Alcoholic or problem drinker?
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
so.....i suggest checking out the discussions in the friends and families forum sections farther down the forums list.
rather than speculating what he may or may not be capable of doing, or what his chances are, how about some conversations with others about how to look after yourself in this situation with regards to your worries and obvious caring about him?
rather than speculating what he may or may not be capable of doing, or what his chances are, how about some conversations with others about how to look after yourself in this situation with regards to your worries and obvious caring about him?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,617
Yes, the question was how long do you think it will take for him to go back to hospital? Weird as this sounds, maybe sooner than later is better, as is his only wake up call and he will loose less.
But I don’t know, the fact that now he manages to keep his falls happening more seldom, isn’t it a good indicator?
The 3 c's - which you may have seen before. You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it.
You might find the Friends and Family forum helpful. There are stickies at the top of the forum with tons of posts and of course the main forum:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ly-alcoholics/
There was a really good post over there this morning that you might find interesting:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...30-bridge.html (The Bridge)
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
I'm an "AA guy" and the AA program makes a very definite and important (important to me...and important to AA) distinction between an alcoholic and a "problem drinker" (though they use the term "hard drinker"). The difference revolves around power, choice and/or control and doesn't have much of anything to do with the amount consumed nor the drama/problems that occur in the life of the person in question. Using their definition, there will be hard drinkers who have worse consequences and who drink more than an alcoholic.
The difference, as I mentioned above, revolves around the ability to stop, stay stopped, and assume a lifestyle that's enjoyable. With this difference, the solutions for each person, hard drinker vs. alcoholic, are also different.
Now I'm not saying this IS THE WAY IT IS, but I'm just explaining that there could be a difference, that the solutions may be different depending upon which group one falls into and that maybe there should be a distinction made even though it may make some ppl feel uncomfortable that they maybe don't qualify as an alcoholic using AA's definition (lol, it's always been funny to my how upset some ppl get when they hear, as I'm working with them, that based upon what they're telling me they are not alcoholic but a hard drinker)
The hard drinker, or heavy drinker, will look like a real deal alkie to just about everyone, maybe even the person we're talking about. The key is this - given enough motivation, fear, worry of death, loss of freedom or what have you, they're able to stop their drinking and from there, they're able to establish a manner of living that they enjoy. They may need rehab, they may even go to some meetings for "support." They may take up yoga or hit the gym......or do any number of things to straighten their lives out but the bottom line is THEY ARE ABLE TO DO IT even though it may take some work and may not all be super-enjoyable. With the right help, support and motivation, this person can get well.
By contrast, the alcoholic referred to in AA, the one the AA program is designed to help, doesn't posses these same abilities. They want to get well, they'll do the same things described above but eventually, because they lack the power to see it through, they will drink again. Or, possibly worse than drinking again, they remain dry but suffer under the internal condition that AA also refers to as a spiritual malady - a condition that isn't treated by "not drinking." This person requires something more, something bigger than them, some additional source of power. When it gets right down to it, they need to not only change their actions but they also need an entire and complete internal change - one in which they experience personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism. AA uses the term "spiritual awakening" to signify it. The idea came from psychologist William James via a book he'd written which Bill W. was studying during his last stay in detox (Varieties of Religious Experience). As such, AA's solution revolves around spirituality and conscious contact with each individuals personal conception of God. As it's written in the Big Book,
"What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves. Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousnes."
Now whether the OP, anyone here or even I choose to accept or believe in the spirituality stuff doesn't really matter. Whether ppl in the first group want to call themselves alcoholics to me doesn't really matter. What matters is the person with the problem needs to know and I need to know - assuming I'm the person working with the person trying to recover - because the solutions are VERY different and what works for one group absolutely, by definition, won't work for the other.
The difference, as I mentioned above, revolves around the ability to stop, stay stopped, and assume a lifestyle that's enjoyable. With this difference, the solutions for each person, hard drinker vs. alcoholic, are also different.
Now I'm not saying this IS THE WAY IT IS, but I'm just explaining that there could be a difference, that the solutions may be different depending upon which group one falls into and that maybe there should be a distinction made even though it may make some ppl feel uncomfortable that they maybe don't qualify as an alcoholic using AA's definition (lol, it's always been funny to my how upset some ppl get when they hear, as I'm working with them, that based upon what they're telling me they are not alcoholic but a hard drinker)
The hard drinker, or heavy drinker, will look like a real deal alkie to just about everyone, maybe even the person we're talking about. The key is this - given enough motivation, fear, worry of death, loss of freedom or what have you, they're able to stop their drinking and from there, they're able to establish a manner of living that they enjoy. They may need rehab, they may even go to some meetings for "support." They may take up yoga or hit the gym......or do any number of things to straighten their lives out but the bottom line is THEY ARE ABLE TO DO IT even though it may take some work and may not all be super-enjoyable. With the right help, support and motivation, this person can get well.
