Ways to improve the 12-step system
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
I find it interesting when someone comments that recovery program X or Y is arrogant because they continue to do precisely what they said they were going to do...... then go on to suggest that said program would be improved if only they changed in the way the person calling them arrogant says they should.
I find it interesting because I used to have the same thoughts and opinions.
With hindsight being 20/20 for the most part, I'm really grateful that what worked for around 90 years was still available to me once I realized that's what I needed.
I find it interesting because I used to have the same thoughts and opinions.
With hindsight being 20/20 for the most part, I'm really grateful that what worked for around 90 years was still available to me once I realized that's what I needed.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 3,748
I think the 'normie'/ 'alcoholic' dichotomy in the Big Book is confusing.
So called normal drinkers who may 'die a few years earlier" are not immune from alcoholism. I don't think there is any medical evidence to suggest such and to think such creates a false and flawed sense of security.
So called normal drinkers who may 'die a few years earlier" are not immune from alcoholism. I don't think there is any medical evidence to suggest such and to think such creates a false and flawed sense of security.
Redmayne
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
A support organisation..
For me I share the view expressed by the late Charlie Parley and Joe McQuany in their 'Joe and Charlie's: Big Book Study Meeting' that the Fellowship of AA exists simply as a support organisation for problem drinkers and that the 12 Step program exists simply as a basic structure or template that is flexible enough to assist anyone, depending on their personal circumstances, to recover from alcoholism or addiction to alcohol.
Based on my own definition of learning,which is that 'learning is the induction of knowledge within the parameters of human behaviour' ....
Based on my own definition of learning,which is that 'learning is the induction of knowledge within the parameters of human behaviour' ....
Member
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by DriGuy 
But I didn't think there was a way to stop. I thought the answer was to buck up and bear my cross, just like everyone else who successfully battles life. But I eventually heeded the words of others, who at the time I thought were just speaking like hypocrites. What I found was that I could actually drop resentments. I can't tell you what a surprise this was. Now I did have to pick up a few tricks of my own to make this happen, but I actually got pretty good at it. This was a huge step forward for me.
There's always something new to learn, and it can come from some of the most surprising circles.
There's always something new to learn, and it can come from some of the most surprising circles.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,163
Originally Posted by Briansy
I enjoyed your post and would love to hear you talk more about the methods used to get rid of the resentments.
My first try involved forcing the resentment out of my head, as others instructed. Yeah, it works, kind of, but it's a bear of a job. I could force it out for a few seconds, but it would come right back, yeah the periods of absence got longer, but it's as much work or more than just spending your energy resenting.
If I instruct you to spend 5 minutes forcing yourself to not think about fish, you know your going to spend at least part of the time picturing a fish. You would have been better off if I had never planted the idea there in the first place.
Forcing resentments out of your head takes a lot of energy, because the process of forcing something out automatically brings you in contact with the thing you are forcing. I suppose if you're a Zen master, you can blank your mind on a regular basis, but I'm not very good at that. My god! You're trying to get rid of the thing. The last thing you want is to think about it, and thinking about not thinking about it is too much like thinking about it. It's a start, however.
Then I heard about the trick of wishing the person well, just doing it in your own head. This works if you're reasonably sincere about it, but how do you do that if you are convinced the person is a jerk? Think of it first as mental role play. It's just play, nothing serious at first, just play with being sincere about it, keeping in mind that you have nothing to lose. You can always have your resentment back if you really want it. You've had that technique mastered for years, so it's not like you're going to lose a valuable thing.
Well wishing worked better than forcing out, and from there it was a natural and easy step to actually engaging the person in real time being nice. That was like the quantum leap for me. You can combine these methods too.
Keep in mind that a person who is inherently untenable, manipulative, bitter, and mean can be avoided. It's not like you have to end up loving everyone like some manic Pollyanna. Maybe that should be a goal, but it sounds unnecessary and over the top to me.
I confess, I quite often "run away" from untenable people, well at least back away if I've got no place to run to, and I feel no regret in doing so.
Try these out. Play with them. Tweak them to your liking. If this leads to anything new, better, or different, I'd like to hear about it, so I can try them out too.
