courage2

About giving blunt counsel to those who keep drinking:

I know that some alcoholics seek comfort for their sick and sad behavior, and to achieve comfort, they tolerate alcoholic-behavior in others. Toleration is a form of implied encouragement -- misery loves company.

In defense of intolerance: Recovery starts with abstinence, which is a rejection of relapse, occasional binging, and moderation. Drinking and not drinking are at war in addicts. Those who recover from their problem with alcohol have to choose a side. Sympathy is a risky behavior when the enemy is lurking.

Because I feel for the troubles of people who try and fail at first, I want only to post: Quit Now. Please.

But sometimes, frankly, that feels so b!tchy. How to comfort but not condone?

yinzer

I know where you’re coming from but don’t have the right answer.

Gilmer

"Quit. Now. Please" is authoritative yet polite. It is a request.

It is possible to be direct and even blunt without being personally insulting.

"I don't mean to be harsh or callous, but it really does come down to this: quit or stay hooked. I know from my own experience.

"I also had many justifications for drinking that I would have sworn were legitimate--but in the end they all turned out to be cheap excuses.

"Please be on guard against deceiving yourself. Save yourself a lot of heartache and time. Just quit now and don't look back."

Dropsie

Great thread.

Its a really difficult line for me to draw.

Thanks

biminiblue

Yeah, well you know how I feel about this. I just refuse to continually engage. Seems there are plenty enough people other than me who like to keep engaging, so I don't think anyone really cares if I just step out of it. They can all keep dancing. Life is too short I say.

I came into recovery through the back-door of codependency: I learned it is emotionally disastrous for me to keep engaging. I try to just leave them to it.

Gilmer

It's good to know our limitations.

Hawkeye13

I sort of take a love the sinner hate the sin approach--I don't mind people being blunt with me, and sometimes that really helps me get real about what I'm doing, but I know it does really negatively impacts some folks who aren't perhaps ready to hear the truth just yet.

I think being true to your own inner voice with compassion is all we can really do--that authenticity comes across and everyone responds to a slightly different "gradient" of direct feedback--at least I know that's true for students, so it seems there's room at the table for all.

I have had a rough few months with relapse this past year and am now back on track, so in my experience, I've really benefited from people calling me out on excuses and denial but still being kind to me in terms of empathy and not just standing on a soapbox. That's always how you've treated me courage, and I appreciate it.

I'm glad to be back on the right side of the equation, and thanks to the many who have helped me get there.

courage2

Thanks everyone for your responses so far.

When I used to work with kids with drug problems, I believed in safe haven. But there were physical things I could offer, like a place to change clothes, a $20 bill, or a cigarette. And they were kids.

And I burned out on it. There were, for me, only so many stories I could hear with a giving ear: 15 year olds selling themselves for drug money, suicide by shotgun in front of the mother of your child, stabbing a liquor store clerk in the back.

I never want to hear another story, and never want to be one again.

True, most of us won't get as extreme as that, but that's just a question of degree -- and socio-economics. A brutalized soul is a brutalized soul.

I honestly don't know whether I can't feel sympathy for an active drunk anymore, or don't know how to show it. I'd give everyone a clean t-shirt if I could, but on SR all I have is words, and I don't want them to be empty.

biminiblue

I think it's incredibly difficult to be unfailingly sympathetic when there is so much of it on this site and in meetings. Each person gives what they can, ya know? I've spent a lot of time posting to newcomers. Every once in a while I get a PM from someone who says I said something that mattered. Mostly I feel like I'm talking to myself; and to be fair, I could use a talking to sometimes.

I have a lot of serious trauma in my past, I know a lot of us do. Due to that I can get triggered by posts on this site or peoples' stories in general. When I'm triggered I try to shut my mouth. Sometimes I'm not able to in real life, here it's a little easier because I can re-read it before I post. There have been lots of posts I haven't made after they're typed out.

Like Gilmer says, I try to know my limits. One of the best things I learned is, "Don't do something, just stand there."