By contrast, the alcoholic referred to in AA, the one the AA program is designed to help, doesn't posses these same abilities. They want to get well, they'll do the same things described above but eventually, because they lack the power to see it through, they will drink again. Or, possibly worse than drinking again, they remain dry but suffer under the internal condition that AA also refers to as a spiritual malady - a condition that isn't treated by "not drinking." This person requires something more, something bigger than them, some additional source of power. When it gets right down to it, they need to not only change their actions but they also need an entire and complete internal change - one in which they experience personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism. AA uses the term "spiritual awakening" to signify it. The idea came from psychologist William James via a book he'd written which Bill W. was studying during his last stay in detox (Varieties of Religious Experience). As such, AA's solution revolves around spirituality and conscious contact with each individuals personal conception of God. As it's written in the Big Book,
"What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves. Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousnes."
Now whether the OP, anyone here or even I choose to accept or believe in the spirituality stuff doesn't really matter. Whether ppl in the first group want to call themselves alcoholics to me doesn't really matter. What matters is the person with the problem needs to know and I need to know - assuming I'm the person working with the person trying to recover - because the solutions are VERY different and what works for one group absolutely, by definition, won't work for the other.
No Dogma Please
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,562
Personally I don't buy the distinction and find it meaningless.
In any event, if there are no negative consequences to drinking, than it's not a problem. Keep drinking.
If there are consequences and problems, you are a problem drinker, by definition.
I guess there's a subtle difference that once the consequences are seen and someone can easily walk away, then they are a "problem drinker" and not an "alcoholic."
In reality, a large part of the problem is that people often don't recognized negative consequences until they bite them in the ass. Hard.
I think it's extremely common in those who really shouldn't drink to have consequences, and either ignore them, refuse to recognize them, or be unable to moderate or stop in spite of the consequences.
In any event, if there are no negative consequences to drinking, than it's not a problem. Keep drinking.
If there are consequences and problems, you are a problem drinker, by definition.
I guess there's a subtle difference that once the consequences are seen and someone can easily walk away, then they are a "problem drinker" and not an "alcoholic."
In reality, a large part of the problem is that people often don't recognized negative consequences until they bite them in the ass. Hard.
I think it's extremely common in those who really shouldn't drink to have consequences, and either ignore them, refuse to recognize them, or be unable to moderate or stop in spite of the consequences.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 334
Originally Posted by FutureYesterday 
Thank you for the replies! I would like to quote, but I’m not very good at this on my phone.
So, I agree with everything you say and to answer the user who was asking why do I need some strangers’ opinions, well...I suppose that discussing possible outcomes makes me a bit calmer. Not that I wouldn’t know. I think I just needed some personal stories.
The lname” I give to the problem
has to do more exactly with the outcomes and the capacity to drink moderately. Because that’s the question after all, and if you read about it , things tend to go into the extremes: some people claim full abstinence is the only way to go, others that moderation is doable.
Probably, I need your thoughts on this to prepare. His admissions were in a psychiatric hospital simply because he couldn’t stop drinking. He would stay intoxicated for up to 2 weeks, until someone managed to get him to the hospital to wake up. He now look at that like a far away “stage”
in his life saying that he now has no urge to drink, he doesn’t even need to finish the glass, he doesn’t think about it and he’ll stay away from strong alcohol as he knows he can’t handle it. That’s the typical alcoholic speech, right? But I don’t understand how a guy who would black-out in a few hours less than 10 months ago and inly stop in hospital, is able to stop now after one drink. I know for sure he’s telling the truth and he goes to work and has a life. Actually, he’s the one asking: am I an alcoholic after all? Don’t they say I should have a physical dependence, that my brain is wired differently. How come the urge is gone now?
Of course I asked why does he need even that one beer. Answer: “one to sleep better, never 2 because I’m jittery the next day.”
As you all said, that’s a person about wich I care a lot, I helped him in this recovery journey, but, from various reasons, I decided to basically step away. But I’m alone with
all this questions, and I’m just wondering: is it possible ?
How long will it take for him to go back?
So, I agree with everything you say and to answer the user who was asking why do I need some strangers’ opinions, well...I suppose that discussing possible outcomes makes me a bit calmer. Not that I wouldn’t know. I think I just needed some personal stories.
The lname” I give to the problem
has to do more exactly with the outcomes and the capacity to drink moderately. Because that’s the question after all, and if you read about it , things tend to go into the extremes: some people claim full abstinence is the only way to go, others that moderation is doable.