Last edited by DriGuy; 11-30-2018 at 03:19 AM. Reason: Left out a key word that changed the meaning
Member
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by DriGuy
This is only my personal experience with dealing with resentments. Others may or may not find it useful. I think it's like learning how to ski. People can tell you what to do, but you don't really learn it until you do it. When you make the first perfect turn, you learn how it feels to do a perfect turn, and you repeat that feeling over and over, rather than running the instructions through your head for every turn.
My first try involved forcing the resentment out of my head, as others instructed. Yeah, it works, kind of, but it's a bear of a job. I could force it out for a few seconds, but it would come right back, yeah the periods of absence got longer, but it's as much work or more than just spending your energy resenting.
If I instruct you to spend 5 minutes forcing yourself to not think about fish, you know your going to spend at least part of the time picturing a fish. You would have been better off if I had never planted the idea there in the first place.
Forcing resentments out of your head takes a lot of energy, because the process of forcing something out automatically brings you in contact with the thing you are forcing. I suppose if you're a Zen master, you can blank your mind on a regular basis, but I'm not very good at that. My god! You're trying to get rid of the thing. The last thing you want is to think about it, and thinking about not thinking about it is too much like thinking about it. It's a start, however.
Then I heard about the trick of wishing the person well, just doing it in your own head. This works if you're reasonably sincere about it, but how do you do that if you are convinced the person is a jerk? Think of it first as mental role play. It's just play, nothing serious at first, just play with being sincere about it, keeping in mind that you have nothing to lose. You can always have your resentment back if you really want it. You've had that technique mastered for years, so it's not like you're going to lose a valuable thing.
Well wishing worked better than forcing out, and from there it was a natural and easy step to actually engaging the person in real time being nice. That was like the quantum leap for me. You can combine these methods too.
Keep in mind that a person who is inherently untenable, manipulative, bitter, and mean can be avoided. It's not like you have to end up loving everyone like some manic Pollyanna. Maybe that should be a goal, but it sounds unnecessary and over the top to me.
I confess, I quite often "run away" from untenable people, well at least back away if I've got no place to run to, and I feel no regret in doing so.
Try these out. Play with them. Tweak them to your liking. If this leads to anything new, better, or different, I'd like to hear about it, so I can try them out too.
My first try involved forcing the resentment out of my head, as others instructed. Yeah, it works, kind of, but it's a bear of a job. I could force it out for a few seconds, but it would come right back, yeah the periods of absence got longer, but it's as much work or more than just spending your energy resenting.
If I instruct you to spend 5 minutes forcing yourself to not think about fish, you know your going to spend at least part of the time picturing a fish. You would have been better off if I had never planted the idea there in the first place.
Forcing resentments out of your head takes a lot of energy, because the process of forcing something out automatically brings you in contact with the thing you are forcing. I suppose if you're a Zen master, you can blank your mind on a regular basis, but I'm not very good at that. My god! You're trying to get rid of the thing. The last thing you want is to think about it, and thinking about not thinking about it is too much like thinking about it. It's a start, however.
Then I heard about the trick of wishing the person well, just doing it in your own head. This works if you're reasonably sincere about it, but how do you do that if you are convinced the person is a jerk? Think of it first as mental role play. It's just play, nothing serious at first, just play with being sincere about it, keeping in mind that you have nothing to lose. You can always have your resentment back if you really want it. You've had that technique mastered for years, so it's not like you're going to lose a valuable thing.
Well wishing worked better than forcing out, and from there it was a natural and easy step to actually engaging the person in real time being nice. That was like the quantum leap for me. You can combine these methods too.
Keep in mind that a person who is inherently untenable, manipulative, bitter, and mean can be avoided. It's not like you have to end up loving everyone like some manic Pollyanna. Maybe that should be a goal, but it sounds unnecessary and over the top to me.
I confess, I quite often "run away" from untenable people, well at least back away if I've got no place to run to, and I feel no regret in doing so.
Try these out. Play with them. Tweak them to your liking. If this leads to anything new, better, or different, I'd like to hear about it, so I can try them out too.
non-drinker
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 13,833
IMO, there's enough division in this world already. That's why I love places like SR. So many different recovery methods practiced here, but all with the common goal of conquering addiction. Let's build each other up, not tear each other down.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,163
Originally Posted by MindfulMan
There's a lot to like about AA. Ultimately it didn't work for me for many reasons, and I used other tools. 18 months sober and not a twinge of a craving, so something's working. I agree with some of the OPs observations. I've had more than one person basically tell me that if I stopped going to AA I couldn't stay sober.
