An observation on Alcoholism and Addiction
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An observation on Alcoholism and Addiction
I'm training in a new career and as part of that have spent a good deal of time over the last three years in inpatient mental health units, medical detox facilities and clinics for the homeless.
A really interesting phenomenon I've noticed is how the folks with alcohol and drug issues (present and past) interact with the medical professionals. Broad brush, not everyone is the same but...
They are far more likely to approach treatment assuming they know better than the professionals what it is that they need, very often to the point of being prescriptive...demanding certain treatments and refusing others, diagnosing themselves and arguing with any external professional perspective of what their problem is.
Everyone wants to be involved in their own treatment and have their say...but the level of control that those folks with alcohol and drug problems try to assert is hugely noticeable.
Folks addicted to multiple substances especially opiates are the worst. They demand specific medications in specific combinations and can often be quite manipulative and highly aggressive if they're not catered to.
But even the folks in recovery just seem to relate to the medical community differently. Where most folks go to the professionals and ask for advice and help, many seem to go to the doctors and spend all their time explaining what it is that's wrong with them, what it is they need and what they plan to do about it. I've sat through whole appointments watching qualified professionals sitting bemused, even patiently amused while they watch someone go through this whole performance.
Obviously folks with an active drug or alcohol problem are much worse but this seems to be something much deeper...that persists long after we put the substances down.
Just an opinion and anecdotal evidence...I don't pretend to be an authority or speak for everyone. Just thought I would share those ramblings
P
A really interesting phenomenon I've noticed is how the folks with alcohol and drug issues (present and past) interact with the medical professionals. Broad brush, not everyone is the same but...
They are far more likely to approach treatment assuming they know better than the professionals what it is that they need, very often to the point of being prescriptive...demanding certain treatments and refusing others, diagnosing themselves and arguing with any external professional perspective of what their problem is.
Everyone wants to be involved in their own treatment and have their say...but the level of control that those folks with alcohol and drug problems try to assert is hugely noticeable.
Folks addicted to multiple substances especially opiates are the worst. They demand specific medications in specific combinations and can often be quite manipulative and highly aggressive if they're not catered to.
But even the folks in recovery just seem to relate to the medical community differently. Where most folks go to the professionals and ask for advice and help, many seem to go to the doctors and spend all their time explaining what it is that's wrong with them, what it is they need and what they plan to do about it. I've sat through whole appointments watching qualified professionals sitting bemused, even patiently amused while they watch someone go through this whole performance.
Obviously folks with an active drug or alcohol problem are much worse but this seems to be something much deeper...that persists long after we put the substances down.
Just an opinion and anecdotal evidence...I don't pretend to be an authority or speak for everyone. Just thought I would share those ramblings
P
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Originally Posted by soberista 
May i just ask...are you here because you have experienced alcoholism/addiction yourself or just because you want input from this forum for yourself/your job etc?
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I have seen the same thing, in fact I was very much like that myself. Seems a funny thing but an alcoholic can go to treatment and come out a therapist.
There seems to be a huge chasm, at times, between what the alcoholic thinks his problem(s) is, and the reality the professionals see. I have been caught out on a couple of occasions where the professionals had been briefed on my back ground and didn't buy my story one bit. I would say that the fact they would not swallow my ideas probably saved my life.
This must be the only disease where the patient thinks he knows more than anyone else how to solve his problem, whilst only being able to cite a track record of failure in support if his arguments. As I think of it, I pretty well knew how to solve all the problems of the world This disconnect with reality has a name I believe. I think it might be called denial.
There seems to be a huge chasm, at times, between what the alcoholic thinks his problem(s) is, and the reality the professionals see. I have been caught out on a couple of occasions where the professionals had been briefed on my back ground and didn't buy my story one bit. I would say that the fact they would not swallow my ideas probably saved my life.
This must be the only disease where the patient thinks he knows more than anyone else how to solve his problem, whilst only being able to cite a track record of failure in support if his arguments. As I think of it, I pretty well knew how to solve all the problems of the world
This disconnect with reality has a name I believe. I think it might be called denial.
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Paulokes,
I am a healthcare professional. The behavior you describe is part of the addiction. I think that it results because of the addiction and not the other way around.
Abusers recognize healthcare workers as an audience or vehicle to feed their addiction. “Manipulation” is the way that they go about getting illegal substances. I think that even if they want help with their addiction, their fear of what will happen without drugs drives their behavior.
Their cravings and withdrawal symptoms drive them to do whatever is necessary to avoid going through withdrawal. I wonder if the degree of behavior correlates to the severity of addiction or the substance one is addicted to. I think post withdrawal, if there is controlling behavior, it has more to do with the anxiety that they face coping with life (that may have led them to the substance use to begin with) or being overwhelmed by their post withdrawal circumstance. When you think about it, what other means to an end do they know?