Probably, I need your thoughts on this to prepare. His admissions were in a psychiatric hospital simply because he couldn’t stop drinking. He would stay intoxicated for up to 2 weeks, until someone managed to get him to the hospital to wake up. He now look at that like a far away “stage”
in his life saying that he now has no urge to drink, he doesn’t even need to finish the glass, he doesn’t think about it and he’ll stay away from strong alcohol as he knows he can’t handle it. That’s the typical alcoholic speech, right? But I don’t understand how a guy who would black-out in a few hours less than 10 months ago and inly stop in hospital, is able to stop now after one drink. I know for sure he’s telling the truth and he goes to work and has a life. Actually, he’s the one asking: am I an alcoholic after all? Don’t they say I should have a physical dependence, that my brain is wired differently. How come the urge is gone now?
Of course I asked why does he need even that one beer. Answer: “one to sleep better, never 2 because I’m jittery the next day.”
As you all said, that’s a person about wich I care a lot, I helped him in this recovery journey, but, from various reasons, I decided to basically step away. But I’m alone with
all this questions, and I’m just wondering: is it possible ?
How long will it take for him to go back?
The problem comes, once the horse is out of the stable, there's no way to get it back. Once he crosses the line and he's drunk- even once- he can do irreversible damage to his body or his life. Why chance it for that one beer? Take an OTC sleep aid or do an extra workout. But, the solution HAS to be alcohol- even with the risks involved. That is alcoholic thinking.
Personally, I'd steer clear. It's going to get ugly sooner or later, and codependency is a rough life.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 9
Daytrader....you are basically saying that the diff between an alcoholic and a hard drinker is that the former can never recover without smthe spiritual facet involved?
ok, an in your theory, wich one is him?
he rationalizing everything now: that he has a better relationship with wife and kids after divorce, that he had no future in that company, that it’s a life experience from wich he learnt a lot etc. He only seemed to have a sort on awakening moment after rehab. But drifted back to all the beliefs that brought then there.
and, i just realised that maybe i did the wrong thing stepping away because he’ ll actually be better and I left for no reason as he said.
ok, an in your theory, wich one is him?
he rationalizing everything now: that he has a better relationship with wife and kids after divorce, that he had no future in that company, that it’s a life experience from wich he learnt a lot etc. He only seemed to have a sort on awakening moment after rehab. But drifted back to all the beliefs that brought then there.
and, i just realised that maybe i did the wrong thing stepping away because he’ ll actually be better and I left for no reason as he said.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 1,737
I suppose all alcoholics could have been characterized as "problem drinkers" at some point in their drinking history. Personally, I never went to the hospital, and never lost a job, but I am certain that I am an alcoholic. The fact that I haven't had a drink since Dec 2009 doesn't change that.
As to predicting a drinkers future consequences... that's a fools errand in my opinion. That sets the stage for "passively managing" an alcoholic's consequences... waiting in the wings to rescue the drinker when the inevitable occurs. I say inevitable because in my experience anybody who goes to the hospital 15 times from alcohol and continues to drink will either return to the hospital, quit drinking, or die. More to the point, if 15 trips to the ER isn't enough evidence for him, there's nothing you or anyone else can do or say to convince this man that he cannot drink normally.
One very hard lesson I have learned in recovery is that when I care more about someone else's sobriety than they do, I am of no use to them and I am choosing to make myself an emotional slave to their choices. In other words, it's a lose - lose proposition.
As to predicting a drinkers future consequences... that's a fools errand in my opinion. That sets the stage for "passively managing" an alcoholic's consequences... waiting in the wings to rescue the drinker when the inevitable occurs. I say inevitable because in my experience anybody who goes to the hospital 15 times from alcohol and continues to drink will either return to the hospital, quit drinking, or die. More to the point, if 15 trips to the ER isn't enough evidence for him, there's nothing you or anyone else can do or say to convince this man that he cannot drink normally.
One very hard lesson I have learned in recovery is that when I care more about someone else's sobriety than they do, I am of no use to them and I am choosing to make myself an emotional slave to their choices. In other words, it's a lose - lose proposition.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 1,068
Originally Posted by Eddiebuckle
One very hard lesson I have learned in recovery is that when I care more about someone else's sobriety than they do, I am of no use to them and I am choosing to make myself an emotional slave to their choices. In other words, it's a lose - lose proposition.
Eddie nailed it!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lancs, UK
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by Ihadmyfill
A cucumber can become a pickle, but once it's a pickle it can not go back to being a cucumber!
To the OP. The person you speak about has a VERY serious problem. What you (I mean people in general not you personally) decide to call it is irrelevant.