How many times have you heard a recovering alcoholic say, "I tried everything, and AA was the only thing that worked." I said that myself, but "Tried EVERYTHING?" Really? It's more like AA was the first thing that worked, and many of us stopped trying anything else, and why should we? I think what happened is we tried one thing over and over and failed. That's not equivalent of trying everything. But I wouldn't make a big deal out of this observation. If AA worked and if it's good enough, people can be happy with that.
Originally Posted by MindfulMan
I ended up doing a modified Step 4 with my therapist. It was definitely a tool in my return to a fuller life.
Originally Posted by MindfulMan
I did a number of things, the most important of which was to define myself as no longer a drinker/garbagehead druggie. I found that it was best not to stay in the addiction and not to let it define me. AVRT would call that a "Big Plan."
There's more still. Simply learning more about yourself, good, bad, and ugly leads to all kinds of understandings that go way beyond alcohol abuse, and make us more involved in the richness of life.
Originally Posted by MindfulMan
But that's just me. It works brilliantly for many. And if it doesn't...do something else. Just do SOMETHING!
Originally Posted by MindfulMan
I do agree that the word "Sober" needs to go. It sounds dour, stern and deliberate. Who wants that?
Whereas I find the state I'm in to be anything but those things...playful, joyful, unrestrained, free and mindful. It's just the state of not using addictive drugs or alcohol and the clarity and choices that come from that.
Whereas I find the state I'm in to be anything but those things...playful, joyful, unrestrained, free and mindful. It's just the state of not using addictive drugs or alcohol and the clarity and choices that come from that.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
AA is a program for those who want it, not for people who need it. If you don't like the program try one of the others around, mentioned above. It sounds like you went to a few meetings and talked to a few alcoholics who gave their opinions. You obviously didn't read the Big Book. But as someone who has been going to AA for 27 years, I'll respond to your bulleted items.
"Ditch this label 'alcoholic' (a reason people are afraid to admit they have a drinking problem is because they don't want to be seen as or accept the label 'alcoholic')." Step one, admitting we're alcoholic, is considered essential to the program. If we don't admit it there's no reason to stop. Add to that it's a medical term.
" Get rid of this arrogance that 12-step is the only way, that it's individuals; no, it wasn't the method for you (more on this below)" Nowhere in AA literature does it say AA is the only way to get sober. In the last chapter of the Big Book Wilson says other programs may be better.
[B]Show EMPTHATY; that you acknowledge that staying sober FOREVER is a scary thought, that can go a LONG WAY. AA never says you quit drinking forever. It's one day at a time, only that.
"Show ACKNOWLEDGEMENT to the original reasons why one may have started drinking in the first place. Are they still relevant? (Don't know one down, acknowledge)" It's irrelevant why we're alcoholics, only that we are. We can change the original "why" and we're still alcoholics.
"Do a better job of selling sobriety; stop selling it as 'being on the straight and narrow', 'forcing yourself' to avoid the one thing you want the most; tying in with the point above." AA doesn't sell sobriety; it's a program of attraction. Have you ever seen an AA ad?
"Ditch this idea that an individual is broken for life (more below)." Show me where it says that! Throughout AA literature it says people have prosperous lives after getting sober. Alcoholism is a life-long gig, you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber.
" Social isolation; if one is isolated find out the reasons why, what's stopping them; work in conjunction with people who know rather than be a jack of all trades." AA doesn't have social workers or therapists, it's just one alcoholic talking to another. The program tells you how to have a healthy life, it's up to the individual to make changes to his/her behavior if they want to stay sober.
Unless you live in a rural area, there are tons of AA meetings around. I'm an agnostic and have found plenty of others who are as well. In fact AA has published a new pamphlet: "The God Word": AA for agnostics and alcoholics".
I'm not interested in converting anyone to AA but wanted to set the record straight about what AA is and isn't.
Remember, "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."
"Ditch this label 'alcoholic' (a reason people are afraid to admit they have a drinking problem is because they don't want to be seen as or accept the label 'alcoholic')." Step one, admitting we're alcoholic, is considered essential to the program. If we don't admit it there's no reason to stop. Add to that it's a medical term.
" Get rid of this arrogance that 12-step is the only way, that it's individuals; no, it wasn't the method for you (more on this below)" Nowhere in AA literature does it say AA is the only way to get sober. In the last chapter of the Big Book Wilson says other programs may be better.
