Gottalife

The point is not the similarity of the diseases, other than they are, in the example, both terminal. The point is in the very different reactions of the sufferers to treatment proposals.

and in your seocnd para, what do you base your opinion on? Experience? Are you suggesting that alcoholoics have not lost the power of choice in drink. I mean that is the very definition of an alcoholic, the inability to make the right choice when it counts.
If Sohard had the power of choice I am sure it would have been exercised long ago.

I am not saying you don't have it, but how do you know someone you never met has it also. Where is your evidence?

For myself I am quoting expert medical opinion. There are some people that nothing but a spiritual experience will help, and AA is good at that. That is not all problem drinkers, but just some of us. When you spout your ill informed opinions, you are trying to shut the door on what might be an individuals last hope. Why would you do that?

We don't tell lies. We share experience about something with which you have absolutely no experience. And my experience is that AA has brought permanent recovery, over 38 years. That is no lie. And it has worked for millions of others.

If you follow my psots for any length of time you will see I encourage a person to try all other avenues, preferably before coming to AA. You never know, something might work along the way. But when everything has been tried and nothing works, that is where AA has its greatest successes.. You wont have to read very far on this site to find some examples.

Just to address one final misconception, AA is not about being powerless, that'sthe nature of alcoholism. AA is all about finding the power.

Wholesome

If people had actually lost their power of choice then no one would ever be able to quit, yet people do it every single day.

If we are going to talk about evidence based methods to quit then I don't understand why anyone would ever be encouraged to take the steps. Less than 5% success and that doesn't take into account the people who die while trying to make it work.

Where is your evidence that she doesn't have her own power? That she is struggling right now? We were all there at one point. Using that as an example of how she can't do it without AA is disingenuous and Addictive Voice.

It just bothers me when it seems like when she is at a low point she is told she can't do it without AA because that's not true.

Anyway I don't want to get into a thing over this. I wanted to give her a different opinion and I've done that. She has been using AVRT and I hope that she continues to.

Dropsie

BJ,

I also dont want to get into a thing, but I love Mike's posts -- have never been to AA, but hope I would go if I needed to.

And I hope that SoHard will do whatever she needs to do to get out of this hell.

Is not about the way we get there right, its about the fact that we do.

Good w/e.

Stayingsassy

I agree. It's about stepping up your game when your other methods haven't worked. Do something different if the first thing fails.

I'm a huge believer in AVRT. It got me sober and I am still sober. I still use avrt on a daily basis with my big plan. But I'm going back to AA to meet some deeper needs. I don't have the luxury of therapy, it's not covered by insurance so I only use therapy when absolutely necessary. But my point is, looking for ways to achieve solid sobriety no matter what form that takes. I don't think recovery methods should be as political as they are. It makes some folks feel like they "cant" use other methods because they "don't believe in it."

all methods have some value. Especially when a person's safety is at risk and they are faced with a life and death crisis, which a failure to quit alcoholic drinking is, by nature.

This isn't something to take sides with, it's something that has to be dealt with or people die. Not always just the alcoholic, sadly.

biminiblue

I hope Sohard will come back and post.

Any and all methods, I say. I use(d) everything I read. Spiritual/scientific/intellectual/physical/emotional. All are valid.

It's not us against them. It's us against ourselves.

tomsteve

a crapton more who didnt have the power die from alcohoism every single day. they lost the power of choice.
SOME people dont lose the power of choice.
i dont know why people have to think everyone can stop on their own will power- it is a fact that that just isnt the case, can truly make a person feel like a POS, and possibly kill them to try and force it onto them that they can stop on their own.

im lost on where anyone said sohard cant do it without AA.

Fusion

In my experience, the above paragraph can be flipped and the reverse is also true. I was told I couldn’t stop under my own will-power (free-will) and that I needed to find a power greater than myself, a Higher Power, God, Group of Drunks etc., and it made me feel like a POS when the Steps didn’t work for me. It was utterly disempowering and soul destroying and I was without hope. I wished I was dead and was resigned to drinking myself into oblivion, in fact my daily intake ramped up massively.

If it wasn’t for my second sponsor suggesting alternative approaches, I could’ve given up trying to stop, on the basis I was one of the constitutionally incapables. Instead, I investigated other methods, learnt everything from current neuroscience, behavioural science and ancient Buddhist teachings......and I found a way to stop that worked for me. Then I applied my learnings to enrich my life in sobriety.