My first therapist said to me 'If your drinking is causing you problems you have a drink problem'. Pretty simple really - call it what you will it amounts to the same thing.
And as for the question can anyone who has drank like this previously find moderation - in my opinion (and my first therapists opinion) no. Moderation is the holy grail of every alcoholic / alcohol abuser / problem drinker that ever drew breath. The fact that moderation is a goal shows that there is an issue - it should be a given.
Also (and this is what I will be telling myself from hence forth until I draw my last breath) is moderation really what I want? It isn't I want oblivion. And even if it was it is worth the risk? Obviously not. And given that I have sought out the holy grail of moderation for over 25 years with ZERO success (and increasingly serious consequences) what are the chances of this time being different? None.
I am therefore simply a pickle.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by FutureYesterday
Daytrader....you are basically saying that the diff between an alcoholic and a hard drinker is that the former can never recover without smthe spiritual facet involved?
ok, an in your theory, wich one is him?
he rationalizing everything now: that he has a better relationship with wife and kids after divorce, that he had no future in that company, that it’s a life experience from wich he learnt a lot etc. He only seemed to have a sort on awakening moment after rehab. But drifted back to all the beliefs that brought then there.
and, i just realised that maybe i did the wrong thing stepping away because he’ ll actually be better and I left for no reason as he said.
ok, an in your theory, wich one is him?
he rationalizing everything now: that he has a better relationship with wife and kids after divorce, that he had no future in that company, that it’s a life experience from wich he learnt a lot etc. He only seemed to have a sort on awakening moment after rehab. But drifted back to all the beliefs that brought then there.
and, i just realised that maybe i did the wrong thing stepping away because he’ ll actually be better and I left for no reason as he said.
Originally Posted by DayTrader
Now whether the OP, anyone here or even I choose to accept or believe in the spirituality stuff doesn't really matter. Whether ppl in the first group want to call themselves alcoholics to me doesn't really matter. What matters is the person with the problem needs to know and I need to know - assuming I'm the person working with the person trying to recover - because the solutions are VERY different and what works for one group absolutely, by definition, won't work for the other.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Tn
Posts: 3,043
If this guy got sober today and never had another drink, his bottom would still be much lower than my bottom.
And my bottom certainly didn't seem like a "high bottom" from my perspective.
This guy is an alcoholic, plain and simple.
He is also a dead man walking if he doesn't get help for his alcoholism real soon.
I hope you can help him out by your own example.
He is seriously ill.
And my bottom certainly didn't seem like a "high bottom" from my perspective.
This guy is an alcoholic, plain and simple.
He is also a dead man walking if he doesn't get help for his alcoholism real soon.
I hope you can help him out by your own example.
He is seriously ill.
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Originally Posted by FutureYesterday
And he’s drinking and drinking...as we speak. God or that Higher Power know what we’ll come, but this is very sad.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Tn
Posts: 3,043
I run into my old best friend and drinking buddy from time to time.
We catch up for lunch once or twice a year and he comes to our annual football party.
I remember telling him, right before I sought professional help for my drinking problem, that we were both alcoholics and that I was going to get help.
He told me he wasn't ready to get help.
That was 30 years ago.
He looks much, much older than I do and life has been tough (understandably, since he gets drunk every night).
He's a great guy I would love to help.
I have been saving a seat for him in meetings for a long time.
Maybe he'll "get it" before it's too late.
We catch up for lunch once or twice a year and he comes to our annual football party.
I remember telling him, right before I sought professional help for my drinking problem, that we were both alcoholics and that I was going to get help.
He told me he wasn't ready to get help.
That was 30 years ago.
He looks much, much older than I do and life has been tough (understandably, since he gets drunk every night).
He's a great guy I would love to help.
I have been saving a seat for him in meetings for a long time.
Maybe he'll "get it" before it's too late.
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Originally Posted by FutureYesterday
Help for myself, I don’t know...i haven’t seen him in months, don’t talk much, but getting help means not caring anymore?
As someone else suggested, you may want to check out our Friends and Family forum where you'll meet those who are in a similar situation or have been in the past.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted by FutureYesterday
Help for myself, I don’t know...i haven’t seen him in months, don’t talk much, but getting help means not caring anymore?
On some level I always saw her drinking as a choice, in truth it was an act of despair that only she could address. Unfortunately, she never was able to stay sober for more than a few weeks, and died an active alcoholic in 1999. She was a fabulous mother when she was sober, and in many ways she was a guide for me in early sobriety (in the sense of "don't do what Mom did").
This disease is vicious, relentless, and baffling. You clearly care about this person; you may find benefit from AlAnon or the Friends and Family forum here on SR.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