[B]Show EMPTHATY; that you acknowledge that staying sober FOREVER is a scary thought, that can go a LONG WAY. AA never says you quit drinking forever. It's one day at a time, only that.
"Show ACKNOWLEDGEMENT to the original reasons why one may have started drinking in the first place. Are they still relevant? (Don't know one down, acknowledge)" It's irrelevant why we're alcoholics, only that we are. We can change the original "why" and we're still alcoholics.
"Do a better job of selling sobriety; stop selling it as 'being on the straight and narrow', 'forcing yourself' to avoid the one thing you want the most; tying in with the point above." AA doesn't sell sobriety; it's a program of attraction. Have you ever seen an AA ad?
"Ditch this idea that an individual is broken for life (more below)." Show me where it says that! Throughout AA literature it says people have prosperous lives after getting sober. Alcoholism is a life-long gig, you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber.
" Social isolation; if one is isolated find out the reasons why, what's stopping them; work in conjunction with people who know rather than be a jack of all trades." AA doesn't have social workers or therapists, it's just one alcoholic talking to another. The program tells you how to have a healthy life, it's up to the individual to make changes to his/her behavior if they want to stay sober.
Unless you live in a rural area, there are tons of AA meetings around. I'm an agnostic and have found plenty of others who are as well. In fact AA has published a new pamphlet: "The God Word": AA for agnostics and alcoholics".
I'm not interested in converting anyone to AA but wanted to set the record straight about what AA is and isn't.
Remember, "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."
Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 334
I agree about going to different meetings. Different groups in larger areas tend to attract different types of people. This makes it easier to find like minded folks who emphasize the same parts of the program that work for you, so you can find friends and a sponsor. If you try this, and it still doesn't work, it might not be for you. Someone once came to an AA meeting I attended and was really asking about different methods. Well, it's not that we are closed minded- we just don't know about them, because we tried AA, and it worked for us, so we stuck with it! If you want to learn about other methods, AA might not be the place to look 
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by LaceyDallas
I agree about going to different meetings. Different groups in larger areas tend to attract different types of people. This makes it easier to find like minded folks who emphasize the same parts of the program that work for you, so you can find friends and a sponsor. If you try this, and it still doesn't work, it might not be for you. Someone once came to an AA meeting I attended and was really asking about different methods. Well, it's not that we are closed minded- we just don't know about them, because we tried AA, and it worked for us, so we stuck with it! If you want to learn about other methods, AA might not be the place to look
My feeling is if you don't like a particularly recover program be it AA or not fine. Try something else.
Or a different AA meeting if you don`t like the format or the way the meeting is conducted.
Whatever works just work it because you're worth it.
AA Chairperson, "We left off last week on pg. xx of Living Sober.
AA Old-timer, "Why aren`t we using the BB?
Chairperson, "Shall we vote.... again!"
Old-time, "When was the vote? There was no mention of a vote"
Chairperson, "I sick this. YOU want to chair the meeting fine. (Chairperson gets up and storms out the room.)
Old-timer says noting.
There is an embarrassed silence in the room.
Ken33 gets up for some coffee and a couple of cookies.
Another member takes charge and the meeting continues with the Living Sober book.
Member who doesn`t approve of the Living Sober book being used walks out the meeting.
Kenn33 likes both the Chairperson as well as the old-time who just left. Doesn't want to takes sides and quickly leaves after the meeting.
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Thanks for your thoughts. It is through shared experience and opinions that we may all grow and help others.
The program has achieved what it's purpose was designed for in my case and that is to evoke a spiritual awakening in the suffering alcoholic.
Simply, what has transpired in my life is engagement of the world around me.
Bill W referred to AA as spirtual kindergarten - it is not the light, but helped bring me towards the light.
When I open my mind and heart and take notice, I find people in recovery have found a spiritual path. Look no further than SR; we are people who are as different as the stars, but most are lead by some sense of this path, however one defines it.
Is Dee spiritual? No question about it. Is he an AA'er? No. Go down the list of our leadership, it's pretty easy to see the common thread. We have followed paths that are very different from each other, but in many ways we intersect;
Empathy, love, sympathy, availability, sharing of experiences..........these are but a few of the tools people fortunate enough to not just be sober, but to have discovered recovery pickup along the way.
Glad you are here with us, friend.