Sohard, please return and post, because no one is incapable, there is always hope, and one day, when you recover, this dark time will just be part of your history. Have you tried AA yet?

GerandTwine

Hi Sohard,

Encouraging you NOT TO DRINK isn’t working. You keep drinking.

Ok, Let’s turn the tables.

I am now going to encourage you TO DRINK, and see if you can pull yourself together and “fail” at doing that.

Plan to drink in two weeks from now on June 16th at this time of day.

HAH, I just woke up everyone’s Beast who is reading this here. See, there’s that image of what it would be like to do just that on a nice Saturday afternoon.

During the coming two weeks, though, you can only think about what that drinking will be like. You cannot do any actual preliminary drinking in advance of that time and date to prep yourself for that big day. Of course, we can all do that kind of thinking along with you. Hello, you old Beast. Rattle that cage.

Whom among us would actually go ahead and DRINK two weeks from now? Well, we will have to wait and maybe find out.

It actually won’t be so hard for all of us to “fail”.

GT

Fusion

Hi Sohard, just wondering how you are feeling today .

Sohard

Hello,

Thank you all for your words of wisdom. Today is my new day #1, so I logged on and read everything everyone advised. While AVRT still really resonates with me, everyone is right in that clearly it is not working, at least not yet. So, I'm thinking about AA for the face to face support. I mean, I guess it can't hurt. But, I don't know why, but the idea of the steps doesn't sit well with me. At least not at this point. I'm still so convinced this is a neurological/brain issue. I don't know. It's just where I'm at now.

Today is horrible, as I knew it would be. It is SO EASY to think, just start tomorrow. But then, the cycle continues. I don't even enjoy drinking anymore so I don't know why the hell I do it. I'm pissed off and disappointed at myself the whole time I'm drinking, I wake up anxiety ridden and scared, and I end up wasting a ton of money (for example, I'll buy a bottle of vodka to make just ONE vodka tonic and then dump out the rest, but then I'll go get a bottle of wine and do the same thing, and then say screw it and order a bottle of wine to be delivered because, heck, 2 drinks isn't going to cut it!). It's CRAZY. I'm trying to moderate but clearly can't. I don't know what the hell that is about.

Logically, I know WHO CARES that I can't drink. Just quit. I have ONE LIFE. Do I really want to spend it sitting by myself in oblivion?? Do I really want to be in a situation where I perhaps do some awful thing that can't be taken back, like drunk drive and kill someone?? The madness has to end. I just have to stop thinking I can go back out. I have to. So many good things happened when I quit for those 4 months, and now I am putting them all in jeopardy. It's just freaking scary. Particularly because I get so drunk now in a way I didn't used to, in a frightening way, because my tolerance is just not the same, but I drink the same. Again, it's just so scary.

Anyway, so, here I am. Again. Day 1 AGAIN. Thank you all for your support. This is getting embarrassing.

Stayingsassy

I'm wondering what your exact thoughts are before you pick up?

do you think you can control it, or do you know you can't but say I don't care I'm doing it anyway?

Also, is it happening right after work? maybe you are hungry and not eating?

Sohard

Well, I know I can't drink. That I have the type of brain that gets addicted to the alcohol. Just like right after I first tried cigarettes, I was fairly addicted just a few weeks after that. Clearly, drugs (and I include alcohol in that) don't work for me. But, as for my thoughts before drinking...I think what I am thinking is "sh#$! I had such a successful 4 month run but then I screwed it all up. It will take FOREVER to get to that point again. Like, it's a marathon with no end in sight." And, I don't have the same intense physical withdrawals I did when I initially quit. I actually (it sounds weird) but sort of need them because they remind me that I am harming my body by drinking. So, instead, I try to remember the hell I initially went through when I was literally shaking. This is no way to live, drink a few days, sober 10-11 days, drink a few days, sober a few more weeks, etc. It is insane. I just need to the merry-go-round to STOP so I can get OFF.

Sohard

This really speaks to me. Okay, I'm trying this. Thank you.

biminiblue

Maybe it can be (and is) a brain disease that causes a mental dysfunction and results in screwed up thinking.

Maybe someone in AA will say something that will make sense.

