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Here's one, there are more......

On page 27 of the Big Book, Dr. Jung revealed the solution to Rowland H.’s alcoholism: “Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences.” This statement turned out to be the AA solution for alcoholism!

August252015

That wasn't what struck me specifically but since you did use terms like hocus pocus and blind faith that might well be a big area for you to really learn what AA the program has to say about a higher power.

I was hearing you equivocate and take things in bits from here, bits from there, as Mike basically said. To me, this is often bargaining with aspects of sobriety, recovery, and any program for such, when you don't like them. Or when's they don't "feel right" immediately. That kind of stuff did me only harm, and more drinking- and would have kept me distracted by the actual plan for a new life in recovery.

I don't take AA as a one size fits all program except for the steps- How It Works, if you will, those critical first 164 p. To me, using personality recommended tools like a take it easy mantra (which I hated til I started to think of ways that really could be useful to me.), 90/90 and such are excellent ideas IF you are working AA the program in this time. You have to separate "what folks say" that is opinion, bias (good or bad), whatever from what the program says.

Modern thinking, wording, all that...? I'd liken the language of the B.B. Which is unchanged, to the works of poets and epic novelists of hundreds or more years ago. Shakespeare hasn't been "updated" (assuming you are still working with the actual works) but the stories still ring true, much like, for example, the one of Our Mutual Friend and others in he B.B.

My concern for you, or anyone, and even myself (mot so much now but definitely at the early days) is that the alcoholic mind can convince us of, dissuade us from, twist around....anything. We may not see that we are fighting ourselves in recovery but often others can.

Over complicating things and, honestly, scrambling around trying to "learn" every type of program out there can simply distract from the one true point. Not drinking.

Like I said in my earlier posts, it is great that you are sober and working on staying that way. My ears just perk up at hints of unwillingness which means....lack of acceptance. And whether that's about a step or how you can possibly have a higher power, or anything in just every day life....it never makes life easier and more peaceful for me.

August252015

Yes. I would also add that it is important to remember that everyone trying to get sober with AA can resonate more closely with some parts of it than others. Some very traditionally religious drunks come into AA and so the God babbling is an unkind way to characterize the very thing that may be doing the most to keep them sober out of all the steps. Personally, if I am ever confused I need to circle back to step 1 and examine my acceptance of whatever is at hand, and my daily focus in largely on actively living 10, 11&12. I know someone who is a ha d core atheist that pretty much swears by the Serenity Prayer as his higher power. Almost literally, the prayer itself, like he has removed the word God and taken the meat and point of it his whole being.

It takes time for heads to clear and us to learn. True when we were in school, at new jobs and oh so true when we got sober. I've self corrected and sure had others correct me along my journey as I was able to listen and seek to understand.

Briansy

Thanks August, all good stuff and much appreciated. Was probably a little bit early to be pontificating!

Gottalife

I had to smile at this, and the comment for SoberCah about wanting to know it all. That was all beaten out of me.

Either alcohol stupefied me as when I got sober I reckon my iq was down around my shoe size, or while everyone else was in the queue for wisdom, I got myself an extra helping of stupidity.

Anyway, when I finally walked into AA I stupidly and rather gullibly believed what they told me about what was required for recovery, that is to say the suggestions in the big book. I really bought into the ideas that rigorous honesty was vital, and half measures would get me nowhere. A rather naive approach for sure, but then I’m still here and a lot of my more sceptical contemporaries are not.

I once heard that trying to understand the 12 steps in advance is like trying to know what sex is like without ever having tried it. The experience is somewhat more meaningful than the acedemic understanding. IME the steps can only be understood in hind sight. Take the action, have the experience, then comes understanding.

Of course nothing is compulsory in aa, it couldn’t be more open to personal ideas and approaches, but on the other hand I have yet to find the documented AA experience that a chronic end stage alcoholic like myself can get well using only a bit of it. AA simply does not make any claim like that. Like anti-biotics the full course is usually needed.

Briansy

That's helpful. Thank you.

August252015

Just a thought to add to this discussion and the original question of the OP.