Keep Trudgin
The program has achieved what it's purpose was designed for in my case and that is to evoke a spiritual awakening in the suffering alcoholic.
Simply, what has transpired in my life is engagement of the world around me.
Bill W referred to AA as spirtual kindergarten - it is not the light, but helped bring me towards the light.
When I open my mind and heart and take notice, I find people in recovery have found a spiritual path. Look no further than SR; we are people who are as different as the stars, but most are lead by some sense of this path, however one defines it.
Is Dee spiritual? No question about it. Is he an AA'er? No. Go down the list of our leadership, it's pretty easy to see the common thread. We have followed paths that are very different from each other, but in many ways we intersect;
Empathy, love, sympathy, availability, sharing of experiences..........these are but a few of the tools people fortunate enough to not just be sober, but to have discovered recovery pickup along the way.
Glad you are here with us, friend.
Keep Trudgin
Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,163
Originally Posted by LaceyDallas
I agree about going to different meetings. Different groups in larger areas tend to attract different types of people. This makes it easier to find like minded folks who emphasize the same parts of the program that work for you, so you can find friends and a sponsor. If you try this, and it still doesn't work, it might not be for you. Someone once came to an AA meeting I attended and was really asking about different methods. Well, it's not that we are closed minded- we just don't know about them, because we tried AA, and it worked for us, so we stuck with it! If you want to learn about other methods, AA might not be the place to look
I was warmly welcomed by so many. It turned out that the meeting was in some way connected to a nearby halfway house, and I'm pretty sure everyone at the meeting was an ex-con. Mostly they were men, but a few women were also there. I was sitting in a sea of tattoos plastered all over some very friendly people. I was obviously the outsider, and as far as I know, the only newcomer, and of course the chair person zoomed in on me and asked me to come to the front and share my story.
I did, although I was moderately nervous in front of such a large group of strangers, but I did OK, and everyone was so nice, adding to my observations, and helping me along if I stumbled. I had a good time, but my preference was for smaller more intimate meetings. So even though I have nothing but good things to say about those people, I decided to find another meeting.
I looked at the map and meeting list, and Palos Verdes, a seaside community of various gated communities (I'm only surmising they were gated), seemed like the likely opposite of the meeting I had first gone to, but I didn't have a suit and tie, and I figured everyone there would show up in Porsches and Rolls Royces, so I picked a meeting exactly half way between San Pedro and Palos Verdes, where I did find my niche, and hung out with some great folks more in my social class.
But I never went to an AA meeting anywhere where I wasn't warmly welcomed.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Tn
Posts: 3,043
Vulcan -
Thanks for your input.
AA and its followers can all use other peoples' perspectives.
I strongly suggest that, if you haven't already done so, you get a sponsor and go through your suggestions with him.
Other AA "regulars" have responded to your assertions.
But, the point of SR is recovery - not winning a bunch of Pyrrhic victories among ourselves in debates and arguments.
Why don't you just try to work the program with a sponsor, real, real hard, and see what happens.
I always have to remind myself that I never quit going to bars even though I might run into some pretty unsavory characters in them (a label which would have included myself, of course).
Instead, I just kept coming back.
I do the same thing with meetings.
Everyone in the meetings are alcoholics.
We get a few very sick people in our meetings from time to time (e.g., chronic addicts, violent felons, people with strong Axis 2 personality disorders, etc.) - just like I used to see in the dive bars and taverns I drank in.
I don't expect perfection from AA or from its members.
The only reason I even suggest that you pursue it with an enhanced purpose and vigor is the hope that you one day find what I found in the program a long time ago.
Telling you to find another program or start your own is the easy way to respond, but I want you to get the help and the quality of life I think you want very badly.
Most people whom newcomers find to be the most dogmatic and the biggest PITA's are the very same members who want the newcomers to keep coming back for the rest of their lives.
Lastly, please remember the notion that we should look for similarities and not differences when we attend meetings.
Keep coming back, amigo.
Thanks for your input.
AA and its followers can all use other peoples' perspectives.
I strongly suggest that, if you haven't already done so, you get a sponsor and go through your suggestions with him.
Other AA "regulars" have responded to your assertions.
But, the point of SR is recovery - not winning a bunch of Pyrrhic victories among ourselves in debates and arguments.
Why don't you just try to work the program with a sponsor, real, real hard, and see what happens.
