

It turns out that it was discovered that two guys in the group were secretly smoking pot together. This started a grapevine of gossip that went through the group. And the two pot users were offended that people were passing judgement on them. They left the group as a protest for a couple of weeks, and then returned, but no one brought up their drug use again.

One old timer explained their absence to me by informing me of the gossip surrounding the scandal. As he put it, these two fellows were "supplementing their sobriety through marijuana maintenance, and some members disagreed with this behavior." Personally, I neither commended it or condemned it. It seemed vaguely irrelevant to me at the time and unworthy of scandal. And I thought everyone overreacted, including the two pot smokers for their symbolic protest.

Evoo

I was actually hesitant to bring this up, at first -- but this forum has been so helpful in my decision to quit drinking permanently. I've come to respect the folks here so much that I wanted to engage on this since it had been on my mind.

And as you all know, early recovery can be a vulnerable state with a lot of processing, over-processing, and sometimes my AV still takes me for a loop.

I've been reading all of these posts and have been processing some of this with my wife. She helped a lot -- she told me that while she's seen me struggle with alcohol and torture myself over "moderation," she's only seen me really use marijuana in rare circumstances or when I'm really suffering from bad UC symptoms. (I have a medical card for that reason -- something I worked through with my doctor since there's a lot of other things I'm not allowed to take).

But even then, she's never seen me "high." Because I don't use it to get high. I don't use it escape from responsibilities. I don't even really use it recreationally any more. I have responsibilities. Years ago I tried using it in moderation management for alcohol, but as I said in my original post -- it didn't work. I always went back to drinking.

Because I'm an alcoholic. I've never been addicted to anything else.

I think some people's stories about the root problem not being alcohol makes a lot of sense. But that doesn't really apply to me. I wish there was something else I could "blame" for my alcoholism -- a bad breakup, grief, some justifiable issue that drove me to the bottle. It would be a lie -- it's none of that, my relationship with alcohol alone was always the problem. Without alcohol in my life, things fall back into place. When it's reintroduced, the entire equilibrium shatters.

I'm going to focus in on recovery and not let myself get overwhelmed in semantics and meanings. I'm certainly going to be careful. I'm going to focus on what I can do right now, and that's not drink ever alcohol again.

And for now, I'm abstaining from everything (except caffeine...).

Onward to health.

Thanks, everyone.