Alcohol does a number on impulse control and cognitive (Executive) function. That is a biological/neurological fact. Something has to break through somehow. You don't know where or who it may be - but PLEASE keep searching.

Indeed - what you have been doing is not working and if nothing else, it might be the fix. Hearing your story from a hundred other live people in their own words and voices may be what you need. I'm so glad you came back and are trying again.

Marcutah1

Sohard, that wizard you speak of is you. Just believe it. You made the decision to get sober now you just have to decide to stay sober. You have the power.

Sohard

I love this. It gives me so much hope. Thank you for writing it.

Stayingsassy

what I'm hearing is: using your relapses as an excuse to drink. But four months might as well be one day in the span of an entire life. Time in sobriety is a weird thing. Two points in time matter. Today, and all the rest of our days. Today, we go to bed sober. The big plan is, we don't drink any more for the rest of our lives. Today is easy. And the rest of your life makes 2 months, 4 months, any span of time before the day you die, completely meaningless. Because if you no longer drink those sober days will pass anyway and the points in time are simply just days that have passed in sobriety.

Your relapses are over. Those days have passed. Today matters. and so does your big plan.

Just relax and move on. If you no longer drink, there really aren't any more questions to ask and your beast does not get any answers and also, does not get to argue with your higher consciousness anymore, because it's all completely simple, you don't have access to alcohol any more so the cravings disappear. You have arrived in what amounts to an apocalyptic land with no access to alcohol and you learn to live in a new way, because that's simply the way it is, now.

The "why do I want it so bad" is gone because it's simply over. There is no more alcohol. You're done.

Your beast dies. It can't do anything with that. It can't get you riled up. It can't reason with you. It can't engage, it can't take over your higher processing and self talk any more because you have ended all access to alcohol forever, so it dies.

and then you have quit.

Grungehead

For me it was a physical, mental and spiritual illness, but for many years I thought if I fixed the physical part (stop drinking) the mental and spiritual part would be fixed by default. Like I said previously I went to hundreds if not thousands of AA meetings and put together some long stretches of sobriety without working the steps, but it was like my alcoholism was just in dormancy waiting for the right situation (usually a life crisis...or perceived crisis) to become activated again.

After 23 years of this and nearing the end I became desperate enough to give the steps a try. Funny how desperation will open one up to options that had never been on the table before. My experience is that I had it all backwards the whole time. Once I fixed my spiritual sickness my physical and mental issues got better as a default.

I understand the hesitancy to do the steps as I avoided them for 23 years. It wasn't so much that I was opposed to the God concept as my parents took me to church regularly as a child and I had a general belief that there was some sort of Higher Power. Over time I may have become somewhat agnostic but had never shut the door on the possibility. Where I always hit the wall was when it came time to take an honest look at my shortcomings, share them with someone else, and make amends for them.

It turned out that by doing those things despite really, really not wanting to do them is what set me free. My obsession for alcohol was lifted at some point during the process of doing steps 4-9 and has not returned. The problem is gone. The struggle is over. And to be honest, by the time I was half way through doing my 5th step with my sponsor I already knew this was the missing link and that I would be doing the rest of the steps.

Just some food for thought Sohard. I have nothing against AVRT and utilized it for a time during my first few months of sobriety. I respect any type of plan that gives that person the positive results they are looking for. But I also believe we have to be honest with ourselves when things aren't working and be open to adding to or changing our plan if it's not working.

GerandTwine

Hi Sohard,

Ok, we’re 12 hours into this experiment, 1/2 a day. 27 half days to go. That adds up to two weeks.

As you go about your regular life, keep an eye out for when thoughts of drinking on June 16th come up.

Consider getting a small spiral tablet to carry with you and write down short notes about all your thoughts and feelings you have about drinking in general and about this plan to drink on that Saturday afternoon. At the end of the day, or whenever you choose to, sit down and go over the notes with a highlighter (or just underline) and identify which are YOU and which are your AV.

Keep us posted on how it’s going.

Thanks,

GT

tomsteve

it is a neurological/brain issue that displays itself in many different ways.
have you read the big book of AA,sohard?
i found it amazing that a book published 28 years before i was born described my thinking and actions pretty darn good.
it also had some pretty good suggestions on how to work at rewiring( and brainwashing because my brain needed washing ) my brain to think and act differently.