I always have to remind myself that I never quit going to bars even though I might run into some pretty unsavory characters in them (a label which would have included myself, of course).
Instead, I just kept coming back.
I do the same thing with meetings.
Everyone in the meetings are alcoholics.
We get a few very sick people in our meetings from time to time (e.g., chronic addicts, violent felons, people with strong Axis 2 personality disorders, etc.) - just like I used to see in the dive bars and taverns I drank in.
I don't expect perfection from AA or from its members.
The only reason I even suggest that you pursue it with an enhanced purpose and vigor is the hope that you one day find what I found in the program a long time ago.
Telling you to find another program or start your own is the easy way to respond, but I want you to get the help and the quality of life I think you want very badly.
Most people whom newcomers find to be the most dogmatic and the biggest PITA's are the very same members who want the newcomers to keep coming back for the rest of their lives.
Lastly, please remember the notion that we should look for similarities and not differences when we attend meetings.
Keep coming back, amigo.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by vulcan30
Hi all, I'm aware that many people out there don't stick with the 12-step methods and fall off the rails, rather than blaming the individuals, I think there are some things that need attention giving to.
Why I don't believe in the word 'alcoholic';
People get addicted and dependent on substances only through repeatedly abusing it over time. Abuse of alcohol includes binge drinking, self-medicating, drinking off a hangover and daily drinking. People only get addicted by engaging in one or more of those patterns repeatedly. If I was to put itching powder in your underwear, would it be fair for me to call you a scratchoholic? If you were to abuse a highly addictive drug over years, can you be blamed for getting addicted?
People get addicted first psychologically (they develop cravings through pavlovian conditinoing), things that have become associated with drinking over time trigger it. We also develop beliefs about drinking.
Meanwhile, the more we drink and the more regularly we drink, we build up a tolerance. We can build tolerance, drink more, build more tolerance (as depressing as this is) and the get physically-dependent; get withdrawal symptoms.
The SAME IS TRUE OF ALL DRUGS not just alcohol (the fact that alcohol is not seen as a 'drug' is a big part of this).
It's not a disease, it's a consequence of your body over-adapting psychologically and physiologically. It's not you being broken or different from 'normies'. That's a load of rubbish & ********. This idea that there's only alcoholics and normies, what a damaging way to look at it! No wonder the success rate is questionable.
There are many good parts of AA like the social support. Many of what I've cited as the negatives such as this idea you have an incurable, disease, that you are different are complete ******** & TOTALLY UNECESSARY. Being forced to identify as an 'alcoholic' is also totally unnecessary. That's a reason people might not get help in the first place.
Then, there are those people who fall off the wagon. What happens? They get abandoned!!? That's what concerns me. Major flaw of that system. A better system would help them understand the reasons why they feel off instead of ostracize and shun.
Sorry to sound so angry. Don't write off all of the bullet points & don't just home in on one and ignore everything else. Thanks.
- Ditch this label 'alcoholic' (a reason people are afraid to admit they have a drinking problem is because they don't want to be seen as or accept the label 'alcoholic')
- Get rid of this arrogance that 12-step is the only way, that it's individuals; no, it wasn't the method for you (more on this below)
- Show EMPTHATY; that you acknowledge that staying sober FOREVER is a scary thought, that can go a LONG WAY
- Show ACKNOWLEDGEMENT to the original reasons why one may have started drinking in the first place. Are they still relevant? (Don't know one down, acknowledge)
- Do a better job of selling sobriety; stop selling it as 'being on the straight and narrow', 'forcing yourself' to avoid the one thing you want the most; tying in with the point above
- Ditch this idea that an individual is broken for life (more below)
- Social life; most people do not like the idea of throwing away their social life and replacing it with AA meetings
- Social isolation; if one is isolated find out the reasons why, what's stopping them; work in conjunction with people who know rather than be a jack of all trades
Why I don't believe in the word 'alcoholic';
People get addicted and dependent on substances only through repeatedly abusing it over time. Abuse of alcohol includes binge drinking, self-medicating, drinking off a hangover and daily drinking. People only get addicted by engaging in one or more of those patterns repeatedly. If I was to put itching powder in your underwear, would it be fair for me to call you a scratchoholic? If you were to abuse a highly addictive drug over years, can you be blamed for getting addicted?
People get addicted first psychologically (they develop cravings through pavlovian conditinoing), things that have become associated with drinking over time trigger it. We also develop beliefs about drinking.