I am a healthcare professional. The behavior you describe is part of the addiction. I think that it results because of the addiction and not the other way around.
Abusers recognize healthcare workers as an audience or vehicle to feed their addiction. “Manipulation” is the way that they go about getting illegal substances. I think that even if they want help with their addiction, their fear of what will happen without drugs drives their behavior.
Their cravings and withdrawal symptoms drive them to do whatever is necessary to avoid going through withdrawal. I wonder if the degree of behavior correlates to the severity of addiction or the substance one is addicted to. I think post withdrawal, if there is controlling behavior, it has more to do with the anxiety that they face coping with life (that may have led them to the substance use to begin with) or being overwhelmed by their post withdrawal circumstance. When you think about it, what other means to an end do they know?
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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I was a very arrogant recovering former addict, and at least in my case I think that might have saved me. It was part of me re-asserting control over my life and direction, and I knew better than everyone else about what I needed to do - and on the whole, for me, I was right, at least over the long haul, though perhaps I sometimes made my recovery more stressful than it might have been. It all worked out, and eventually the puffed-up arrogance faded away, but it took a while.
It was part of me re-asserting control over my life and direction, and I knew better than everyone else about what I needed to do - and on the whole, for me, I was right, at least over the long haul, though perhaps I sometimes made my recovery more stressful than it might have been. It all worked out, and eventually the puffed-up arrogance faded away, but it took a while.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
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Originally Posted by paulokes
I'm training in a new career and as part of that have spent a good deal of time over the last three years in inpatient mental health units, medical detox facilities and clinics for the homeless.
A really interesting phenomenon I've noticed is how the folks with alcohol and drug issues (present and past) interact with the medical professionals. Broad brush, not everyone is the same but...
They are far more likely to approach treatment assuming they know better than the professionals what it is that they need, very often to the point of being prescriptive...demanding certain treatments and refusing others, diagnosing themselves and arguing with any external professional perspective of what their problem is.
Everyone wants to be involved in their own treatment and have their say...but the level of control that those folks with alcohol and drug problems try to assert is hugely noticeable.
Folks addicted to multiple substances especially opiates are the worst. They demand specific medications in specific combinations and can often be quite manipulative and highly aggressive if they're not catered to.
But even the folks in recovery just seem to relate to the medical community differently. Where most folks go to the professionals and ask for advice and help, many seem to go to the doctors and spend all their time explaining what it is that's wrong with them, what it is they need and what they plan to do about it. I've sat through whole appointments watching qualified professionals sitting bemused, even patiently amused while they watch someone go through this whole performance.
Obviously folks with an active drug or alcohol problem are much worse but this seems to be something much deeper...that persists long after we put the substances down.
Just an opinion and anecdotal evidence...I don't pretend to be an authority or speak for everyone. Just thought I would share those ramblings
P
A really interesting phenomenon I've noticed is how the folks with alcohol and drug issues (present and past) interact with the medical professionals. Broad brush, not everyone is the same but...
They are far more likely to approach treatment assuming they know better than the professionals what it is that they need, very often to the point of being prescriptive...demanding certain treatments and refusing others, diagnosing themselves and arguing with any external professional perspective of what their problem is.
Everyone wants to be involved in their own treatment and have their say...but the level of control that those folks with alcohol and drug problems try to assert is hugely noticeable.
Folks addicted to multiple substances especially opiates are the worst. They demand specific medications in specific combinations and can often be quite manipulative and highly aggressive if they're not catered to.
But even the folks in recovery just seem to relate to the medical community differently. Where most folks go to the professionals and ask for advice and help, many seem to go to the doctors and spend all their time explaining what it is that's wrong with them, what it is they need and what they plan to do about it. I've sat through whole appointments watching qualified professionals sitting bemused, even patiently amused while they watch someone go through this whole performance.
Obviously folks with an active drug or alcohol problem are much worse but this seems to be something much deeper...that persists long after we put the substances down.
Just an opinion and anecdotal evidence...I don't pretend to be an authority or speak for everyone. Just thought I would share those ramblings
P
As far as those in recovery who insist they know best regarding medical treatment. I am sure there are plenty of people not in recovery who do the same. Some people think they what is best for just about everything.
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Once I decided to get sober, I chose to be the exact opposite of what you describe. It was part of my personal deal. Find good doctors, be honest and humble, do what they said. Only way it can work for me.
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Well by the number of times I've been in the facilities you describe you would think I was in training, but sadly, no. I was a patient.
I think what you are describing are detoxing and /or newly sober addicts. So what you are seeing is referred to as 'drug seeking behavior'. And yeah, we addicts are intensely manipulative, irrational, rationalizing lunes. Nothing liKe 30 addicts, crammed together, detoxing....and surrounded by the potential for benzos, anti anxiety meds, sleep meds and suboxone. So Yeah, we'll tell ya just about anything to find relief.