More will be revealed, regardless of what I do about it. My controlling nature thinks that they need to hear from me - but they don't. They're on their own path.

PhoenixJ

For me- I have a few friends who I have met at meetings or in the recovery program who have gone back to drinking. I make it clear to these people (as I see they do try) I do not drink. That as long as they try (which they do) I will support and listen, but not encourage their behaviours. So long as they are not damaging me or others- but it is a fine line that I walk very, very carefully. I have very clear boundaries in place. Only meet with these friends if they are sober and in public and for shore times- a few hours max. At least that way I offer some support- but do not encourage or cut them off. When I was at my lowest ebb- post burns (from booze), in a very bad housing situation (drugs sold, used- boarding house) where I did drink to cope with the hell I was in (which was very bad), the pain and the loneliness and I was literally dying of self care deficit...my family abandoned me. I will not abandon someone I have decided is a friend like that..there is always hope.

Dee74

After many years, I've accepted I can only share my story.

Sometimes it helps people, other times it doesn't seem to, but maybe somewhere down the road it might spring into flower.

sometimes of course the best response is hey I'm listening.

I try to go for empathy rather than sympathy.

Empathy for me is remembering what it was like, and showing care and concern without feeding anyone's addiction monster.

Sympathy was the last thing I needed - I felt sorry enough for myself.

D

Dee74

Grungehead

One of my favorite sentiments from Harry Callahan in "Dirty Harry". It sounds so cliche but it's kept me out of trouble many times, and got me into trouble many more when I didn't heed them.

Some people do better with tough love than others. That's the tricky part when communicating online, there's no visual cues to help determine which method might be the best one to employ for an individual. I have come to the conclusion that when online and unsure it's better to bite my tongue.

WaterOx

Interesting topic.

I've seen that fine line crossed in my own limited experience with sobriety and I feel like I have to get out fast, when I see it.

Who am I to have all the answers? After all, they are not the only one with a problem, are they.

Cosima11

I know there were people in my life (one in particular) who kept engaging much longer than they should have, and by the end they were furious. Both forms of "caring" helped, but I'd be lying if I said the rage and insults weren't more impactful than the sympathy or laughing it off approach.

This isn't really the place for condemnation, rage, or insults. That being said it's also not really the place for endless commiseration.. And I think issues can arise when concern is misconstrued as a personal attack.

But ultimately I know quitting had to be on my time and my time only, so I don't expect it to be any different for anyone else here. I can still care without being attached to the outcome.

WaterOx

For what it's worth, I have gleaned only kindness in your posts- and I read like 15 pages of that friggin Cow & O thread. Didn't see anything that was "bishhy" to me.

Not everyone agreed with you- especially the people who didn't seem to want to quit (what a shocker)- but that's not on you.

I mean this is a sobriety forum. What do people want?

courage2

I hope this isn't being read as all personal about me or anyone. It's true that sometimes I fear that even empathy gets mucked up in the digital void where SR meets alcoholism -- like a dark web, but way ickier.

After a bunch of posts, I'm still a

August252015

Great comments above.

One thing I will add is that I have to question my motives, sometimes. Am I coming place of love and peace regardless of my word choice? Or is it ego, frustration, whatever ...? That truism "is it useful, is it necessary, is it kind" is helpful (not that I always follow it!).

I do know that while I would wish to spare others their version of the agony I experienced during my alcoholic drinking years, I simply can't.

Ken33xx

A lot would depend on if the person actually wants to stop drinking/drugs. I won't judge but I won't enable either.

I'll buy you a cup of coffee and something to eat but I won't lend money or let you sleep on my couch.

I won't listen to endless excuses either.

A person drinks and sometimes unpleasant consequences follow. The wife left? You got fired? Well, you're 50 years old.

Don't you think it's time to grow up?

Gilmer

I don’t see anything wrong with saying, “I’m sorry buddy, that sucks.”

Hear and acknowledge the pain.

But then immediately take the stance of “Where do we go from here?”

It’s important to experience and feel consequences—but wallowing never leads to anything but a dead end.