Meanwhile, the more we drink and the more regularly we drink, we build up a tolerance. We can build tolerance, drink more, build more tolerance (as depressing as this is) and the get physically-dependent; get withdrawal symptoms.
The SAME IS TRUE OF ALL DRUGS not just alcohol (the fact that alcohol is not seen as a 'drug' is a big part of this).
It's not a disease, it's a consequence of your body over-adapting psychologically and physiologically. It's not you being broken or different from 'normies'. That's a load of rubbish & ********. This idea that there's only alcoholics and normies, what a damaging way to look at it! No wonder the success rate is questionable.
There are many good parts of AA like the social support. Many of what I've cited as the negatives such as this idea you have an incurable, disease, that you are different are complete ******** & TOTALLY UNECESSARY. Being forced to identify as an 'alcoholic' is also totally unnecessary. That's a reason people might not get help in the first place.
Then, there are those people who fall off the wagon. What happens? They get abandoned!!? That's what concerns me. Major flaw of that system. A better system would help them understand the reasons why they feel off instead of ostracize and shun.
Sorry to sound so angry. Don't write off all of the bullet points & don't just home in on one and ignore everything else. Thanks.
Yes, you sound angry. Hugs. I was angry in early recovery and lashed out all over the place, at myself, friends, family, recovery, others who seemed to have this recovery thing down while I still struggled, my addictions, you name it. I thought if THEY would just change how they operated (along with the rest of the Universe) I wouldn't have so many darn problems!!!! Why wouldn't they get with MY program and relieve me of my symptoms and pain!!!???
If the world and everyone in it would just do what I thought they should things would be so much easier on me! I wouldn't have to own up to any of my shortcomings, I could label my "issues" in any way that suited me and find ways to skirt right around them without having to do uncomfortable things. I thought it would be dandy if medical science could come up with a pill that would eliminate my feelings, the reason I drank, overate, used drugs and did a lot of other self destructive things. If something out there could just make me FEEL the way I wanted, I'd be cured.
Turned out that nothing out there could do that, only something inside of ME could do that and I had to do some work to uncover that part of me so it could operate. Enter...12 steps.
Ditch the label alcoholic so folks won't have to admit to having an actual serious issue with alcohol. Well, until I was willing to admit that I had a SERIOUS life threatening issue with booze (etc) I didn't see any reason to address it. I mean why get help for a little old bad habit? Surely I could kick that on my own. I don't know many people who go seeking help unless something has become a big issue in their life, possibly too big to ignore. But maybe I'm just different and know a different kind of person than you hang out with.
Maybe start a group for folks who want to save some money by not drinking so much anymore, or simply to avoid hangovers or something more upbeat.
I never heard anyone say 12 step is the only way. I've heard some folks say it's the only thing that worked for them, and that they are willing to share what worked for them, but never heard anyone claim it's the only way, Again, you and I probably hang out with different sorts of people.
Every alchoholic/addict I know knows that the idea of not drinking or using ever again is a terrifying thought. Every 12 step group I participate in (6 of them) operate on a one day at a time, just for today, keep it in the now frame of mind.
Acknowledge the original reasons we started drinking...sounds like step 4 all over the place. See if they are still present? Step 10. Do something about them? Steps 8, 9, 10 and 11.
Do a better job of selling sobriety? Hmmm, in 12 step I hear about RECOVERY, in every area of life. Nothing about white knuckling, everything about learning to live happy joyous and free. Never heard anyone refer to it as living on the straight and narrow, but constantly hear folks share about all the great things they are doing with their new found life.
Ditch the idea that the individual is broken for life. We acknowledge that we have a disease that isn't going anywhere, but that recovery IS possible and then we share how we are recovering. Never had anyone accuse me of being broken, different? Yeah, and that seems to be true. Not everyone around me went to the bizarre and dangerous means I did trying to avoid feelings. I found a group of people who did and they showed me how to move past that. They have never told me I'm broken.
Social life. I was definitely encouraged to change my playmates, playgrounds and playthings....at least the ones that involved using my drugs of choice. But I was offered a new social scene, people who lived without drugs, booze and various other deadly behaviors. My social schedule is busier than ever. Meetings, yes. But also parties, campouts, conventions, sledding, meals, shopping...pretty much everything I used to do and more, except drug and booze free. Again, you must be hanging out with a different sort of 12 step addict, because around here we are always doing something, including networking for jobs, giving each other rides to the dr, going on day trips, all without even the mention of addiction. Basically we are living full normal lives.