I usually "dont get" why so many people in SR seem to think it is skewed toward AA. That said, I have grown ever more open to different ways and choices for living recovery both on here, and IRL. I lead a restaurant industry recovery group that is not an AA nor NA group.. We (the board) deliberately did this both so we could promote it essentially because addiction is rampant in our industry....and because while all four of us are dedicated AAers (and with only 2.5 yrs sober I am the baby by a decade or more to the others, one having 35+ yrs!!) we recognized others needs options.

Being of service to folks at different stages, inclinations and such helps me to listen and learn. To me, the steps are applicable to anyone wanting to live a sober life as a decent person! Things like personal accountability seen in step eleven, or accepting reality, step one....good for all of us as humans. I often recommend SR to folks just because there are various options and people succeeding with programs and plans whether just SR as Dee describes for himself, or ....

This works for me. I have had a couple people in my home group say things to the Effect of why wouldn't you suggest AA to everyone, the inference being only AA. Well, IMO, as I have said aoround here plenty, anyone needing to get sober who does and stays that way is a winner. Going beyond just abstaining to a good life of what I describe as recovery is even better for the individual, their environment, and the world.

Morning thoughts as I have a day off, go to early AA with my husband and have my other meeting with my F and B peeps later!

Gottalife

Goopd point August. This is one of the things that has changed dramatically in wthe world in which AA now lives. I think it is in the chapter A Vision For You where they describe AA's working relationship with acute alcoholic medical services sending an individual to us. It states something like "every few days this doctor will refer to us an individual whom he thinks could recover on a spiritual basis". They were selective.

Silkworth said the same thing as did Jung, there were a "considerable aggregate" of problem drinkers they had always been able to help, while at the same time never having any success with the particular sub group, where I fit.

You would think with all the other options on the table now, that the feeders could be even more selective, matching patient or prisoner more closely to potential solutions. But in fact the opposite has happened. A mere DUI is enough to get you sent to AA these days, or a bit of unwise or foolish drinking. Anyone who makes a mistake with a drink in their hand is a candidate in a lot of places.

I am not sure what AA is supposed to do about this. We do not have anything in our tool box to help with issues other than chronic alcoholism, though the program itself has been freely shared with anyone who wants it - there are many 12 step fellowships.

The question would better be directed at those doing the referring. There could be a number of reasons in this modern efficiency driven day and age. Cost, availability, the need to be seen to do something, the culling out of patients with a poor prognosis to make the numbers look better, a misunderstanding of what alcoholism is and the type of alcoholic who might benefit from the AA solution, legislation against the use of spiritual concepts in public facilities, expediency, a total lack of confidnece about what to do with particular patients,and of course AAs enviable track record of success.

Others have raised this question before, and my own position is that I wish more options were employed and referrers were more selective in who they sent towards AA.

ScottFromWI

Please folks, let’s keep this to a discussion and not an argument for or against any particular recovery method. Please stick to the original topic, posts have been removed.

fini

"There are simply no other sources of help that are given for free based on other methods (at least no-ones found a way yet)."

vulcan, just fyi, LifeRing is free, and i don't know about SMART.
many health community clinics have free drug and alcohol counseling, as far as i know, but that might depend on where you live.

your suggestion that there simply ARE no other sources is simply false, and i really do hope that you and others will pour the effort and energy into those groups/sources so that they can grow and continue to be available to others also.

NYCDoglvr

I'm one of them. For me God = group of drunks.

Dee74

SMART Recovery according to the local website is free,

D

fini

thanks, Dee

Ken33xx

Why are 12-step programs seen as the 'go to'?

AA has a long history in the States and is free. It's widely known as the place to go if you think you have a problem.


It's best to understand early on in AA you’re not going to agree with everyone. If you share some of what you posted above I can all but guarantee there will be those who will immediately push back. No need for that. The 12-steps are a blue print designed to help you live on life’s terms. Try working all 12 or take what you need and leave the rest. Everything in AA is suggested.

About BB thumpers:
It’s not unusual to meet members with all kinds of long-term sobriety who are still trying to convince themselves they are healthy when it's apparent that's not the case. But so, what? That’s their trip.

What is important is not how well you share in a meeting but how well you live your life.

Good luck.