Ah rehab.....good times.....NOT
I think what you are describing are detoxing and /or newly sober addicts. So what you are seeing is referred to as 'drug seeking behavior'. And yeah, we addicts are intensely manipulative, irrational, rationalizing lunes. Nothing liKe 30 addicts, crammed together, detoxing....and surrounded by the potential for benzos, anti anxiety meds, sleep meds and suboxone. So Yeah, we'll tell ya just about anything to find relief.
Ah rehab.....good times.....NOT
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Originally Posted by Frickaflip233
Well by the number of times I've been in the facilities you describe you would think I was in training, but sadly, no. I was a patient.
I think what you are describing are detoxing and /or newly sober addicts. So what you are seeing is referred to as 'drug seeking behavior'.
I think what you are describing are detoxing and /or newly sober addicts. So what you are seeing is referred to as 'drug seeking behavior'.
In denial of the nature of their mental health difficulties as much as they ever were about addiction.As I said no intent to be controversial...Just a curious observation and a reminder that alcoholism is much a disorder of perseoctive and outlook as it is chemical intake
P
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Do you think that years of drinking and/or drugging caused neurological changes, or that a certain way that we're wired causes both the behavior you mentioned and all types of substance abuse?
Do you find that you also share these traits?
Do you find that you also share these traits?
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Join Date: May 2017
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To temper the main thrust of the thread, which is a really interesting one, the medical profession is not different to any other in that there are a large number just getting by and not necessarily all that engaged in what they do. The good ones really stand out. There's a spectrum of proficiency and excellence in every profession and the medical profession is not exempt from that.
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Join Date: Mar 2018
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Well, I've definitely been there. One of my biggest worries when detoxing/withdrawing is that people don't take alcohol withdrawal seriously and don't quite believe I consume as much as I say I do (perhaps because of bloodwork which shows liver values as in range).
There was an occasion where I was denied Librium when I probably needed it. Although, I guess you could say I didn't need it since I survived, but man was it rough and man, did I think that doctor was irresponsible.
That said, it's probably true that the medical professionals know best. Especially if they are trained in withdrawal/detox counseling (mine was an ER doctor).
There was an occasion where I was denied Librium when I probably needed it. Although, I guess you could say I didn't need it since I survived, but man was it rough and man, did I think that doctor was irresponsible.
That said, it's probably true that the medical professionals know best. Especially if they are trained in withdrawal/detox counseling (mine was an ER doctor).
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
I have seen the same thing, in fact I was very much like that myself. Seems a funny thing but an alcoholic can go to treatment and come out a therapist.
There seems to be a huge chasm, at times, between what the alcoholic thinks his problem(s) is, and the reality the professionals see. I have been caught out on a couple of occasions where the professionals had been briefed on my back ground and didn't buy my story one bit. I would say that the fact they would not swallow my ideas probably saved my life.
This must be the only disease where the patient thinks he knows more than anyone else how to solve his problem, whilst only being able to cite a track record of failure in support if his arguments. As I think of it, I pretty well knew how to solve all the problems of the world This disconnect with reality has a name I believe. I think it might be called denial.
There seems to be a huge chasm, at times, between what the alcoholic thinks his problem(s) is, and the reality the professionals see. I have been caught out on a couple of occasions where the professionals had been briefed on my back ground and didn't buy my story one bit. I would say that the fact they would not swallow my ideas probably saved my life.
This must be the only disease where the patient thinks he knows more than anyone else how to solve his problem, whilst only being able to cite a track record of failure in support if his arguments. As I think of it, I pretty well knew how to solve all the problems of the world
This disconnect with reality has a name I believe. I think it might be called denial.I certainly knew everything when I got out of treatment.
When it comes to my recovery and what meds I can safely take (based on the cross-addiction list the treatment center gave me, as modified by those being published by other treatment centers today), I trust my judgment (namely, when in doubt, don't) better than that of most MD's.
I have the anecdotes to show for it sometime when I have more time to post (e.g. trying to explain to the .
It's my recovery and not theirs, so, if they think I can safely take cough medicine with codeine, they can be my guest, but I'm not putting that stuff in my body.
I have wadded up and thrown away scrips before in lieu of having a discussion with a doctor about what I can safely take.
Not often, but it has happened.
The fact that they may have an MD doesn't always equate with an adequate knowledge of addiction and brain chemistry.
But these days, when I go to the doctor, I'm not looking for benzo's or anything similar.
So I don't have to tell a tale of woe to get a scrip.
If I feel that a doctor doesn't understand the brain chemistry associated with addiction, I will likely find another doctor.
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