Social isolation? see above. I don't have to do hardly anything alone, unless I want to and choose to isolate. When I do that, other recovering addicts tend to call and check up on me and ask me to go hang out, hit a meeting, get lunch...or if I need a ride to the dr or anything.
I'm sorry you've had such crap experience with 12 step. No wonder you aren't interested in being a part of it. My experience has been very different.
Early on, I didn't feel like I do now. I had a list of complaints and ways they should improve the program to cater to me personally and to the way my particular disease manifests. It was only when I stopped trying to do things my way and tried what seemed to be working for them that I gained the blessed freedom of recovery.
And all that god talk...I'm an atheist and the steps STILL work for me, just like they said they would.
Find what works for you, by all means. Probably a better idea than trying to change what is working for others.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by Bubovski
I think the 'normie'/ 'alcoholic' dichotomy in the Big Book is confusing.
So called normal drinkers who may 'die a few years earlier" are not immune from alcoholism. I don't think there is any medical evidence to suggest such and to think such creates a false and flawed sense of security.
So called normal drinkers who may 'die a few years earlier" are not immune from alcoholism. I don't think there is any medical evidence to suggest such and to think such creates a false and flawed sense of security.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,027
Your tolerance theory is true, alcoholics do develop a tolerance to large amounts of alcohol. So why then: do some people who abuse alcohol never become alcoholic? I suppose I know a lot of drinkers. Ok: everyone I know is a drinker. Most of them drink heavy. And how many of them are alcoholic? Just two or three. I know it when I see it. I know it because it’s me. It’s the kind of drinking that goes so far out of the norm it inspires shock and fear in people.
I can see people who I thought had it, but successfully moderated, and never had to completely quit. I can see other people who I thought had it, but then over years I see that many times their drinking is very moderate. Then I see people who I thought had it, and yep....I rarely (if ever) see them sober and their hunt for drinks once they start is dogged, focused, and excessive. There they are. My people.
It’s still just a theory, but I believe this one: the brains of people who end up alcoholic are different than the brains of people who don’t. Not everyone here at SR believes this, but I have seen too much. In my own life, in my alcoholic father’s life, in everyone I know. To me the difference is clear.
For instance: the first time I tried alcohol, I was 14. I felt an immediate euphoria. I kept going back for drinks. I drank more and longer than others and was able to keep myself together longer than others. People around me were falling down and getting sloppy. It took a long time for that to happen for me. And the whole time during that party, I was sure I’d found my answer to life. I’ve never felt so amazing in my entire life and I was in love with it. That idea that there was nothing that could ever approximate that happiness led to excessive drinking. I don’t know anyone I am close to other than my father who obsessively loved drinking as much as I did. They weren’t alcoholics. We were. From the beginning.
Sure, there are other personal anecdotes from self proclaimed alcoholics that don’t match up to mine. But I know what I know. Sometimes a person’s life and experience leads to belief.
I can see people who I thought had it, but successfully moderated, and never had to completely quit. I can see other people who I thought had it, but then over years I see that many times their drinking is very moderate. Then I see people who I thought had it, and yep....I rarely (if ever) see them sober and their hunt for drinks once they start is dogged, focused, and excessive. There they are. My people.
It’s still just a theory, but I believe this one: the brains of people who end up alcoholic are different than the brains of people who don’t. Not everyone here at SR believes this, but I have seen too much. In my own life, in my alcoholic father’s life, in everyone I know. To me the difference is clear.
For instance: the first time I tried alcohol, I was 14. I felt an immediate euphoria. I kept going back for drinks. I drank more and longer than others and was able to keep myself together longer than others. People around me were falling down and getting sloppy. It took a long time for that to happen for me. And the whole time during that party, I was sure I’d found my answer to life. I’ve never felt so amazing in my entire life and I was in love with it. That idea that there was nothing that could ever approximate that happiness led to excessive drinking. I don’t know anyone I am close to other than my father who obsessively loved drinking as much as I did. They weren’t alcoholics. We were. From the beginning.
Sure, there are other personal anecdotes from self proclaimed alcoholics that don’t match up to mine. But I know what I know. Sometimes a person’s life and experience leads to belief.
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